Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[DRW50]

I wonder sometimes if Debbi ever asked for any creative control upon agreeing to return to ABC, as she left on very bad terms in 1989 and didn't seem likely to ever go back.

I think Brown and Esensten do well when they have a specific story outline to build up to - without that they flounder.

[EricMontreal22]

It's true, and there was speculation at the time (of the City anyway--I didn't read the soap press during the end of Loving) that Agnes Nixon w as active enough that she helped bring The City not just to creation, but after it's first period (with the rather lame repeat serial killer story) into better focus, which (I felt--even with hackneyed stories like the Tony/Ally/Calra triangle) it was. I know Harding Lemay was infamously not a fan of The City when asked to view it, but I wonder how much he watched, because it did get a sense of generations and family once Tracy came on. (Of course he was apparently briefly a consultant on all the ABC soaps and I'm not sure his opinion, listened to or not, did any good for any of them at that time)

I suspect that Debbi got over it by the time she joined Loving--but I could be wrong. Regardless it was a big mistake to not have her briefly visit Pine Valley on her way to Corinth and try to help viwers know she would be on the show--I don't even remember many promos. (Then again, I'm not sure if the Loving/AMC crossovers in 91 or 92 helped ratings at all--would be curious to know--even if it was what got me to watch Loving, a soap I had never even HEARD of before).

Forgot to mention in regards to the clips, that I really loved the character of Lorraine and how she grew from Loving to The City--I think I'm VERY much in the minority there.

[DRW50]

December 1986 Digest - John Kelly Genovese Loving review.

In 1983, the soap business was a creative wasteland. The GH Luke and Laura craze was so fresh in producers' mind that virtually all the established soaps engaged in a tawdry game of one-upmanship. Every show had to have a sexy signature couple embroiled in some god-awful adventure plot. Anyone over age 40 either turned detective in order to fit into this mess, or was reduced to one script a week.

Just as it seemed the soaps were doomed to a rock-video mentality forever, LOVING quietly crept upon the scene as the embodiment of what soaps could and should be. Except for ratings, this show had everything going for it.

The people were perfectly balanced in terms of age groups and backgrounds. They were also, for the most part, believable. There were the wealthy Aldens - not eccentric or neurotic or persnickety as the soap opera rich tend to be, but fiercely protective of their family unity and public image. There were also the Donovans who were "real people." Unlike most major families, they were prone to loud but loving arguments. These two families intermingled with the orphaned but upwardly mobile Vocheks, the southern Bristows, and the secretive, gothic Slaters to produce some of the most compelling stories ever attempted in daytime.

The Slater family incest story line; the Vietnam-based torment of Mike Donovan (James Kiberd); the confusion of Father Jim Vochek (Peter Davies) over his love for illegitimate Alden, Shana Sloane (Susan Keith); and the identity crisis of straight-arrow Jack Forbes (Perry Stephens) upon learning of his dubious origins, kept LOVING hopping for two years.

Well, as the song goes, "Those were the days, my friend." Backstage reshuffling is usually the rule when a show has bumped along for two years with low numbers, and LOVING was no exception. What had been a mature, intuitive, suspenseful, often daring piece of television with low ratings, has been transformed into a plodding, predictable, cliche-ridden, archly traditional, ho-hum soap opera with low ratings.

For the past few years, the romance turned fragile friendship of Jim and Shana has been LOVING's centerpiece. Jim's ultimate decision to retain his frock in the face of Shana's passionate pleas, was a heartbreaker. The audience cared about these two tremendously and were well aware of the subtext of their ensuing platonic bond. However, the latest Jim/Shana twist borders on the absurd.

At this writing, the padre has been bopped on the head an has amnesia. Via this convenient device, Jim has lost ten years of his life and is back to the days when Shana, not the priesthood, was the object of his devotion. If only today's serial writers would so conveniently forget amnesia.

LOVING's major teen love story involves wealthy Trisha Alden (Noelle Beck) and struggling Steve Sowolsky (John R. Johnston). They are an appealing young pair of performers, playing out what was initially a promising classical love story. Steve had to live down the reputation of his homicidal father, slimy Harry Sowolsky (Edward J. Moore), and Trisha had to contend with manipulative, snobbish mama Gwyneth (the delightful Christine Tudor).

Unfortunately, the romance has dragged for so long that it is dragging other characters down in the process .Harry Sowolsky has been turned into a comic anti-hero in a silly triangle with Gwyneth and her sister-in-law Ann Forbes (Callan White). And are we really expected to blindly accept Harry as a sympathetic character after his early psychotic attempts to kill Jim and Shana?

The latest twist is the introduction of evil casino owner Nick Dinatos (Jeff Gendelman) as Trisha's sexual downfall and a possible depository for the seven million dollars Harry recently won in a lottery. From Dinatos's introduction, his function was obvious. The story was laid out one-two-three. Ditto Steve's dead-end, rebound marriage to dumb Cecelia (Colleen Dion).

Thank goodness the audience is rid of another seemingly interminable piece of business: the triangle of Jack, Stacey (Lauren-Marie Taylor) and Harry's grasping niece Ava Rescott (Roya Megnot). Ava's second marriage to Jack's cousin, Curtis Alden (Linden Ashby), was so much fun that it ended all too soon. Ava's current "Taming of the Shrew" relationship with no-bull Judd Beecham (Neil Zevnik), as well as Curtis's intriguing friendship with illiterate Lotty Bates (Judith Hoag), would have been far more appealing if Curtis and Ava were still married. To see this spoiled rich boy and selfish poor girl emerge strong and mature together would have made for a jewel of a story. Instead, LOVING perpetuated the idea that marriage is a throwaway - an idea contrary to the show's title.

There is one other major story on LOVING. It involves children and is a major yawn. Lorna Forbes (now played by O'Hara Parker) has to win over Zach Conway's (John Gabriel) bad-seed daughter Kelly (Kathleen Fisk) who is being manipulated by her aunt, Zack's torch-carrying sister-in-law, Jane Kincaid (Deborah Allison) if she is to find happiness with her man. Lorna has undergone a sudden and weakly motivated transformation. Once a conniving spitfire, she is now inching closer to becoming Lawrence Welk's next champagne lady. If the Lorna originally played by Susan Walters had encountered a little snot like Kelly, the kid would have rotting in reform school within seconds.

Especially unfortunate is the show's treatment of its two founding families. The Donovans have all been wiped out except for Stacey, creating the same void which plagues most other soaps - lack of identifiable, middle-class character. The Aldens, though still prominent, have lost most of their dimension. There probably was never as human or as commanding a patriarch as Cabot Alden, so supremely portrayed by Wesley Addy. His word was law, but his innate fairness and respect for others' character (rather than their social strata) were also much in evidence. Today's Cabot is a bellicose, one-dimensional, snobbish tyrant. Wife Isabelle (Augusta Dabney), whose role of the family buffer was so intrinsic to the show's initial concept, is now reduced to sighing, "Oh, Cabot." Oh, what a misuse of talent.

There are other annoyances. Episodes often lack the essentials: stories which flow into each other, scenes that have a clear intent and shape, cliffhanger tags. Little stuff like that. And some of the dialogue sets soaps back thirty years. Turn the sound off, however, and one can more fully appreciate Boyd Dumrose's sets and Robert Anton's costumes. Smashing, Robert Scinto and Peter Brinckerhoff are also brilliant in their capacities as LOVING's directors. Given what they are handed daily to bring to life, these gentlemen are making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Had LOVING followed through on its original commitment to humanness and innovation, it would most likely have built the audience it so hoped to attain. Instead, it "wimped out." It began by showing its elder companions "how it's done," only to be doing what all soaps have done before, time and time again.

Wake up, LOVING.

[EricMontreal22]

That Marlena piece is interesting. I didn't know that GH was definied by You're Dead back in 1990. Or that Agnes Nixon had always acted as consultant for the show, but since it was always owned by her, that makes sense. It does seem that she was always slightly at a loss in regards to a vision for Loving. I know that the instigation to create the show seemed to be a combination of ABC pressure and the Dan Wakefield interest, so I wonder if that was part of her lack of a clear vision, and you still get a sense that her heart was more into AMC (although when I watched Loving I still think her brief 1994 return was pretty great--as outlandish as stories were). While I think comparing it to Barbara Cartwright makes me think Marlena never tried to read any of her novels, I think some of that critique does ring true for what I know of Loving during the time. I still always wonder about the choice of name, and the Johnny Mathis theme certainly didn't help--I can't picture any man (except someone looking for camp) or most women tuning into the opening credits of the time and sticking with it.

[DRW50]

When they replaced Granger (I think it was Granger) in late 1993, they blamed the low ratings and said they'd spent a lot of money on and promoting the Universal remote, and it hadn't gotten the result they expected. I never knew why they would think some tacky remote focusing on annoying Faison would get a big ratings boost.

[EricMontreal22]

I will have to try to find, or pay more attention, to Genovese's reviews, because those are great, intelligent reads. It sounds like (from the few episodes I've seen and story outlines I've read), he's pretty much on the money. Agnes Nixon was writing then--from all I can figure out, though dates are so complicated to track down--and it does sound like, for the worst and maybe under pressure--Agnes was trying to restructure it into a more traidtional soap to gain ratings.

[EricMontreal22]

From all I've read, Granger never really got a fair shake. But yeah--that remote was well advertised (I think Ava and Jeremy were even on Live with Regis and Kathie Lee) and was pretty awful. Granted, I had no idea who Faison was, but he didn't even seem to have any use or connection to Loving.

[DRW50]

There was also some unpleasant behind the scenes stuff (she was accused of discriminating against gay employees), although ABC said that had nothing to do with their decision.

[Max]

Eric, there is no need whatsoever to apologize. You are a very busy man, and furthermore, it took me just as long to respond to your initial post.

I sincerely appreciate your explanation on why Erica's abortion was a bigger deal than the illegal abortions that had been previously done. I had never before seen things this way.

Just excluding the P&G soaps, I have always wondered why certain ABC soaps have never gotten the praise they deserved for their socially relevant storylines. Specifically, I don't know why the soap elite feel that AMC & GH are so superior to OLTL, RH, and Loving. All of these soaps tackled social issues, but only AMC & GH have gotten praised to the hilltops for doing so.

[saynotoursoap]

I am happy with Eric's explanation, too. Sometimes I feel that soap fans today simply have no concept of what a big deal Erica's abortion was in 1971. This is one reason that I become incensed when journalists get it wrong and write that it occurred in 1973 post Roe v Wade. At the time Erica aborted, the procedure was legal in only a handful of states. It was very unaccepted by the general population. People also forget that Agnes Nixon was quite bold in not giving Erica a sympathetic reason to have an abortion. Erica was not raped, her life was not in danger because of the fetus, and the there was nothing wrong with the pregnancy. Erica aborted for no other reason than selfishness and vanity. She wanted to continue her New York modeling career, and getting fat stood in the way. It is really quite amazing that Erica eventually became a beloved and accepted character because what she did was so considered vile and the worst sin imaginable. Granted, she suffered because of it with a life-threatening infection, but the character really was hated when she did what she did.

[dc11786]

Doug Marland was still headwriter. He plotted the serial from June 1983 until June / July 1985. After his two year contract expired, he left the serial. The first interview, April 1984, is still from the time Marland was credited as head writer. I think Genovese’ review is interesting, but, in retrospect, it only highlights the squandered potential.

Regarding the MPD storyline, “Days of our Lives” did the story with Trish Clayton in the 1970s, and it was told a bit more accurately than Lily on “Loving.” Not only was the cause sexual abuse at the hands of a parental figure, her stepfather Jack, but she had more than one other alter.

I agree about the endless retools / cast purges. The show needed a core group of characters, but the show never chose a group of characters or developed the relationships between the characters they kept.

I’m not sure where Roger and Merrill’s story was supposed to go. I suspect Cabot Alden would have eventually intervened as the heavy holding both of their careers in his hands. Roger would probably have remained with Ann in order to pursue his political career, and Merrill’s relationship with Clem Margolies, the Alden family lawyer, may have become more prominent. I could see Cabot attempting to keep Merrill and Roger’s affair secret by pushing Merrill to marry Clem in order to provide every one with a happy ending. With Shana working at Alden Enterprises, maybe she would have become friendly with Merrill Vochek and pushed Merrill to pursue Roger under the guise of going after what’s her while secretly sticking it to Cabot. The Merrill / Shana friendship would have added conflict to Shana / Mike (Merrill did devastate Doug) and Shana / Ann (Ann wouldn’t have liked Shana pushing Merrill to sleep with Ann’s husband).

The Lily story seemed to be the groundwork for a Curtis / Jack rivalry which should have gone on for years. Lily probably would have sought treatment from Dr. Ron Turner, the campus psychiatrist, and eventually integrated herself back into Corinthian society and going back to Curtis. While I suspect Jack / Stacey still would have happened, Jack would always have a soft spot for Lily and support her when things went bad with Curtis. At first, Stacey would be okay with Jack and Lily, but, as time went on, she would be furious and find an ally in Curtis. Assuming Lily would have struggled with sexual sitautions, the introduction of Sasha Hale, the young model who had starred in the pornographic films Curtis financed in Europe, would have complicated Lily / Curtis’ relationship.

Roya came in October 1984. Marland was still credited as headwriter for another nine months or so.

Granger was there from May 1992 until late 1993. There was a bit of cast turnover when she was there and some poorly defined characters who stuck with the show too long (Buck, Tess). Debbi Morgan and Jean LeClerc were both brought over from ‘All My Children.’ Not only was she behind the Universal remote, but the Carter Jones crossover.

I think she was given a good amount of time. If she ran off Addie Walsh like rumored, than she was mistaken. I would rather have seen what Walsh did with the college set than what Guza and Taggert did. With that said, I do think Guza and Taggert should be commended for the work with Steffi / Cooper / Ally / Casey.

[Khan]

Once again, I think, network impatience led to a show's ultimate undoing. If they had stayed the course, and allowed Doug Marland to execute his vision for the show, ratings be damned, I think LOVING would have become the success ABC had hoped for within five years. Soaps can build an audience, even in these times, but they can't do it overnight.

[DRW50]

12/21/93 Digest. Carolyn Hinsey reviews Loving.

Acting A

Stories D

Romance C

Humor B+

Look B-

How many different ways can we say that LOVING is improving? This is a soap opera that has had a lot of trouble telling stories, and that makes it difficult for viewers to get really hooked on this show.

No matter what they do to Stacey Forbes, she is still the heart of LOVING. Greatly aided by the fact that Lauren-Marie Taylor has been on the show since its inception, this character creates interest no matter what. Even when the widowed Stacey suddenly married her former father-in-law, Clay (Dennis Parlato), we cared about her and rooted for for her to be happy. There were such rich story possibilities with that marriage - Stacey's daughter, Heather, was fathered by Rick Alden, Clay's son, and Stacey had been very close to Clay's beloved daughter, Trisha. Yet, their story made a brief pit stop at a mental institution and checked out.

These days, Clay is spending quality time with his ex-wife, Gwyneth (Christine Tudor-Newman), and Stacey is steaming up the screen with Buck (Philip Brown), Clay and Gwyn are one of daytime's best divorced couples, and LOVING has wisely paired them together a lot recently. Clay even went out and bought Gwyn a home pregnancy test! Unfortunately, what could have been a great storyline - Gwyn's mid-life pregnancy - fizzled in two weeks. What health issues does a 40-ish woman face when she chooses to go forward with an unplanned pregnancy? What emotional issues would Gwyn have faced, given that two of her three children (Rick and Trisha) are dead, and a third (Curtis) keeps disappearing? What would Gwyn and Buck's baby have done to Stacey and Buck's love story? How would Clay have fit in? Such great possibilities existed, yet Gwyn suffered an immediate ectopic pregnancy and the opportunity was missed.

Ava (Lisa Peluso) and Alex (Randolph Mantooth) are another dynamite divorced duo. When he kisses her, he means it, and their chemistry is palpable. The fact that she has fought her feelings makes for better story, and the triangle with Jeremy (Jean LeClerc) raises the stakes even higher. Manthooth has made Alex Masters a very sympathetic spy, and his ad-libbing is second to none. "Thanks for bringing that up," he said during a recent bantering session with Ava. "Not that we haven't discussed it six or seven times." Recapping the action drags down the storytelling, so it's nice to have someone around who gives the repetition some levity.

Angie (Debbi Morgan) and Frankie (Alimi Ballard) are a welcome addition to Corinth, and it will be nice when they get a front-burner story of their own. (Paging Charles Harrison?) Tying Frankie to Cooper (Michael Weatherly) was clever, and milking the relationship will make for some humorous raised eyebrows - like snooty Isabelle's (Patricia Barry). Kudos to LOVING for finally introducing an African-American story.

Cooper has actually turned into a fun character, and I like him paired with Ally (Laura Sisk). There's another good divorced pair. And they do seem like real teenagers (although hopefully most real teens don't have babies) and are very sweet together. Casey (the excellent Paul Anthony Stewart) and Steffi (Amelia Heinle) are a believable pair too. The scene where Casey was photographing Steffi was beautifully filmed (fog machines and all), but I wasn't thrilled about the scene's message: A worried Ava studied the photos and said to Casey, "Take another look at the way she is looking at the camera and tell me how professional it really is between you two." Modeling (like acting) is a job.

I'd love to see LOVING address the one issue that actually unites all the Corinth kids: none of them have parents. Cooper's folks died in a plane crash, Casey's mother died and his dad went over the side of the belfry, Ally's mom lives out of town and we have no idea where Steffi's are. It makes perfect sense that orphans would gravitate towards each other, but wouldn't they discuss this?

It was nice of Shana (Susan Keith) and Leo (James Carroll) to name their baby Patti, after Trisha, and their story has been LOVING's most socially relevant. It makes sense that Shana, who has already lost a child, would have clung so hard to this one, and exploring possible birth defects was a positive, unusual story for daytime. A marriage between these strong, independent souls would be a hoot.

The character of Dinah Lee really suffered this year, and it's a fine tribute to actress Jessica Collins that viewers still care as much as they do. Dinah Lee went from Tucker (the underused Robert Tyler) to Clay to Curtis (Patrick Johnson, then Michael Lord) so fast, we couldn't get a handle on her true feelings. Worse, she married Curtis just when Lord had taken over the role, so viewers watched their beloved Dinah Lee marry a total stranger. Collins has really grown as an actress, and she can handle comedy with the best of them. A triangle with Alex and Ava, or Clay and Gwyn would be really fun. I could see her taking another run at Trucker, too (Wouldn't you?) The repercussions of that union would be most amusing.

Where does Tess (Catherine Hickland) fit into the action, now that Curtis is gone? How will Kate (Nada Rowand) cope with the loss of her beloved Louie (the late Bernard Barrow)? What's the deal with the mysterious Joe Young, a.k.a. Dante (Thom Christopher)? Where is the presumed-dead Trisha? And Jack Forbes, for that matter? These and other questions will no doubt be answered by the new team over at LOVING, headed by Executive Producer Jo Ann Emmerich. She has inherited a talented cast of actors who truly care about their show. And LOVING is a show that is positively brimming with storyline possibilities - so stay tuned.

[Khan]

Ah, Philip Brown.

[EricMontreal22]

I'd never heard of Curtis' involvement in ponography before--which could have tied into Lily's feelings for him as you say. What year was that?

I got hooked on the show during the Carter crossover (though I had started casually watching the Fall before when Jeremy and Ceara briefly went over) so I guess I liked it during that era. I did think Guza and Taggert did well with that quad you mention, but also agree Addie should have stayed on as HW.