The Politics Thread

[Vee]

 

 

[DramatistDreamer]

Nobody's truly surprised by those results in Great Britain, are they?  That's 40+ years of conditioning.

I know I must sound like a broken record because I've been saying this for years (since the referendum years ago) but it's going to be interesting to see what moves Scotland makes after this.

[JaneAusten]

You think there will be another independence vote?  I saw this headline and wondered about that thought until I read the article where in Scotland exit polls showed most people in Scotland voted for the SNP.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-election-gove/no-case-for-new-scottish-independence-vote-if-uk-exit-poll-right-gove-idUSKBN1YG2R7

 

I can't say I am that familiar with the independence movement there, what are your thoughts especially with what will obviously be a full blown Brexit moving forward.  I still wonder how many of the Tories elected are leave or remain, even with them having a greater majority. Was anyone other than Labor pushing for a new vote on Brexit? And even Labor's stance on it was very lukewarm.

Edited December 12, 2019 by JaneAusten

[DramatistDreamer]

 

I'm watching Election Coverage via livestream and there are still people who believe that the results don't look as bad for Labour as people think and it's too early to call it catastrophic for Labour but others give the impression that British Bernie has flopped. 

Labour has made some inroads in certain regions but from what I'm hearing/seeing, not enough to undo what's been happening at the polls in Wales.

 

Some people think that Northern Ireland should be included in the list of possible breakaways but Northern Ireland is far more complicated, imo.  Extraction from the U.K. is likely to be messy for any country that leaves but Scotland is better much positioned to have a cleaner break than N. Ireland.  Scotland has a healthy employment rate and has oil, which still counts as a valuable commodity for now and likely over the next decade, at least.  Given that many Scottish voted to stay with the U.K. because they were promised that the U.K. would stay in the EU, I'm not sure how the U.K. convinces Scotland to stay for the long haul, especially since #Brexit has been so damn messy.  If things were orderly, as the Tories had promised, that aspect might have counted for something in the minds of the Scots but since it has been anything but orderly and been described as a "shambles", I just wonder how many people will now see trying their luck on their own as a republic as not so risky after all.  Because as Mary J. Blige once said "I can do bad all by myself".  Surely much of Scotland (who voted to Remain, as well as heavily Labour today) must be pondering this same idea.

[JaneAusten]

Interesting

 

I was reading a couple of weeks ago about the deal Johnson got Parliament to approve and it was basically the same deal they voted down 3 times with May. You can say Johnson is a bigger BSer or just better at being a fake populist than Trump is who knows, either one. But with that, does that make it any better for Scotland?

 

I would really like to understand how long citizens believe trade deals take to negotiate. It's unrealistic to believe he can have a deal with the EU done in a few months isn't it unless it's May's deal which I believe set the stage for something softer. But then they have trade deals to negotiate all over the world. 

 

And it doesn't look like the media and press in the UK will be changing. It is interesting to see how places like Scotland and maybe Northern Ireland escaped or kept out that overwhelmingly Tory friendly influential media and press.

[DramatistDreamer]

 

 

Part of me feels as though and this is jmo, May wasn't seen as "committed" to the Brexit cause as Johnson and many of the men in her party were determined to get her out of the seat of power and replace her with a man that they thought more passionate about Brexit and yes, even if it meant putting in place a big sh*t talker like Johnson.

 

As for N. Ireland and Scotland...I guess being an outsider has its upside.  I don't know whether the well-heeled U.K. media (comprised mainly of private school boys pretending to be everyman) put either N. Ireland or Scotland very high on their list of priorities.  N. Ireland seemed to be mostly regarded as a problem (or potentially a problem) that needed to be managed.  Scotland's economic status has moved it up in prominence but this has been in the last decade or so.  I remember when I was studying in London, Scotland was mainly seen as this exotic (a world away without really going too far) place where people could take a weekend trip to get away. It was odd but I never really got the sense that Scotland was actually a part of Great Britain.  That was just the sense I got but that was in the 1990s, sentiment may have changed since then.  

 

Johnson has disparaged the idea of Scotland having another referendum but the SNP insists that the British government must respect the will of the Scottish people and the promises made that they would respect Scotland's status as a part of the EU.

Edited December 13, 2019 by DramatistDreamer

[DramatistDreamer]

Labour continues to get those "L"s tonight. Whew!  Some area named Workington, which had been Labour for 100 years just went to the Conservatives. 

Meanwhile SNP continues to "clean up" in Scotland. 

 

EDT: And turnout was down?  Really? At a pivotal time like this??

Edited December 13, 2019 by DramatistDreamer

[Vee]

I had a feeling this was coming for some time, especially after Corbyn's horrific live interview recently. When pressed again and again on supporting or rejecting Brexit and antisemitism in his party he firmly and resolutely had absolutely nothing to say. I've rarely seen anything that pathetic, let alone from a supposed progressive champion. Our worst on the far left are nowhere near as spineless and tone-deaf. I hope this is a lesson to ours.

 

I have deep sympathy for my British friends, but if I know anything about Britain it's that it can persevere through the darkness. I have no such loyalty for Labour.

[DramatistDreamer]

An aspect that kept getting mentions is that many thought that Corbyn focused too much on Brexit and not enough on other concerns of the electorate. I'm not sure how true (or not) that is, I will have to ask some of my friends and fam on this one.

 

I'm not so sure about the far left being far better.  The Young Turks spring to mind. 

Some guy named "Nick the Incredible Flying Brick" wearing an outrageous hat is standing on the stage with other candidates, including Jeremy Corbyn for elections in Islington.

Jeremy Corbyn maintains his seat.

FWIW, the Brexit Party did pretty awful in these elections.  Maybe the sentiment that people wanted focus on issues other than Brexit carries some truth to it.

[Vee]

I meant our candidates.

[DramatistDreamer]

 

Presidential candidates?  Because that one guy from the Young Turks is apparently running for office and Bernie apparently he has Sanders' support.

[Vee]

I meant the presidency, but okay.

[DramatistDreamer]

The consensus on the livestream that I was watching (Johnson started talking and I turned it off) seemed to be that Corbyn lacked humility. He kept his seat but it will be interesting to see whether he remains in his position within the party. Ultimately, he's the leader of the Labour party, so it's Corbyn's Labour party that lost. 

 

Maybe it's me but imo, the U.S. and the U.K. seem to be on parallel tracks these days. Maybe I'm being 'glass half empty' but I just don't see that much of a difference between the two.

[DRW50]

 

One of the criticisms I'd read was that some felt he didn't care enough about Brexit, which led to claims he not-so-secretly was fine with leaving the EU. He seemed to want to focus more on what were seen as socialist issues or bread-and-butter issues, in an era where the latter is increasingly irrelevant to the media and to the public vote even though poverty has surged in the UK and you are hearing more and more Conservative politicians return to openly saying that people who are hungry or poor have only themselves to blame. 

 

Johnson is a complete con artist and sleaze, but that seems to be what's in vogue these days. Lots of goofy quips and made for TV moments as the NHS is gutted, xenophobia soars, and people are put into the workhouse...

 

I read that Jo Swinson, the Lib Dem leader and one of the main agitators for the election because she believed she could become PM, has lost her seat. The entire Lib Dem strategy of hoping people would hate Corbyn enough to turn to them as kingmakers seems to have backfired, as everyone with a brain knew it would. The best part of that result is probably that most of the candidates who have blatantly run here, there and everywhere this year looking for a party so they could get reelected seem to have lost.

 

As for our candidates, not on the anti-Semitism issue, but I could see just about any of them having a car crash interview at this point, especially Biden or Warren. I just hope it won't get to that point...and these days I don't think those interviews matter in the US as much as they may have in the past. We're just too polarized. The UK wasn't quite there - yet - but they're pretty much where we are now, just with less religious mania and, for now, a better medical service.

 

I will say it's been amusing to see the St. Bernie supporters so obsessed and enraged with destroying Warren and Pete Buttigieg (especially the latter) that they haven't even noticed or cared about Biden regaining more and more of his old strength in the polls. If he, someone they see as the great corrupt ogliarchy and blah blah blah, gets the nomination, they have only themselves and their endless need for holy wars, to blame.

[DramatistDreamer]

 

Initially, I think that was the main criticism of Corbyn just after the referendum, that he didn't embrace the Remain campaign, under suspicions that he may have been a closet Leave proponent.  That's not how he campaigned.  I will say though that from what I saw, he seemed to try to split the difference between trying to grabbing those pro-EU voters and the 'red meat' issues that appeal to Labourites.  And in the waning weeks of his campaign he seemed to throw himself at the issue of the EU/Remain but by that time, I think many voters believed that Brexit was a 'done deal' and just wanted someone who they believe would negotiate the best deal for Great Britain. JMO but I think that the Brits are delusional if they think Brexit is going to be anything less than hardship. 

 

I have been following the deadly shooting at a Kosher deli in NJ and I was struck by how the media desperately tried to tamp down any suggestion that it could have been a hate crime, though to most people with a brain it was obvious that it was. The media is carrying water for Trump (who pays lip service to being against Antisemitism)I don't think the U.S. has any moral ground over the U.K.  I've had experience living and studying in both countries and find both to be vehemently racist, the difference is that the U.K. doesn't bother to try to hide this, while the U.S. tries to make one believe that you can ascend to any height in life irrespective of your color and gender, points to the few examples that managed knowing that it's not true.