Sorry about that second page. I'll put it up again later.

I couldn't believe she'd actually auditioned for Tina - it's just too much of a fit, like one of those fanfic fantasies you have in your head. It's a shame OLTL never hired her after she left Loving. She could have been Blair, or a recast Blair.

Closing credits at about 1:18.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHvqODBUfYQ

Promo at about 2:30. I'm not sure about running an ad on "a different kind of soap" and running a promo for the oldest soap story ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54m_aA5Gwsc

RM would have been perfect on OLTL as Cord's half-sister and Maria's daughter w/ Al Roberts. (No, Cord never had a sister...that we know of. Still..., lol.) Watching her go head-to-head with Tina while simultaneously outdoing her (and Gabrielle) in skulduggery would have been awesome.

Soap Opera's Greatest Stories & Stars Vol.8 #3 april 1984

Soap Opera Weekly Vol.1 #24 05-07-1990

She also looks and reacts a lot like Barbara Luna in that ad.

She never looks the same in any two shots. And wow she was a stunningly beautiful woman.

She's a little exotic compared to Lisa Peluso - it's not the same, clearly, but I wonder if they got any criticism similar to OLTL with the Mia/Kassie switch. Probably not.

I can't remember. Didn't Frankie say something during Olive's run about how he was filming someone for a documentary, he was filming an ambulance or something, and he saw a person dying, and he wished that he had been able to save the man's life (which led him to become a doctor)? Didn't this have to do with some relative of Simone's or Mia's? Or am I making that up?

Very late to this thread (as I always am--forget to check out this folder).

Yes, Frankie was shooting documentaries and had one about the homeless and drugs in NYC. He filmed a junkie shooting up who then ODed and for the sake of his art he didn't do anything about it (hard to imagine someone raised by Angie would put ambition over humanity...) and then when it was clear he had died he regretted it. Somehow it came out that that was Simone's brother. It was Mia who had a kid with him who had been adopted (he'd been a busy busy guy between Loving and coming back to AMC. What I don't get is if he was in NYC film school why he wasn't on The City, except--I think--for a brief period when it started).

That's an odd Marlena column. I don't quite agree with some of her one word descriptions, but beyond that, Roya Megnot had been off Loving for a year or so before Savage arrived.

I didn't know Pamela Blair was in A Chorus Line. Does anyone know what was so unhappy about her time there?

She and Tom Ligon seem so out of step with the tone of Loving, even in the early days. I really wonder what they were like.

4/10/84 Digest. John Kelly Genovese reviews Loving.

When word leaked out last year that Agnes Nixon and Douglas Marland had collaborated on a daytime serial which Joe Stuart was to produce, we knew we were in for a winner.

Over the past few years, much of soapdom turned to hyped-up ersatz. The two notable exceptions were "All My Children", under the creative helm of Mrs. Nixon, and "Guiding Light," which was penned by Marland. Add to this team producer Stuart, a keen, sensitive perfectionist, and the result is a collaboration of rare creative dignity. And "Loving" has dignity.

To round out the other vital facets of production are two imaginative, energetic young directors with glowing track records on other serials - Andy Weyman, previously of "Edge of Night," "Another World" and "Texas," and Bob Scinto, who squeezed unimaginable life out of the trite dying days of both "Love of Life" and "The Doctors." Boyd Dumrose was hired to design believable, often downright breathtaking sets.

The early castings were dynamic for the most part. As "old money" family heads Cabot and Isabelle Alden, Wesley Addy and Augusta Dabney, display a grace and understated believability which is all too rare among TV patriarchs and matriarchs. Other standouts are Susan Walters, who has grown magnificently as scheming but scared young Lorna Forbes; Perry Stephens, who as hero Jack Forbes is emerging as possibly the best new male lead of the season; Pamela Blair and Tom Ligon as Rita Mae and Billy Bristow, the crackerbarrel southern couple dealing with Rita Mae's alternately riotous and touching search for an identity; and Marilyn McIntyre and James Kiberd's heartbreaking portrayals of Noreen and Mike Donovan, a "loving" couple torn apart by Mike's refusal to get professional help for Vietnam-induced nightmares and hallucinations.

It is highly unfortunate, however, that the show saw fit to dismiss such sterling talent as Shannon Eubanks (Ann Forbes), Patricia Kalember (Merill Vochek), Jennifer Ashe (Lily Slater) and Ann Williams (June Slater), especially since they constituted the two front-burning storylines for the show's first six months.

Many serials have splashy production values and exciting performers to hook viewers. "Loving" is especially lucky - it also happens to have an intelligent, satisfying story.

Take Mike Donovan's nightmares. So many hacks have used shell shock as an excuse to bring presumed-dead heroes back as twisted evildoers. Nixon and Marland could easily have fallen into this trap. Instead, they carefully depicted the gradual breakup of Mike's basically happy marriage, and his imaginary confrontations with his dead Army buddy, even while he continued to function as brother, friend and policeman.

The split-personality of incest victim Lily Slater (Jennifer Ashe) was admittedly melodramatic at times. How much longer could Lily's personality change every time Curtis (Christopher Marcantel) walked in the room? What saved the story, however - outside of some dynamite acting by Ms. Ashe and her on-screen parents, John Cunningham and Ann Williams - was the natural intensification of the Jack vs. Curtis conflict, Marland's skillful use of the two personalities in the murder of demented daddy Garth and the simple fact that this was one of the few split personality stories ever done in soaps which was sufficiently motivated. (Parental abuse is almost always the determining factor in split personality cases.)

This is not to imply that "Loving" is all eerie psychodrama, however, for it lives up to its simple title very well. The explosive love affair of Merrill Vochek and Roger Forbes (John Shearin, Peter Brown) was not only realistically handled in terms of Roger's confusion between Merrill and wife Ann (played to perfection by the beautiful Eubanks) but it had an exciting ripple effect on every other character in the show through Merrill's engagement to childhood sweetheart Douglas Donovan (Bryan Cranston). The triangle involving Lorna, hardworking Tony Perelli (Richard McWilliams) and down-to-earth Stacey Donovan (Lauren-Marie Taylor) promises to be more fun than the majority of teen triangles on today's soaps. And the confusion of Father Jim Vochek (Peter Davies) upon unexpectedly meeting up with a former flame, Cabot's illegitimate daughter Shana Sloane (Susan Keith), is one of the most human and innovative sequences seen on daytime in years.

In short, "Loving" is not only a tasty production, it is an honest, intricately woven story which evolves form a group of people who truly care about each other.

Who could ask for anything more?

Thius ia a great review--where was it published? It makes it sound that creatively, Loving was still on very strong feet nearly a year into its run. Wasn't this around when Nixon (who apparently did have a lot of overall story say already) replaced Marland as HW? Nixon's Loving seemed to try to make it a more traditional "big business" soap from the get go--a rare case of her really seeming to doubt the direction she started in due to ratings and maybe network pressure--and the fact that so many fo these characters that this critic anyway makes sound so compelling were written off.

It's a good point, and not often raised, that the Lily incest story correctly showed that DID personality is almost always caused by sexual abuse usually from a parental figure--years before Malone and Griffith re-wrote Vicki's DID on OLTL. I'd kill to somehow be able to see the first season of Loving. I do really feel from the little I've seen that it was a victim of its times--Agnes and Douglas seemed to really want to return to a low key, 1970s AMC feeling soap, when AMC and all the other soaps (AMC less than many) were starting to go all big city, and maybe that just wasn't enough to quickly catch the audience's attention. Or maybe even in the early 80s things had changed--OLTL and AMC needed a number of years before they made any real impact on ratings. Loving seemed to, within its first year alone, suddenly be under a number of endless re-toolings and changes in direction when maybe it shoudl have gone steady for 3-4 years...

This is from SOD. I have a review from 1986 where Genovese isn't exactly as enthusiastic. I will try to type it up tonight or tomorrow.

I've wondered sometimes if the early ideas for Loving were good stories, short-term, to make a statement, but if there was little long-term story plan.

That's an odd Marlena column. I don't quite agree with some of her one word descriptions, but beyond that, Roya Megnot had been off Loving for a year or so before Savage arrived.

I didn't know Pamela Blair was in A Chorus Line. Does anyone know what was so unhappy about her time there?

She and Tom Ligon seem so out of step with the tone of Loving, even in the early days. I really wonder what they were like.

Pamela Blair was one of the breakout stars of Chorus Line. The problem was the original cast were the toast of New York when it premiered, it was such a phenomenon. And then it never really elad to HUGE careers for any of them (Bishop was a successful character actrerss--Gilmore Girls etc--Wayne Cilento became a well paid choreographer, etc). A lot of the cast was very disillusioned by that--I think they all but thought--and they were largely quite young--that it would lead to them being movie stars. They also were mad that they didn't get more than their small royalties--since the musical was based on long recorded sessions of the dancers having drunk discussions with michael Bennett about their experiences which were then crafted into a musical. No one thought it would go beyond off-Broadway, so when it started raking in billions, they were understanably hurt.

Pamela Blair was in the 80s outspoken about htat but more recently she has basically come to terms about it and calls Chorus Line the best experience of her life. Either that was after Marlena's column, or (i suspect--all due respect to Marlena) it was earlier but Marlena was basing it on Pamela's famous 80s interviews.

This is from SOD. I have a review from 1986 where Genovese isn't exactly as enthusiastic. I will try to type it up tonight or tomorrow.

I've wondered sometimes if the early ideas for Loving were good stories, short-term, to make a statement, but if there was little long-term story plan.

WOuld LOVE to be able to compare a review by the same author over the years.

I dunno, it does sound liek they were trying to make a statement in a way--but it also sounds liek stories could have gone longer--certainly the original family setups, which were so quickly decimated, had potential for long term story, and we know that some like Lily's were apparently rushed/cut short due to network pressure.

The below is a quote that Eric made in the now-locked "AMC & OLTL Will Move Online" thread. (The context of the quote was that I originally stated that when compared to AMC & GH, the P&G soaps failed to get decent recognition for their "socially relevant" storylines. I'm sorry that I took so long to respond to Eric's reply; it's just that the news of the PP venture collapsing came shortly after Eric made this response.)

Eric, on one matter, I have to disagree with you: I actually think that the AW abortion was a bigger deal than Erica's abortion, given that the former abortion was actually illegal.

I stand corrected regarding the AIDS storyline; honestly, I read in one of the AW books that it was the first soap to do an AIDS storyline. I'm guessing that the author was completely unaware of the AIDS storyline on Loving. It's sad that Loving--much like the P&G soaps--was completely ignored for its socially relevant storylines. (Loving also may have been the first soap to have a storyline with a character in a wheelchair.)

When the ABC soaps get acclaim for socially relevant storylines, the only two soaps that are usually being referred to are AMC & GH. The fact that Loving, RH, and (much of the time) OLTL are ignored by the soap elites is just as perplexing to me as the fact that few recognize the P&G soaps for their forward-thinking stories.

Max, sorry it took me so long to find this. I do agree with you, but I stand by the fact that P&G were relatively late to the game with their progressive storytelling (with both major CBS shows--particularly ATWT, it took Marland to do that--which he did VERY well, and Lemay's AW as admirable and theatrical as it was didn't particularly make a point of dealing with social issues--nor should it have--but for all its sophisticated drama and psychology it was still very much white--in fact I've heard it suggested both GL and AW regressed from Agnes Nixon's slight efforts to integrate them in the 60s after she left). AMC, was kinda disliked by the soap press especially for a while partly due to its social stories which seemed to get it--and OLTL to a lesser degree--an audience of younger viewers who didn't watch soaps before.

While an illegal abortion is in some ways more shocking it also was a trait of melodrama, going back to Tennessee Williams in the 40s if not more. Many say Irna Phillips (with Bill Bell--who later did melodrama to perfection on his own at DAYS) spent her first year creating AW on high melodrama in an attempt to get instant ratings but her heart never felt into it and it was a poor fit for her, and it sounds like people thought the abortion story was very poorly handled and just a plot driven excuse. Regardless, illegal abortions had been handled, probably not well, on various primetime hospital shows, etc, before--so Erica having the first legal one when the very fact that it WAS legal to have an abortion was still seen by a huge percentage of the population as shocking if not downright wrong IS why AMC got so much attention.

But I definitely agree that much of the progress these shows did was forgotten and I think you raise a valid point.

Edited December 3, 201114 yr by EricMontreal22

Blair's interview was from 1984 - the Marlena column was something else from the late 80's.

I guess reading up on Loving's early stories I wonder where they would have gone. Some of them do seem to have potential, but stories like the affair/romance between Merrill and Roger is the type of thing which is likely to just tick soap fans off. Perhaps they were trying for something like Jill/Frank on Ryan's Hope. I also wonder what plans they had for Lily if the story hadn't been truncated.

^^How dare folks get indignant when we talk about crazy soap fans? Thanks for sharing that Carl, she was so beautiful. And incredibly lucky! When she turned down mystery role/Felicia(?), that could have easily been the end of it. Interesting to see that there really was a Tina connection, as I've said, her Ava felt like a bit of an Erica/Tina hybrid. They probably would have made her dye her hair.

I always thought it was pronounced "Mehn-yo".

She really does seem like an Erica/Tina hybrid--and I admit she seems more like Erica in some ways--at least vintage Erica--than Lisa Peluso did. Was RM introduced when Agnes came to Loving as full time HW?

Blair's interview was from 1984 - the Marlena column was something else from the late 80's.

I guess reading up on Loving's early stories I wonder where they would have gone. Some of them do seem to have potential, but stories like the affair/romance between Merrill and Roger is the type of thing which is likely to just tick soap fans off. Perhaps they were trying for something like Jill/Frank on Ryan's Hope. I also wonder what plans they had for Lily if the story hadn't been truncated.

I think Lily could have slowly been turned into a successful ingenue--it seems so wrong headed, as entertaining as some scenes were, to bring her back as the man stealing vixen when she came back as a recast, but I *think* that was after Agnes Nixon left again. Merrill and Roger would tick off soap fans--i get your point--at the same time, it seems like a brave, different type of story, still very much int he soap mode for the show.

I wish Marland were still alive (for many reasons, but) so we could hear his thoughts about his time at Loving, why he asked to have his name removed as co creator, or that Agnes Nixon was more forthcoming (I still hope she has some sort of tell all book waiting in a vault to be published when she leaves us).

I've read various things about some of the initial setup being still the work of Dan Wakefield when he was meant to be co-creator--I've read one of his novels and it was very strong (Going All the Way from the 70s which was made into a decent movie in the late 90s and shows strong character writing), and of course I think All Her Children is one of the best books on soaps, but I don't know his tv work at all--he did the much beloved, lightly serialized teen drama James at 15/16 which was a critical hit but never did well with ratings. A few decent looking clips are online, and I know Kevin Williamson claims that it was his top influence on Dawson's Creek (not sure if that's an endorsement or not), but it would be interesting to hear from Wakefield himself about why he decided writing a soap was too much for him.

Those are terrific clips. Probably mainly because of Debbi, but Angie was written so consistently well throughout her different eras and shows. While the age difference is hard to get past, Frankie here (unlike when olive was in the role) also jives well with Cornelius in the role. Whille I'm starting to wonder if Brown/Esensten's writing was only so strong on Loving and--mostly--City because Agnes Nixon was "creative consultant" they also always did well with those characters, Angie's role on Loving only really starting to fit during Agnes Nixon's brief return and then when they took over. On AMC too, Jessie and Angie's story was one of the few standouts during their year (and I don't buy the belief that Agnes must have written all their scenes LOL). It's probably only because they were at AMC that we got any mention of how random it was that Angie had an ex husband who was Cassie's father who looked just like him... (though we'll forget that Jacob did briefly meet Jesse's ghost on Loving...)

Edited December 3, 201114 yr by EricMontreal22