40 minutes ago, Vee said:

It was "Heart of a Lord"! And Lion's Heart Manor, Victor's evidently-secret pleasuredome, out in the Lenape forest with the omnipresent mystical fog that made Antonio hallucinate Arthurian-tinged visions of Keri and Jessica! I'll never let go. I think someone moved into or used Lion's Heart after the Santis but I can't recall who, I always wanted that ridiculous location brought back (much like I was convinced Gary Tomlin's beloved Llantano Mountain rock quarry was the ruins of Eterna).

Malone II was often insane and ridiculous but I agree it was never boring, which is why I remain so clear about the details even if it was often like watching a poet with a brain tumor live everyday. But I'll disagree with you about the gothic or fantasy elements being new - with so much of Malone and Griffith's first run going up online recently (including the key transition period in '91 finally being available, and all of '92) there is so much more mystic-themed stuff and fantasy eps than I realized, many of them I enjoy. (Even the diamond heist, etc. stuff on AW and Bourbon Street IIRC began with Alex Olanov vs. Tina and Cain in 1992, over some Egyptian jewels.) It's just that the production, tone, scripts and overall scripts were frankly much better in Malone's first run. Lord, we're so off-topic.

Aww I've missed your posts.  I think this is all spot on.  To be honest, my memory of the Heart of a Lord story was that it was partly undone by really poor casting.  No, a Mists of Llanview approach to OLTL was probably not what was needed or wanted for the show at the time, but at least the ideas were interesting (and, at least as a concept, less schlocky than when Rauch-era OLTL went into fantasy and sci-fi.)  I wish someone interviewing Malone had called him out on that aspect and asked about the approach (I suppose someone could still ask Griffith about it but, even if Griffith did apparently create himself key stories and characters during their run as a duo--the development of Todd especially--and I think Malone's work at OLTL was *always* better, during both runs, when Griffith was co-headwriter, I think his main strength was just helping Malone develop his ideas into the soap mode.)

And of course you're completely right that the Gothic element, while I'd argue not the focus, was always prevalent during the first run--Hell, I think if it wasn't Billy Douglas that got me watching it was the whole "Max/Luna/Death" storyline.  Given Malone's interests, it's no wonder why he was such a natural fit for an Agnes Nixon soap (and it's amazing that Gottlieb thought to ask him, especially since she came to the show--it would seem--with zero prior knowledge about soaps.)

1 minute ago, EricMontreal22 said:

And of course you're completely right that the Gothic element, while I'd argue not the focus, was always prevalent during the first run--Hell, I think if it wasn't Billy Douglas that got me watching it was the whole "Max/Luna/Death" storyline.  Given Malone's interests, it's no wonder why he was such a natural fit for an Agnes Nixon soap (and it's amazing that Gottlieb thought to ask him, especially since she came to the show--it would seem--with zero prior knowledge about soaps.)

I'll move my reply on this over to the OLTL thread.

27 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

And, Bobby Reno became Shane Roberts & Lila Roberts was terrified of storms!!! From race car driver to doctor who used to fly planes. And, Lila could not push the Southern belle any harder.

Woah, I hadn't ever thought about that--definitely character changes towards the more Southern Gothic.  I admit at that point I knew nothing about Another World except for its fabled history I had read about in books, but I decided to check it out because Malone would be writing.  I remember--like what often happens--at first everyone seemed excited by the energy he brought to the show, but pretty quickly the lustre wore off and it was clear he was a bad fit, or P&G weren't allowing him to do what he wanted to do (or probably both.)  I remember Connie/Marlena wrote an article about it

12 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Woah, I hadn't ever thought about that--definitely character changes towards the more Southern Gothic. 

Yes, definitely!

I was really impressed though that Malone wanted to work from an office at the studio because he likes actors & likes to get to know them, etc. 

12 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I admit at that point I knew nothing about Another World except for its fabled history I had read about in books, but I decided to check it out because Malone would be writing.  I remember--like what often happens--at first everyone seemed excited by the energy he brought to the show,

Of course, big excitement that he was coming, very real anticipation!

12 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

but pretty quickly the lustre wore off and it was clear he was a bad fit, or P&G weren't allowing him to do what he wanted to do (or probably both.)  I remember Connie/Marlena wrote an article about it

Yes, one of the sub-writers said that everything MM pitched they shot down, which I'm sure means that MOST of what he wanted to write, P&G said a hard no. However, Digest did an article where he named the 10 things he was most proud of during his time at AW & all I remember is that I hated it all. LOL!!!! The only thing specifically I recall from the article was that he wrote that he made Jake into a kind of a Cary Grant type & I'm like, uh, Jake is a blue collar dude with a chip on his shoulder, wtf Cary Grant type?!!! 

 

7 hours ago, chrisml said:

Morgan Fairchild's character should have had a purpose from the beginning. They relied on her name alone, and as much as I do like her, I doubt many soap fans were tuning in just for her. They should have integrated her into the last months of Loving to get potential viewers to care. 

 

5 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I think that really was the issue with Fairchild--she largely seemed to be there to be there. 

ICAM!!

 

15 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

ICAM!!

 

Totally agreed!

There were so many things wrong with "The City." I don't know if the blame can solely be placed on Morgan Fairchild's shoulders. Sydney didn't have enough connections to be the big bad bitch of Soho that they really wanted (needed?) her to be. Fairchild hasn't bothered me in what I've see, but Joel Fabiani is REALLY bad. Like embarassingly bad. I think they wanted to make Sydney more ambigious with the arrivla of Jared, but Jared was a non-starter with Fabiani in role. I would have recasted immediately and tried to make Jared work.

The storytelling in the first half of the show is salacious as hell without the depth needed to make it work. It was Agnes Nixon strained through a Rikki Lake filter with lawyer Jocelyn moonlighting as a prostitute because her father exchanged her with other men as a kid for sex while also having an affair with Alex, who was old enough to be her father. Or the barely played relationship between mysterious model Azure C. and the embodiment of machismo Bernardo only picking up when they finally revealed that Azure was trans. I think both stories had potential to be very topical and very interesting, but the seedy misogyny needed the strenght of a Wendy Riche to make palpable. Instead of Levinson's GH, we get something so staged it should have been on Jerry Springer. 

In one of my "Loving" speculative fictions, Morgan played a recast Ann Alden Forbes who swoops in around the time of Cabot's (natural causes) death and causes havoc since Clay would have been written out (Parlato was leaving the show in 1995 either way). I would have kept Roscoe Born around as Dane Hammond.

 

Besides Dennis Parlato, were there other Loving actors who were going to leave in 1995 no matter what? I think we've talked about the oddity of Ava, a department store executive, not going to New York.

No one that I know of was leaving other than Amelia Heinle since her three year contract would have been up in January, 1996. The show would have also had to deal with Wesley Addy's death in January, 1996. 

 

Did I miss a beat or did someone say in this thread (or another, we've been all over the shop in various threads today) that Agnes consulted on The City? I can't find the mention now. I know Jane Elliot apparently had some BTS role while also appearing on-air, and I know Linda Gottlieb was involved in the Loving Murders (and maybe TC) production-wise. 

Edited February 1Feb 1 by Vee

17 minutes ago, Vee said:

Did I miss a beat or did someone say in this thread (or another, we've been all over the shop in various threads today) that Agnes consulted on The City? I can't find the mention now. I know Jane Elliot apparently had some BTS role while also appearing on-air, and I know Linda Gottlieb was involved in the Loving Murders (and maybe TC) production-wise. 

I remember an SPW interview which had Jane, while on set as Tracy, making changes to the lighting. 

(wish she could do that with GH but of course that isn't her job anymore)

49 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

In one of my "Loving" speculative fictions, Morgan played a recast Ann Alden Forbes who swoops in around the time of Cabot's (natural causes) death and causes havoc since Clay would have been written out (Parlato was leaving the show in 1995 either way). I would have kept Roscoe Born around as Dane Hammond.

I liked Roscoe as Nick, but he would have made sense as a Dane recast. Morgan as Ann also makes a lot of sense. 

I think this also would have been a natural time to bring back Lorna, maybe with a teenage adopted daughter (as otherwise she'd be blood related to most of the younger men in Corinth we knew of - although I guess there was Ava's son). She and Tess might team up against Ava but then when Lorna sees how wicked Tess is, she double crosses her. And you could pair Lorna up with Danny, if he was still on the show.

Edited February 1Feb 1 by DRW50

Someone (not sure if they want to be named but if they do, I'll happily give them credit) kindly gave me an hour of clips (with some commercials) from summer 1984 and an hour of clips (with some commercials) from spring 1985. I don't know if these had ever been up before, but I don't see them at present. I don't want to clog up the thread so I'm just going to post the first link. 

You can already see some of the big shift in the show from only summer 84 to spring 85.

Chris Marcantel is such a little live wire as Curtis - a shame later on they just wrote him as a psycho.

There's a big argument between Ava and Stacey at about 25 minutes. Not sure if it is their first but it's a defining moment. 

(this is still Patty Lotz Ava, so different from what we'd have with Roya and Lisa)

Edited February 1Feb 1 by DRW50

I'm glad those got to you. Thanks.

Great stuff! And you know me, always trying to pinpoint dates. Assuming these are consecutive episodes, the National Enquirer ad in the first video places them as airing during the week of Sept. 10, 1984.

8 minutes ago, Franko said:

Great stuff! And you know me, always trying to pinpoint dates. Assuming these are consecutive episodes, the National Enquirer ad in the first video places them as airing during the week of Sept. 10, 1984.

Thanks so much. Really appreciate the help. I'll add that.