My mistake! He really tore him apart!

MM is uncertain like the rest of us, but he also knows RC better than the rest of us. So he's saying, wait.

I found those quotes are saying quite the opposite. I can disagree with you and still accept your view.

I just think he was diplomatic and basically said: Carlivati - good grief! 

Well, I'm a Y&R boy, so in the golden years, Jill and Kay loved and hated. The love was very deep...hidden...but it was what clearly drew them back together again and again.

My hope is that, at some level, the result is: She has some good feeling for him IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING. Of course she has to bury this, and be outraged, and erase all sympathy. But deeper, just deeper, I hope she always also remembers that connection.

I KNOW this is "sick"...but a sick relationship is honestly the very best thing when done right. (Think Mason & CC on Santa Barbara).

I get what you're saying. And yes, I think deep in the pit of her soul Marty will always have a keenly-tuned understanding of Todd that she wishes she didn't. But it should take a lot of time after this, if ever again, for her to even begin to be able to listen to that. You may be able to understand a monster, but if the monster keeps hurting you how can you allow yourself to continue retracing that ground while preserving yourself? Marty is smarter than Tea or the much more inexperienced Evangeline or even Blair, because she in the past has known how to walk away.

I found those quotes are saying quite the opposite. I can disagree with you and still accept your view.

I just think he was diplomatic and basically said: Carlivati - good grief! 

You don't accept anything positive anyone says about the man's work, and you never have. It's a little late to start playing "Hail Fellow Well Met" with me. My attitude towards you is learned.

I am breathless. Breathless! Complex relationships, mixtures of love and hate, are "cheap...offensive"??

Oh well, I also like many retcons. So I'm just a loser .

Those are not complex relationships. The whole story is quite pretentious and offensive, he wants to make a European art movie in the American daytime enviroment. And add a little grittiness and gloom of British soaps. It clearly isn't going to work.

It's predictable because we know what is going to happen. And knowing how bad the subwriters on OLTL are, we know the climax and dénouement are going to suck.

Lazy because it feels like it is too easy for him to write this. He poured all his energy into this story that even he knows sucks.

Etc. But you get the point.

You don't accept anything positive anyone says about the man's work, and you never have. It's a little late to start playing "Hail Fellow Well Met" with me. My attitude towards you is learned.

I accept it, but I find it hilarious. And a gross exaggeration.

Edited October 2, 200817 yr by Sylph

My hope is that, at some level, the result is: She has some good feeling for him IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING.

I told myself I wasn't going to discuss this story anymore mainly because the damage is done. It's like trying to do CPR on a cadaver mid autopsy but I wanted to point out: she already did have that. She testified for him at his last rape trial. She found a sense of peace and they had reached a resoultion. Higley blew that to hell when they brought Marty back and Ron is just building on that misstep.

Higley's handling of Marty was far less complex and three dimensional than RC's. Higley's Marty was a simple character: Her Marty hates Todd, period, but downplays their rape as "something that happened in college when we were drunk kids" so DH can pretty Todd up for Evangeline.

We don't know the "real" Marty as RC will write her yet, though he did do some work with the CC Marty. During that time Marty and Todd were able to grudgingly work together during the hunt for Marcie. He's also brought Marty's innate intelligence, strength and fire back, even as she totters around in nightgowns. And whatever happens here, we know her relationship with Todd goes beyond just "I hate you," which is how DH saw it...negating all the work that had been done with them since. (Yes, Marty left in 1997 decrying Todd as "a curse," but she came back in 2004 recovered and willing to advocate for him, so obviously she had mellowed, as stilted as I found that guest appearance.)

Higley's handling of Marty was far less complex and three dimensional than RC's. Higley's Marty was a simple character: Her Marty hates Todd, period, but downplays their rape as "something that happened in college when we were drunk kids" so DH can pretty Todd up for Evangeline.

We agree that Higley made a mess of Marty. But CC's Marty I saw didn't downplay the rape at all. She was 100% in victim mode. Higley erased all the character's progress and turned her into a weepy, hyperventaliting mess all the better for McBain. Ron made her a bed-bound amnesiac.

Whatever. He's done what he set out to do. He put his mark on a classic soap story. And it was so much easier than writing one himself. All of the controversy, none of the actual creativity. Just add rapist and stir.

Edited October 2, 200817 yr by marceline

Ron made her a bed-bound amnesiac.

And somehow, the bed-bound amnesiac is much tougher than the fully mobile recast.

We agree that Higley made a mess of Marty. But CC's Marty I saw didn't downplay the rape at all. She was 100% in victim mode. Higley erased all the character's progress and turned her into a weepy, hyperventaliting mess all the better for McBain. Ron made her a bed-bound amnesiac.

Whatever. He's done what he set out to do. He put his mark on a classic soap story. And it was so much easier than writing one himself. All of the controversy, none of the actual creativity. Just add rapist and stir.

And all that constructed with such glib and unshakable confidence with plot lines that lost contact with earth to stave off the boredom and cover up the truth that the imagination has all gone.

Your thesaurus-like phrasing convinces me of your obscure point which I cannot understand.

I told myself I wasn't going to discuss this story anymore mainly because the damage is done. It's like trying to do CPR on a cadaver mid autopsy but I wanted to point out: she already did have that. She testified for him at his last rape trial. She found a sense of peace and they had reached a resoultion. Higley blew that to hell when they brought Marty back and Ron is just building on that misstep.

Yes, I watched that. I was actually more appalled by that...because she just swooped in and forgave, kind of.

I am able to watch these two fantastic performers together every day in the current story...and they have a connection that touches me...when much else on this show does not. Therefore, I feel it will not be possible to totally sever the connection when the inevitable happens.

Sylph says it is lazy, because we know what will happen. Not me. I surmise what will happen to a POINT, but I have no clue what the aftermath beyond that will be.

Your thesaurus-like phrasing convinces me of your obscure point which I cannot understand.

And I couldn't care less about what you say! And I'm startled that you're still persecuting me!

And all that constructed with such glib and unshakable confidence with plot lines that lost contact with earth to stave off the boredom and cover up the truth that the imagination has all gone.

Well getting away from discussion of Rev. Ron and the Church of Derivative Hackery....

I think Malone's interview gives a pretty good road map about why thoughtful writers aren't interested in daytime. It's clear there's SO much he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't say about how the business changed during his years in it. That's the stuff I'd love to have heard about.

Well getting away from discussion of Rev. Ron and the Church of Derivative Hackery....

I think Malone's interview gives a pretty good road map about why thoughtful writers aren't interested in daytime. It's clear there's SO much he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't say about how the business changed during his years in it. That's the stuff I'd love to have heard about.

It is precisely for THIS reason that we need a better soap press. Sadly, I guess a better soap press is not economically viable any more.

And I couldn't care less about what you say! And I'm startled that you're still persecuting me!

I thought the whole board was persecuting you and your finely tuned sense of right and wrong and good writing and bad, Sylph, when did it come down to just me? I'm not offended, I just want to know what date and time stamp I should put on my medal. BTW, "persecution" = always a TKO in rational debate. You can't lose with that one!

It is precisely for THIS reason that we need a better soap press. Sadly, I guess a better soap press is not economically viable any more.

I don't think it has much to do with economics. I think it's more like they just don't give a [!@#$%^&*] because these are "just soaps." Just like some of the production staff they interview.

Well getting away from discussion of Rev. Ron and the Church of Derivative Hackery....

I think Malone's interview gives a pretty good road map about why thoughtful writers aren't interested in daytime. It's clear there's SO much he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't say about how the business changed during his years in it. That's the stuff I'd love to have heard about.

I'm thankful to Nelson for the interview, but I believe that a real journalist would have gotten all that and more from Malone.

I thought the whole board was persecuting you and your finely tuned sense of right and wrong and good writing and bad, Sylph, when did it come down to just me? I'm not offended, I just want to know what date and time stamp I should put on my medal. BTW, "persecution" = always a TKO in rational debate. You can't lose with that one!

It was only and always you. But... Since this is totally destroying this thread, I suggest we stop here. Anyway, I will.