DramatistDreamer

There are plenty of women in their ranks as well, gaslighting as they so along. They are the heirs to Schafly.

We won't get into some Y&R fans and their tirades over interracial relationships on that show.🙄🤐 That's best suited for another thread.

Yeah, thanks @DRW50, I figured it was something like that. Sadly, when you know some are in it for the clicks. One of the reasons I appreciate what B&B has done, making their episodes available on YouTube. Also, I am screaming😂 at the way their YouTube streamed episodes from the 80s are pulling higher caliber ads than their episodes that air on actual broadcast television.

Who do I have to blackmail to get a never before posted and rarely seen episode up on YouTube?

Oh, sometimes I forget how provincial soap fans could be, particularly CBS daytime soap fans.

I liked this aspect, that Lisa was loyal in equal measure, despite feeling that Bob was the "one that got away". I appreciate when there are complicated feelings at work. Wow, we stated this at virtually the same time!

😲 Wow, do tell ...

Wow, 20 years, congratulations on a really great idea that expanded even further. The soaps may be dull at times (more often than many of us had wanted) but the discussions certainly aren't. The atmosphere is always lively.

That's my point entirely. If he was a provider but rough hewn or offered a sense of security, I saw none of these things onscreen. Frankly, they weren't even implied. Whit was just there barking at his children occasionally even snapping at Lisa. What is obvious though, is why they got rid of the character.

Ireland and the other holdouts have finally relented.

Some of those episodes are, in fact, on YouTube and yes, it is obvious that Whit was "going down" in that very soapy set up. I don't have questions about that. I do have questions about what appeal Whit had to Lisa a woman who clearly had no need of his money or reputation to get on in life. Way before he was being set up, Whit was not nice. His relationship with Brian was on and off, Kirk was convinced that his father never really liked him and even Diana, who supposedly was his favorite, he talked down to, as if he thought her incapable of making a single sensible decision in life. Now, since Kirk was was indeed his biological son, raised in his household, as his son, regardless of his maternity, honestly, I would expect him to be included in the will, despite the sh*tty treatment by Whit. In reality, Whit treated all of his kids somewhat sh*tty. Just based on treatment alone, you'd think that Craig was his heir. He seemed to be the only one Whit liked. Anybody answered that question about Jillian? I realize that Brian also dated a Juliet (seriously dated) not long before, which is a bit odd.

I just don't get the appeal of Whit. I realize that aspects of the backstory that are retconned but since there are so few episodes of Whit and Lisa together as a couple posted on YouTube, I wanted to know whether there was more of an indication that Whit had some other aspects to his personality besides barking at his children and the occasional cutting remark to Lisa. I just don't see any romantic chemistry. My other question was about Jillian and Brian and Jillian and Barbara's obvious souring relationship and when exactly that happened and why?

Whit was such a meanie, I am honestly looking at these old episodes and wondering what Lisa saw in him. I appreciate that the show would build a rivalry between Lisa and Lucinda based on each woman's devotion to preserving her husband's memory but Whit seemed gruff and coarse. He didn't even seem to treat his own children with much regard. People make fun of Earl but at least there was some kind of charm there and chemistry between Earl and Lisa. Also, does anyone remember how long Brian and Jillian dated? I seem to remember some miscommunication between them and Brian and Barbara, who had a falling out and Barbara scolded Brian for what she believed was leading Jillian on but down the road when Brian and Shannon were dating, it seemed as though Jillian and Barbara didn't like each other one bit. I think Jillian even made a cutting remark to Barbara about being glad that Brian was with Shannon and not Barbara, after Barbara implied that Jillian must be hurt to see Shannon and Brian together. I wonder why and how they became so antagonistic toward each other. There are no episodes to show that trajectory. I know that's not Jillian in this episode.

You're welcome. Just a few ideas, in short. Gaslighting is an apt description @DRW50. It really feels that way.

On a previous post, I already gave my ideas on Lucinda (and John, by extension). My basic premise is the idea that there should be a final "ending" was not ideal. I compared the finale episodes for AMC and ATWT and gave my thoughts on why AMC, despite some clumsy execution provided a better ending than ATWT and why this gave AMC some viability and a chance for at least one reboot, something that is unlikely to ever happen for ATWT. In short, AMC left their characters viable, while ATWT completely put their characters out to pasture. Never "sunset" your characters, unless someone dies in the end. Even Thelma and Louise left a little room for "What If?" in the end, despite the fact that intellectually, we all knew they went over that cliff. (As preposterous as it was, that ending actually inspired talk of sequels). To be as brief and as descriptive as I can, If I had a chance to write storyline arcs to the finale for Barbara, for example, I would give her options, I wouldn't just shove her with Henry as a "happily ever after". I would spoil her for choice. At least a year before the finale, I would have Barbara relaunch BRO (or whatever they wanted to call it). Have Barbara be a driven designer having her own design house. We don't have to see runway but see her in the process of making sketches, discussing fabric, cut and debuting collections in Milan, London, etc. (Paul can make the trips abroad, returning with rave reviews), have there be so much interest that she is drawing notice from other fashion houses to do collaborations have Eric Forrester be interested in her (perhaps for more reasons than professional). He makes an offer to Barbara which is tempting but Barbara decides that this is not the right time in her life for such a monumental change that could uproot her very stable life, Eric, convinced they will work together, urges her to give it more thought. As Barbara and Henry grow closer and eventually get engaged with plans to marry soon, a surprise return from Barbara's past comes back into her life and unwittingly crashes her big engagement party, right in the middle of Bob Hughes's toast, which causes Barbara to reconsider whether her life is as steady, stable and as sure as she thought. Eric, hearing about what happened at the engagement party suggests that she come to L.A. for awhile, give herself time to process the recent upheaval and work with him on that collaborative collection with FC, married or not, he believes they would make a dynamic team). Of course, there would be conversations with Henry, who stands by her and hopes that this is a momentary obstacle to their impending nuptials (although Henry doesn't see divulge that Vienna Hyatt has contacted him, offering her support to him and more). This surprise "guest" from Barbara's past also also offers Barbara a window into a past, before she acquired all the "baggage" she now has, as this person remembers her from a time when she was free from scandal and judgement. I have my ideas on how I would wrap on that, if I ever have the time to sit down and write that, I just might put it in writing. Lucinda, I wrote some of that piece but I would definitely write her as looking to groom a successor, her own "wunderkind" to run Worldwide, while, of course, still very much holding onto the reigns at the company. The best option would have been Bryant, which she always envisioned taking over from the day he was born (there are actual clips of her saying this), and this would create good conflict with Bryant's parents. The problem of TIIC killing off Bryant could have been solved in true soap fashion, and I have already posted what I would write (anybody remember this?) as a solution. But yeah, I would never "sunset" these characters. Keep them viable, give them options because one never knows.

Considering the fact that AT&T have been bad actor almost consistently for years, I won't hold my breath on that one.

Hasn't this country always been kind of terrible though? Genocide, slavery, exploitation... it's just that the veneer of gentility, fairness and upward mobility has been scraped away.

I minded, namely because Lucinda and Barbara were once feminist icons (daytime, which was not unproblematic, but still) and they ended on such a conventional note-unfortunate, imo. Had they been the characters they ended up being when I first saw them as a little girl, I would never have continued watching that show, tbh. So yeah, as a woman, who grew up watching these "uncommon women" (to quote late playwright Wendy Wasserstein) as a little girl who grew to write drama, the idea of it was disappointing. Thankfully, I waited a year before watching the final episodes on YT, so I wasn't as invested in the series as I would have been when I was a faithful viewer.

There were many ways, they could have built intrigue as a final "see what you could've had, P&G/CBS?" finger in the eye to detractors, had they cared.

She could also have been thinking that having Martha reprise the role would have freed up some time for her, that she could've spent auditioning for new roles, since the series was all but over at that point. It would've been a win for her as well. I think Casey had decided to go to law school at the last minute, which made little sense, given his academic trajectory and the interests he had in music and hospitality. I could have seen him becoming an entrepreneur in the mold of his grandmother, maybe even apprenticing to one day take over a few of her businesses. That would be an aspect of generational continuity. I don't mind Parker becoming a cop but couldn't they have had written a more 21st century take on it? Maybe a forensic pathologist or forensic detective? CSI was such a huge hit for CBS back then, I'm surprised they didn't try to incorporate any of that shine. Did Andy ever return? Since Kim actually owned the house (if you remember Bob moved into her house after they married), it should have been handed over to Andy and Chris and Andy could have taken ownership of the house. Maybe he and Denise agreed that while she builds up her dance studio, he would take over custodial parent duties with Hope. To see Andy with his teenage daughter in tow, interacting with her grandparents could have been good. Even better if Hope were interested in medicine. Oh boy, the future clashes between Andy and his father over that one!

Yes, Holden and Lily break up to make up, which is why their "ending" simply felt like the latest in an ongoing cycle, rather than an end to anything. Yes, Bob was retiring (which he could have done perfectly well in Oakdale), and that should have set off a stethoscope race for the top seat, with Emily encouraging her mother to grab it and Lucinda convincing John of the opportunity to finally run the hospital and shape its future his way, without the interference from Bob Hughes (but plenty of input from her, would be John's sarcastic reply). Lisa should have had many to choose from, she had chemistry with a number of characters over the years, Joe Bailey, who was once Tom's boss at the crime commission and Jerry Halperin, the fashion clothing distributor that had a falling out with Barbara. Or it could be someone brand new. Lisa could have tried speed dating and any number of 21st century dating techniques, had Casey or someone help her build her online dating profile. Lisa was always a character surrounded by youth and embracing the new, which is how we should have seen her doing at the final months of the series, instead of the nothingburger that she ended up with.

Cheapened is an interesting word. The endings for every character was cheapened in the end. I think the staging of those last scenes taking place in practically a hallway made to look like a threshold of a doorstep certainly didn't help matters. The actress was always miscast, imo, it almost didn't matter by the end, but I tried to look at the ending story, at that point. Perhaps if Byrne or even *gasps* Rattray or heck Lucy Deakins had reprised the role, perhaps I would have focused as much on the characters as the story trajectory of Lily and Holden. If anything, I was able to analyze it more clinically, without any hint of sentimentality, because I felt none.

Ideally when you write an end for a series with such a long history and legacy, it should be written in a way, that even at it's end, it follows the aspect of a continuing story, one that people actually would want to pick up with these characters or continue them. Barbara landing at Forrester. John and Lucinda co-chairs of that board, wondering if Lucinda will convince John to again take the reigns at Memorial hospital or will Susan become the hospital's first woman chief of staff and which Lucinda would have wanted to prevent. Lisa, the romantic should have been exploring the then still new world of online dating for seniors. There should have been intrigue to the very last drop.