This is the Presidential Campaign Thread.

Barack Obama Vs. John McCain.

Edited November 6, 200817 yr by Toups

Prop 8 sucks.

Time to organize.

Major protests occurred last night in West Hollywood. Marches, LAPD "intervention" Suits have been filed. I just don't know how successful they will be. Like Wales said, most people who voted yes voted for tradition. To them marriage is viewed between a man and a woman. After reading LA Times article, many people voted yes as a reaction to their idea that "gay marriage" would be taught to our children as an acceptable lifestyle. They considered that an infringment of their rights. Could it be possible if we named it something other than marriage, it might become acceptable as long as that union is afforded the same rights as a married couple. I don't know. I just think its sad. I remember when marriage was defined as a union between a white man and a white woman and interracial unions were outlawed.

I agree that we need to come together too, but it is a little late to call for that now.

I don't believe in hopelessness and despair and life is not over yet so I don't see how anyone can say it's too late to call for unity. To me it's like saying that what we are now, we will always be and where we are now will never change. We may as well give up now. I know that's not what you mean but to say because there are some "special" people in both parties that are incapable of moving forward, those who want to are doomed is not a positive thing.

Not every Democrat is dancing on the grave of the Republicans. I'm neither. Did I feel a degree of empathy for McCain when I heard his Secret Service coverage ended at 6 a.m. yesterday morning, and that he was driving himself and Lindsay Graham in his Sequoia? Yes, a little (except the LG part since that man really looks like a super snob). But I'm not sorry McCain lost because he ran a campaign based on a divisive platform. When you have people going around defining which part of America is real and which Americans are real Americans, then you have a major problem.

When you try to scare people into voting for you by insinuating that the opposition has terrorist pals but the only basis for your claim is some interaction through an education related board which one of your benefactors funded, then it says a lot about country first to me.

McCain has every right to his ambitions but he should have owned them instead of trying to paint himself as some selfless man who only wanted to fix the country but wasn't at all feeding his own ego.

The Democrats are as flawed as you say but when you looked out at their convention and their rallies, you saw more of the faces of the diversity that is America than you saw at all of the Republican rallies and convention put together.

Major protests occurred last night in West Hollywood. Marches, LAPD "intervention" Suits have been filed. I just don't know how successful they will be. Like Wales said, most people who voted yes voted for tradition. To them marriage is viewed between a man and a woman. After reading LA Times article, many people voted yes as a reaction to their idea that "gay marriage" would be taught to our children as an acceptable lifestyle. They considered that an infringment of their rights. Could it be possible if we named it something other than marriage, it might become acceptable as long as that union is afforded the same rights as a married couple. I don't know. I just think its sad. I remember when marriage was defined as a union between a white man and a white woman and interracial unions were outlawed.

The front of the paper shows the nation as pretty red and if you look at California, it's pretty red and you'd wonder why it went blue. There are so many counties in this state and if you go down the left side of the state map you will see how blue it is and the highest concentration of people are in Los Angeles County which is a pretty small area on the map (with over 2.5 million voting) and then San Bernardino County (with less than 400,000 voting but about five times the land).

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics...93859.htmlstory

I think the school issue may be a factor but I think the idea of churches having to perform gay marriages probably prompted greater opposition UCLAN. I don't know if better communication would help somewhat but there are a lot of people that do take the position that whatever you do in your own home is your business. To some of the people that supported the proposition, church is like their home and you can see the dilemma there since they're believing that they will have no choice in the matter.

This puts into perspective why Prop 4 passed since one would think the same people would also support notification of parents when abortions are performed on minors.....but then again the language in Prop 4 wasn't as clear and there weren't ads supporting notification.

Emannuel has agreed to be Obama's COS.

Emannuel has agreed to be Obama's COS.

David Axelrod is going to be his Senior Adviser and it looks like Robert Gibbs will be his Press Secretary. Now it's a matter of David Plouffe.

On the GOP side the House Minority Whip Blunt is stepping down and there are some other changes coming. Right now there seems to be an all out campaign by some of the GOP to shred Sarah Palin though.

Here's some of it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/06/p...s_n_141783.html

I think the school issue may be a factor but I think the idea of churches having to perform gay marriages probably prompted greater opposition UCLAN. I don't know if better communication would help somewhat but there are a lot of people that do take the position that whatever you do in your own home is your business. To some of the people that supported the proposition, church is like their home and you can see the dilemma there since they're believing that they will have no choice in the matter.

This puts into perspective why Prop 4 passed since one would think the same people would also support notification of parents when abortions are performed on minors.....but then again the language in Prop 4 wasn't as clear and there weren't ads supporting notification.

I think the school issue played a huge role into it. Every single yes on 8 ad that ran talked about kids grades k-3 learning about a princess marrying a princess and a prince with a prince. lol. they played upon the fear and they won.

and yeah, i love how prop 4 passed. So kill the babies, but keep those gays from getting married! lol. No, but honestly im glad prop 4 passed. It would have created a lot more harm than good, IMHO.

The only silver line in all this is that it was so close, and closer this time than last time we voted on it.

I wonder. Is healthy debate dead?

Especially in this thread, when you try to engage in a discussion with someone about their viewpoints, more times than not, they get pissed off and leave.

However, IA (and have said many times in this thread) that the Democratic Party is not perfect. Conversely, there are some Republican ideals that I admire greatly. In a perfect world, this country would have a viable third or fourth party candidate - or candidates - that had a genuine chance at achieving victory. Either in the House, the Senate or the Oval Office. Unfortunately, that's not the case in America today.

And I actually crossed party lines this election and voted for John Mica for Senate. A dyed-in-the-wool Republican. Why? Mostly on the basis of his senority and the fact that he is a huge proponent of the light rail commuter train here in Central FL. His Democratic rival for the seat was a newbie and would not carry the clout that Mica has in regards to that issue. Therefore, I voted Republican.

Admittedly, I'm liberal. But I chose Obama not because of the Dbehind his name, but because I felt he was the best person for the job. If McCain were to have run a more inclusive campaign, and chose a better VP candidate, it would have been hard to decide between the two of them. The last day of the campaign, McCain started airing some very good ads here that detailed his life of service. Very effective and if he would have done something earlier in this race, it would have helped him, IMO.

I think the school issue played a huge role into it. Every single yes on 8 ad that ran talked about kids grades k-3 learning about a princess marrying a princess and a prince with a prince. lol. they played upon the fear and they won.

and yeah, i love how prop 4 passed. So kill the babies, but keep those gays from getting married! lol. No, but honestly im glad prop 4 passed. It would have created a lot more harm than good, IMHO.

The only silver line in all this is that it was so close, and closer this time than last time we voted on it.

My position is that more often than not propositions pass in the state and/or county in which I live with which I disagree and I think that will continue to be the case. Some of them end up getting challenged in court and that's why Prop 8 ended up on the ballot again in the first place. This is one of those issues that is going to continue to end up in court possibly for years to come.

If people want to compromise then there are a couple of issues that can be addressed. I happen to believe the catalyst against this came from the church and that they used the issue of school and church to prompt church members to vote for it. I don't think that specific group of people will ever be in favor of it but they probably will feel less ambivalent if there is an option to opt out of sex education for their kids (maybe they'd be okay with basic reproduction education) and if there is clear language that churches won't be sanctioned if they are opposed to performing gay marriages.

Prop 4 was about parental notification in the case of abortions being performed on minors. The wording was terrible and maybe that contributed to its passing. Plus the only ads I saw regarding it stated that it was harmful to kids with abusive parents since having to notify them would lead to more abuse. I have a problem with that since if the minor is not emancipated the parent is legally responsible for that child regardless of whether the parent is abusive or not so if that child bled out or had some other complications as a result of that abortion, who would they notify then?....The abusive parent so the whole thing is stupid. It's really saying that if all goes well we will keep your parent from beating you for getting pregnant but your parent can still beat you for any other reason and you can get pregnant again since we can go through this as many times as you get pregnant.

I wonder. Is healthy debate dead?

Especially in this thread, when you try to engage in a discussion with someone about their viewpoints, more times than not, they get pissed off and leave.

Look, I think I've had enough of all you liberals myself

and before I go on my merry way, which one of you wants to answer my question about whether Joe Lieberman should be ousted from his position as a committee chair?

Oh and then there's this Joe Scarborough vs Chris Matthews (who I think are similar in attitude but I have to give CM the edge in knowledge) clip where I think Joe needs to let the whole Rahm Emmanuel thing go and give him a chance to hold hands and sing kumbayah with the Republicans (who can't even hold hands with each other right now):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/06/c...o_n_141768.html

My position is that more often than not propositions pass in the state and/or county in which I live with which I disagree and I think that will continue to be the case. Some of them end up getting challenged in court and that's why Prop 8 ended up on the ballot again in the first place. This is one of those issues that is going to continue to end up in court possibly for years to come.

If people want to compromise then there are a couple of issues that can be addressed. I happen to believe the catalyst against this came from the church and that they used the issue of school and church to prompt church members to vote for it. I don't think that specific group of people will ever be in favor of it but they probably will feel less ambivalent if there is an option to opt out of sex education for their kids (maybe they'd be okay with basic reproduction education) and if there is clear language that churches won't be sanctioned if they are opposed to performing gay marriages.

Prop 4 was about parental notification in the case of abortions being performed on minors. The wording was terrible and maybe that contributed to its passing. Plus the only ads I saw regarding it stated that it was harmful to kids with abusive parents since having to notify them would lead to more abuse. I have a problem with that since if the minor is not emancipated the parent is legally responsible for that child regardless of whether the parent is abusive or not so if that child bled out or had some other complications as a result of that abortion, who would they notify then?....The abusive parent so the whole thing is stupid. It's really saying that if all goes well we will keep your parent from beating you for getting pregnant but your parent can still beat you for any other reason and you can get pregnant again since we can go through this as many times as you get pregnant.

Since I am a gay man in a long-term relationship, perhaps I'm not the most unbiased person to debate the passage of Prop 8 in CA or Prop 2 here in FL. But I'll put my two cents in anyway.

The simple fact of the matter is that discrimination is wrong. And writing it into the constitution of any state is wrong. Every state in the union has ratified the US Constitution which plainly states that all men are created equal. Period. That should be the end of the debate. For anyone to succumb to scare tactics regarding gay sex/relationships, etc taught in school is just pathetic. How could a resonable, fair-minded person allow themselves to be manipulated in this way is beyond me.

Granted, they my be traditionalists. There's nothing wrong with that. But traditions are not always to be upheld, especially when that tradition marginalizes a group of people.

If the shoe were on the other foot, and homosexuality was the "norm" and I was given a ballot to define marriage between one man and one man or one woman and one woman because the scary hetroes were taking over our country, I would still vote NO to that. Because it would be discrimination.

Finally, I can't go as far as to compare gay rights to civil rights, simply because what this country has done to black people over the last 200+ years is reprehensible and the gay rights cause has not seen that kind of coordinated, state-sanctioned brutality laid at their doorstep as did the blacks. I'm hoping that Obama will formally apologize to every black person for what this country has done to them.

DP

Edited November 6, 200817 yr by Greg's GL

Look, I think I've had enough of all you liberals myself

and before I go on my merry way, which one of you wants to answer my question about whether Joe Lieberman should be ousted from his position as a committee chair?

Oh and then there's this Joe Scarborough vs Chris Matthews (who I think are similar in attitude but I have to give CM the edge in knowledge) clip where I think Joe needs to let the whole Rahm Emmanuel thing go and give him a chance to hold hands and sing kumbayah with the Republicans (who can't even hold hands with each other right now):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/06/c...o_n_141768.html

Wales, your independent ass is getting on my nerves as well! But I still love ya

Regarding Joe Lieberman, I'm torn. If they take his committee chair away from him, how does that support bipartisanship? Sure, he supported McCain, but was he spouting all the terrorist nonsense about Obama on the campaign trail? I don't remember him doing that, just supporting McCain. He is one of your ilk, Wales. An Independent!!!

I have to plead ignorance IRT Emmanuel. Is he the antithesis of bipartisanship or something? I take it he is, or else the Repubs wouldn't be complaining about it right now. What about him historically has made the Repubs look at his selection with such disdain?

CM saying he would do "everything he can to make the new presidency work" is a little fishy to me. He should concentrate on doing his job, reporting the news, without a significant bias toward Obama. It's statements like this one that makes the right scream MSM bias.

Since I am a gay man in a long-term relationship, perhaps I'm not the most unbiased person to debate the passage of Prop 8 in CA or Prop 2 here in FL. But I'll put my two cents in anyway.

The simple fact of the matter is that discrimination is wrong. And writing it into the constitution of any state is wrong. Every state in the union has ratified the US Constitution which plainly states that all men are created equal. Period. That should be the end of the debate. For anyone to succumb to scare tactics regarding gay sex/relationships, etc taught in school is just pathetic. How could a resonable, fair-minded person allow themselves to be manipulated in this way is beyond me.

Granted, they my be traditionalists. There's nothing wrong with that. But traditions are not always to be upheld, especially when that tradition marginalizes a group of people.

If the shoe were on the other foot, and homosexuality was the "norm" and I was given a ballot to define marriage between one man and one man or one woman and one woman because the scary hetroes were taking over our country, I would still vote NO to that. Because it would be discrimination.

Finally, I can't go as far as to compare gay rights to civil rights, simply because what this country has done to black people over the last 200+ years is reprehensible and the gay rights cause has not seen that kind of coordinated, state-sanctioned brutality laid at their doorstep as did the blacks. I'm hoping that Obama will formally apologize to every black person for what this country has done to them.

I can't offer up anything on Florida but I did suggest where the compromise could come in California's struggle since it was made into a school-church protection type issue.

I don't know how to respond to what you said about tradition because I'm not sure whether you mean someone's religious belief may be a tradition or whether you just mean that person's belief regarding marriage and where that leaves a person whose belief regarding marriage is rooted in a religious belief.

Politics and religion are touchy subjects but I will delve into a political discussion much faster than I will one about religion because I think it's very hard to knock someone's religious beliefs. Now there might be some instances where I think people are using religion in a manipulative fashion but that is vastly different from someone holding a position that on its face seems to me to be rooted in an actual Biblical position.....whether I agree with that individual's interpretation or not.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you about Obama apologizing as well. I just don't see how that works.

70% of African Americans voted yes to Prop 8. African Americans have the highest rates of single mothers and children without fathers. What would they know about marriage?

Wales, your independent ass is getting on my nerves as well! But I still love ya

Good.....in the spirit of getting along....I won't run off just yet then

Regarding Joe Lieberman, I'm torn. If they take his committee chair away from him, how does that support bipartisanship? Sure, he supported McCain, but was he spouting all the terrorist nonsense about Obama on the campaign trail? I don't remember him doing that, just supporting McCain. He is one of your ilk, Wales. An Independent!!!

I don't think they need to worry about bipartisanship for people who aren't in either party, I believe I heard him say that Obama wasn't a friend of the Jews and some other things in the name of helping McCain. The Democrats took issue with whatever he said at the Republican Convention about Obama so it's not that he supported McCain but what he said about Obama in support of McCain. I don't think he gets to be McCain's sidekick anymore since that was Lindsay Graham riding with McCain yesterday.

He's not an Independent because of philosophy but because of necessity.....in that he had to run as one to keep his seat. I think they need to look at whether he's effective in his position as opposed to whether or not he bad mouthed Obama and tried to make people think that Obama was a terrorist. If he does his job then I think they should leave him in the position. His mouth is a reflection on him since he's going to look stupid sucking up to all of them now. Since Michelle Bachman was re-elected they need to get her on the floor and make her tell them who is the unpatriotic House members are.

I have to plead ignorance IRT Emmanuel. Is he the antithesis of bipartisanship or something? I take it he is, or else the Repubs wouldn't be complaining about it right now. What about him historically has made the Repubs look at his selection with such disdain?

I think he eats them for breakfast or something. Seriously, I think that he probably is persistent and maybe he's too liberal for them as well.....whatever that means exactly. It sounds like he's going to force them to try to play nice instead of posture though. I haven't heard what he's done but eventually the tale will be told.

CM saying he would do "everything he can to make the new presidency work" is a little fishy to me. He should concentrate on doing his job, reporting the news, without a significant bias toward Obama. It's statements like this one that makes the right scream MSM bias.

CM is still drinking his euphoria juice which will either get a little diluted depending on how he's feeling at the moment. He can't help showing a bias for whomever he's crushing on at the moment. I've seen him bark at Democrats and gush over Republicans in one segment of his show and then go ga ga over something radically different in the next. He was anti Hillary then he fell in love with her and he thinks there is something so brilliant about Sarah Palin even though he questioned her knowledge quite a bit.

I don't think he reports news. He just gushes over whatever he wants and gets cranky over whatever he wants. Sometimes he wants to lead his loose lips guests into the gallows and sometimes he wants to saturate other guests in flowery sayings. If Sarah Palin sat in the studio with him, he would spend the entire time in awe over her charisma and telling her what a raw deal she got.