Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[TheyStartedOnSoaps]

But you have to remember NBC was raiding talent from ABC - they got Brian Frons, they got Pat Falken Smith and her ENTIRE writing staff from General Hospital, they got Thaao Penghlis, they got Marcy Walker. That is what made ABC Executives nervous that Agnes Nixon would be next to be poached by NBC, if she didn't get what she wanted.  

Edited April 13 by TheyStartedOnSoaps

[DRW50]

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[dc11786]

I think shifting "Ryan's Hope" and "Loving" was foolsih, in the long run. There was no major bump for "Loving." RH had been stronger than it was when it moved in 1984, but it creatively rebounds in the mid-to-late 1980s in a way that "Loving" doesn't in the same period of time. 

I think all the daytime personalities behind the scenes are much more complex characters themselves than we often given them credit for with their insecurities and eccentricities. Patrick Mulcahey's "school marm" comment about Nixon seems to shed some light on that, as does the film Labine's grandchildren made about stealing the ashes of a late family pet. Could Nixon and Labine have been enemies? Possibly. 

In trying to add something new to the old why "Loving" failed debate, I will add network interference in the creative process. Nixon's soaps launched with a layer of provocative realism set in the very modern worlds. The "Loving" bible hints at that sort of edge with Merrill's romantic outlook, Mike's PTSD, Billy's impotency, the incest, and Lorna's social issue-less interracial marriage to Ron Turner's son. Most of this was either openly scuttled by the network (Merrill, the incest), most likely overruled (the impotency and interracial marriage), or watered down (the PTSD story). Mike's story was suppose to be relatively dark with Patrick's death during a campus drug raid that resulted in his heart attack with Mike blaming himself followed by a twisted sexual relationship with Rita Mae that led him to beating Rita Mae's younger lover Curtis, who Mike suspected was involved in the drug ring. If ABC Daytime was truly afraid of losing Nixon, maybe they should have given her a little more leeway. I'm curious if the rumored Ava is biracial story was more than just a myth. 

The only real provocative long story Nixon is able to get through is Shana's involvement with Jim, the priest. I don't think that was enough because Jim's family ties were so stripped down that the impact of him leaving the church is diluted. Maybe if they played up the Donovan family ties to Jim, it could have had a bit more meat. I don't think the Jonathan is demonic story worked as well as others did. 

@DRW50 I watched a bit of that episode before you mentioned the Ava / Sheri scenes. Those scenes did stand out, but I'm never 100% sure that Taggart understood that Ava was pregnant, miscarried, and then bought the baby. In 1993, Stacey brings up the baby story when Ava pretends she's pregnant to keep Leo from runnning off to Shana, and Stacey thinking Ava lied the whole time made sense given that Stacey hated Dinahlee for years for ALMOST sleeping with her husband. But Sheri knew the truth. I didn't watch it all, but I will probably go back at some point. 

[EricMontreal22]

That IS a good point and fair.  I may be giving Nixon too much credit--it wouldn't be the first time--but I think she had so many more ties to ABC than those talents did (especially with AMC--which she was still involved in even if Washam was HW--being still at such a high) that it would have taken a lot more for her to make the move.

@dc11786 Those are great points, and yes, the bible is full of great stuff (and the bible was before Marland got involved) that simply didn't make it on screen and it's not easy to guess who made that decision, at least in the majority of the cases.

[DRW50]

I wonder how much of ABC's decision was based on RH still being in a hole ratings-wise when the show improved and brought back Labine and Mayer in 1983. If they felt nothing was left, then giving the show to a new timeslot may have been more feasible. 

You may have to tell me, but I think Ava did quietly say, "I lost a baby, too." At first I thought she meant the baby she lost in 1988, but now that you mention the story in more detail (I've never really seen any of it), she may have meant the baby she lost while with Jack. 

I need to read the bible at some point as I never get around to it. I had forgotten they were going to have an interracial marriage. We went from that to no major black characters for 10 years.

[Forever8]

You wouldn't have a link or access to that bible, would you? 

[DRW50]

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I wonder if they made Jim Davies dye his hair or if it just went grey/white and they didn't object.

These early promos do a good job of making what feels like a very generic show seem interesting. 

[dc11786]

I think there are interesting elements in the bible, but it also feels half-baked. Only a couple of the characters are well defined. I still maintain that Nixon should have been headwriter for at least a year. I like what Marland does with the show, but it is very different than the world that Nixon imagined even when elements were rebranded. 

At times, I also have to wonder how well some of those elements were going to be used. I suspect Nixon's proposed AIDS 1983 plot was just what ended up happening with Angie and Charles in 1994 when Angie was stabbed by a needle by a drug addict who may or may not have been HIV-positive. I suspect Noreen, who was looking to have a baby with Mike, would have been stabbed by a needle which potentially was infected leading Noreen to fear that she may have the disease. As a result, Mike's sexual appetite would have been satsified in other ways. I am not sure it would have the heft that it could have been, but I guess I may be looking at a story from a 21st century lens for a disease that was only just being uncovered. 

It's an interesting point regarding Labine & Mayer's 1983 return failing to ignite the ratings, Also, by late 1984, Pat Falken Smith's RH was failing to light the world on fire. I do think some of the late 1980s RH (Rick / Ryan , Johnno / Lizzie / Ben / Nancy) was stronger material than what "Loving" produced in the same period. Especially when you consider that the Kelly Conway story would have been playing concurrently with a lot of those stories. 

I think I heard the line and, like you, I felt it was about her 1988 miscarriage, but that may have been Lisa Peluso's read on the situation. I felt her dragging Sandy up to the room with Kate and Sheri was really emphasizing that. 

I'm also not sure Sheri / Ava having that animosity in 1988 fit with Sheri's 1987 return where she ends up giving birth at Ava and Alex's wedding and naming the child after Ava. The Watleys should have been Loving's answer to the Frames coming out of the woodwork to cause havoc for Ava in the early 1990s the way Steve's siblings did for him on Another World. I think having Patty (I think that was her name) as this strong, independent woman after overcoming all the obstacles from the medical procedures as a child arrive could have been a nice conterpoint to the more frivilous (at times) Ally. Scheming Johnny Watley wanting the faux birthright that had been promised to him and leading Ava down the path back into schemer would have been enjoyable. And I would have had Ava Watley, obviously going by some nickname, as sort of filling the role of Ally had Laura Sisk Wright had made the choice to depart. There were other kids too so there was an opportunity to play with that some more.   

I think Ralph Ellis and Millee Taggert/Tom King, each  briefly, tried to expand the Hindmans by adding in Art's kids Dave and Tally. Under Ellis, Dave was an illiterate basketball player being pushed through classes by his coach with Jim Vochek acting as his academic advocate in Jim's role as guidance counselor. This was all a subplot around the transition from Kelly / Rob to Ned / April. Dave and Tally were both around late 1980s-early 1990s, but they weren't carrying any story. And of course Minnie was supporting. 

[NothinButAttitude]

I just watched an episode from 1985 that was recently posted and what was going on with Ann? Jesus, her confidence was in the pits. She just let Dane run all over her. 

[dc11786]

Anne was very underdeveloped in the bible. The bulk of interest in her story lied in Merrill with Roger's interest in politics giving him at least a semblance of an identity. Anne was nothing more than qualifiers to other characters (Roger's wife, Cabot's daughter, Lorna's mother, etc.). I feel this sort of haunts the character. 

When Callan White assumes the role, the show starts to pivot Anne a bit into the business field to build up the rivalry with Shana, her newly introduced half-sister. Anne chooses business to escape her grief over losing Roger, while also sorta carrying on a bit with Mike Donovan, who she had a brief fling or flirtation with in 1983 when Mike renovated the guest cottage for the Aldens. The fourth wheel on the quad was Dane Hammond, who had brought Shana to town to hurt the Aldens after they had fired him for shady business practices while working at Alden Enterprises. 

Anne and Mike fizzle pretty quick and the story mostly became Mike / Shana / Jim while Anne falls under Dane's control. I believe Dane and Anne's initial connection becomes Dane's discovery that the son that he had been denied was Jack Forbes, who Anne and Roger had adopted after Jack's biological mother Linda Henderson died in a car accident with her husband (who had been assumed to be Jack's father). Anne and Dane's connection made her persona non grata among the Aldens which was only enhanced in late 1984 when Dane and Anne married. Also, at some point, Anne had developed a drinking problem. 

In 1985, I believe Cabot has a heart attack around March and Dane manages to seize control over AE, while also being slowly seduced by the newly arrived Gwyneth Alden. I think Anne is deeply aware that Gwyn and Dane have a growing attraction, most of her family cannot stand her because she has chosen Dane, and she's an alcoholic. Her only friend is Harry Sowolsky who was in cahoots with Dane. 

[Soaplovers]

I think Ann being under developed in the bible was done on purpose.  her whole identity was tied up being Cabot/Isabelle's daughter, Roger's Wife, and Jack/Lorna's mother.  She was raised to not have any sort of agency for herself.  

The early episodes showed Ann carrying on the tradition with her adoration/favoring of Jack over her daughter Lorna.  Had the casting/writing been a little stronger... Ann/Lorna could have had years of story with their mother/daughter conflict.

In fact, I think Marland's inability to write a character like Ann (who seemed more like a Nixon type of character) is why she suffered and eventually she was supplanted by Gwyneth by 1984.. who had a stronger presence and was played by a stronger actress.

The show seemed more interested in writing Gwyneth/Trisha.. who were more the typical mother/daughter trope as opposed to Ann/Lorna.. where a writer with imagination could have written to their organic conflict.

The show's inability/disinterest in writing for Lorna always fascinated me because she was the perfect grey character.  Not all bad, not all good and was played by a great actress Susan Walters.  

The 1986 episodes available show Lorna as basically background/greek chorus.. when she should have been one of the lead characters.  And once Walters quits the show, any sort of interest/appeal of the underwritten character is gone.

Edited April 19 by Soaplovers

[dc11786]

There are  a lot characters in the Loving bible which come off as little more than a name. I would agree that part of the structual issues to the show are directly related to the clashing styles of the two writers at the center of the drama. 

From what I recall, the Roger and Merrill affair wasn't meant to be end game so I was left wondering what would happen to Roger and Anne's marriage. If I were Marland, and I read the bible, I wouldn't know what to do with Anne either. In turn, the pivot with Anne in 1984 with Roger being presumed dead and Anne deciding to enter the business world felt like a more Marland style development for the character. While White is green in the early material I've seen of hers, she developed into a pretty compelling performer by mid-1984, in my opinion, btu starts to slid back when it was becoming more heavy with the drinking and the animosity with Gwyneth. I felt Shana / Anne was a dynamic that could have gone on for years, just like the Lorna / Anne could have as well. 

Lorna loses a lot of steam, in my opinion, the minute Marland leaves the door. Her modeling career and her relationship with Linc Beecham kept her in the thick of the family corporate drama (I believe she ahd sold her AE stocks to Dane in order to advance her modelling career). Once the show introduces Rebekah and Zona Beecham, the story is pretty much over. Nixon, and or Levinson, pivoting Lorna to put upon heroine was a mistake. And I have absoltuely no use for anything O'Hara Parker had to do as Lorna. 

Trisha and Gwyneth were such the inverse of Lorna and Anne. It's a shame that they couldn't find a way to trade off on how those relationships worked. When I consider alternate worlds for Loving, I've always thought about what could have happened if the show went with a Steve / Trisha / Lorna triangle with Steve / Lorna having a sorta Fallon / Michael Culhane style relationship that was mostly sexual, but with each acknowledging the other for who they were. And I would have had Gwyneth pushing Steve / Lorna to keep Trisha / Steve apart with an eventual Trisha / Lorna rivalry as well as layered relationship s between Anne / Trish and Lorna / Gwyn. 

[Soaplovers]

Marland wasn't good at writing for complex female characters so it would make sense that he couldn't make heads or tails on Anne and the potential of the Anne/Lorna mother and daughter relationship.

His writing of Gwyn/Trisha's mother/daughter conflict was basically a blue print for his writing of Lucinda/Lily.  Except that in this case, Gwyn was in the wrong and Trisha wasn't an entitled brat. 

And I think once Nixon came back in mid 1985, she couldn't get a read on the Anne nor Lorna characters since they were changed too much by the Marland era so she leaned in on their romantic lives vs their professional lives.   She probably found more inspiration from the Kate/Ava relationship and their dynamic then she did from Ann/Lorna or Gwyn/Trisha.

I like your idea of a Trisha/Lorna/Steve triangle.  It would have saved the show from creating Cecelia Thompson (a 6 episode character that ended up lasting a year and played by three completely different actresses).

[DRW50]

Thanks again for all the reminders (of this as well as Ann's writing issues - I do think Callan White is a good actress, but Christine Tudor does pop and it's also easier to write for a character like Gwyn, at least in the '80s). Those are great ideas about what could have been with the Rescotts. I'd forgotten about the money they were cheated out of and which Kate forgave. Having them in conflict with the Aldens would have been very easy drama. 

Sometimes I wonder if Carly was so heavy in story (story that all ultimately went nowhere...) it made the show wary of bringing in more relations. You'd think that as Ava and Kate were such Agnes Nixon characters she might have had more interest in their backstory during her 93-94 run.

You're right about the scene with Sherrie and Ava in the 1989 episode being a bit out of nowhere, although I guess we could say tensions flared up because Ava was trying to freeze Sherrie out of Kate's recovery.

Sometimes I wonder what Marland would have done with Trisha if he'd stayed with the show longer. Several months after his exit, Cecilia arrives. I have seen little of her, but on paper we might say she is a blue-collar contrast to Trisha, similar to Meg and Lily, or Nola and Morgan. The difference is Trisha rarely seems to be written as entitled or elitist. 

By Loving '80s standards Cecilia lasts a fairly long time. I can never remember if Colleen Dion (the longest lasting Cecilia) wanted to leave or if the show was just done with the character.

Even later on when the show delved into class conflict in her marriage to Trucker, it's more about Trucker's insecurities rather than Tricia being a big snob. She always seems to want to work hard with the opportunities given to her by her status, she is generally kind and understanding, if a bit out of touch at times.

It's a credit to Noelle Beck that Trisha remains a compelling character even without any real flaws and with some iffy stories (like the whole Giff mess, which I don't even like to sit through).

Edited April 20 by DRW50

[Soaplovers]

From what Rebecca Staab said in a Locher Room interview, Cecilia was supposed to have been a 6 episode stint.. and was more like a Madonna/Cyndi Lauper esque character.  However, the show liked her and kept writing more episodes for her without wanting to sign her to a contract.  She booked Jessie on GL and her agent told the show on a Friday that she would not be coming back to work after that day since she booked a contract role so the show had to scramble to recast the role since she was supposed to come back the following Monday to tape.

I saw an episode with Alice Haining playing Cecilia.. and she didn't come across as blue collar at all.  I never saw Colleen Dion's take on the character.