Soaplovers

Lack of affiliate clearance and ranking 3rd in the markets that it did air at 12:30/11:30 ensured that their days were numbered. When I was looking at the weekly ratings provided by Jason47, the switching of time slots for Loving/Ryan's Hope actually helped SFT some since there were a few weeks where SFT was close to ranking higher than Loving. Even in the fall 1983 episodes being uploaded on YT, Wendy is still shown as not being a complete schemer. She was shown feeling guilty over what she did to Suzi, confused over her feelings for Warren, while she still had a close relationship with Stephanie. She still resembled the nice ingenue Wendy, who happened to make a mistake and was trying to figure out a way forward. 1985's Wendy is basically whatever the plot calls for without any layers nor nuances that was plain to see back in mid to late 1983 during the Warren/Suzi/Wendy triangle (which loses steam with Cindy Gibbs leaving and her replacement not being up to the task). And the Stephanie/Wendy fighting over Bela story seemed very out of character given the many years of history where Stephanie/Wendy were a team against the world. They bickered, but you could tell that the two loved one another. Had the show not fired/driven Maree of the show.. I don't think the Stephanie/Wendy relationship would have ever devolved into the fighting over the same man trope..imho. During the Locher Room interviews with both Shaffer and Peluso (separately done).. when both were asked about working with one another.... it didn't sound like they had a horrible working relationship.. but that they both had to figure out how to develop a rapport with one another. All Peluso would say was that it was very different, but wasn't a bad working relationship.. while Shaffer said Peluso wasn't a bad working partner.. but could tell she was basically checked out and ready to go.

From looking at the character bio for Cecelia on that Loving website, I agree that the character wouldn't have stayed long term at least the way Staab appears to have played the character. If the dates listed on that website were accurate, Staab played the part for five months, Alice Haining played the part for about seven months, and Dion played the part for almost a year and half. There was a picture of Cecelia as played by Staab and wow.. she was a Madonna wannabe with teased blonde hair, tight black mini dress, and acting coy with Steve. The episode I saw of Haining's Alice had her wearing a black leather jacket with her hair styled almost like Trisha's.. and Dion seemed to be styled more like Ava in the episode I came across of hers. This was all due to the fact that the character wasn't an actual character.. but an obstacle trope. Staab's Cecelia was an obstacle/distraction that kept Steve/Trisha apart. Apparently her and Trisha had a catfight that resulted in both falling into the Alden pool. Another element that was in play was her relationship with her controlling father that owned the garage where Steve was working. Her fear of him finding out she defied his orders to stay away from Steve caused her to lie that Steve raped her. And the height of that story was in play in November 1985 when Staab quit the show to go work at Guiding Light as Jesse.. so I understood why the show panicked and had to quickly find a replacement over the weekend.. which probably explains why Haining was cast (who didn't resemble nor act like Staab whatsoever). During Haining's stint, Cecelia is less a bad girl and more tortured and feeling remorse over how her lie has caused trouble for Steve. Her main functions during her stint was trying to make up for her lie by helping Steve/Trisha.. first with warning Steve about his ex cell mate Spider and his plans for Trisha.. and then stealing to give to Steve/Trisha so that they could escape. Meanwhile, her father moves his abuse from psychological to physical by beating Cecelia for stealing money from his garage, but he ends up dying. The final leg of her stint involves her moving into Kate's bording house, pretending to date Spider in order to save her late dad's garage since he was working at the garage in order to help funnel drugs through there and to throw him off the trail of finding Steve/Trisha. Once Steve/Trisha defeat Spider while on the run and have returned, Dion appears to now be playing Cecelia.. and her Cecelia is back to being an obstacle for Steve/Trisha... and that lasts until at least the summer of 1987 where her schemes are exposed by Steve and he leaves her for Trisha. Her last few months involve her saving Steve/Trisha by taking a bullet meant for them.. and then briefly dating Rick before believing the rumors he's sleeping with Gwyneth and decides to leave for a new life. Most of her time on the show was basically an obstacle If Lorna Forbes into a heroine was a mistake especially when she totally could have fit in the slot as the obstacle between Trisha/Steve.. with the added conflict that the two girls were cousin... and it would have poured fire into the feud between their mothers Ann and Gwyneth. Instead of the being tortured by her controlling mother in law and Zona.. then standing trial for killing Zona, then going to jail, getting together with her far too old lawyer and trying to be a step mom to his resentful daughter. All of that story plays between March 1986 to January 1987 before Lorna is written off (and Susan Walters quits/fired in the middle of that story so I have a feeling the recast only was hired to finish the story and then be ushered out of town)>

I didn't mind the Dreaming Death story since there was actual high stakes with Hilary almost dying, the gothic way Lesley Ann passed away, and it gave airtime/focus to the Cedars hospital crew. Most of her convoluted stories did have some positives that affected the show in some way long term like the Dreaming Death story, the Tony/Annabelle cottage story, and the Largo story. And they were umbrella stories. For me, the biggest misfires were as follows: - Roxie having amnesia in Alaska story.. which introduced the Kurt character. It didn't involve anyone outside the Lewis orbit, didn't really have any long term implications for anyone, and it just seemed stupid. - Floyd being the killer of Andy Ferris, kidnapping India and being obsessed with Beth. And two smaller misfires: - Nolarobics - I say this was a smaller one because it wasn't offensive, but it just screamed we have no ideas for Nola so let's get her into exercise. The upside was that it did serve to bring characters in separate orbits together in one central location (i.e. Rick, Katie, Beth, Lillian, Nola, Annabelle, Tony, etc). - Dinah/Alan Michael/Cam/Dinah - I say this was a smaller misfire because I viewed this as Long's attempt at recreating the 4 Mouseketeers magic.. but lightening sometimes doesn't strike twice. The upside was that two out of the four characters were popular.. so it wasn't a total wash. I think he left the first time in spring of 1984 (I believe it was April or May).. and it was a shame he left because he and Beverlee had great antagonistic chemistry as brother/sister.. and their rapport was just getting explored when he left the canvas. 1) I think Jerry V said in one of the Locher Room interviews that he wore the dunce/idiot cap twice... one during his marriage to Carrie and during the Blake and the dual father twin story caper. I was surprised that Ross was devoid of any sex appeal during the Marland era because he seemed to have it in spades during the Pam Long/Nancy Curlee era circa 1984-1993 2) Diane was very sexual and was a feminist in her own right during the Dobson era.... sadly even her confident sexual aura was watered down during the Marland era. Why she couldn't have been sent to prison in 1981.. I'll never understand.

From what Rebecca Staab said in a Locher Room interview, Cecilia was supposed to have been a 6 episode stint.. and was more like a Madonna/Cyndi Lauper esque character. However, the show liked her and kept writing more episodes for her without wanting to sign her to a contract. She booked Jessie on GL and her agent told the show on a Friday that she would not be coming back to work after that day since she booked a contract role so the show had to scramble to recast the role since she was supposed to come back the following Monday to tape. I saw an episode with Alice Haining playing Cecilia.. and she didn't come across as blue collar at all. I never saw Colleen Dion's take on the character.

Wow.. Madonna softening with age? Anything is possible

I was under the impression that Hayley was still working at the law firm. Since she was bringing pick up meals to go back to the office, and there was one scene where she was shown working in his office at a separate area from him. I do like the idea of Derek/Hayley becoming semi friends and interacting on occasion with Ashley being bothered/insecure because she's afraid that Hayley is after her man LOL I think it was established that Vanessa came from money during one of her talks with Joey while Jan works at Vanessa's house (I assume as a servant).

Marland wasn't good at writing for complex female characters so it would make sense that he couldn't make heads or tails on Anne and the potential of the Anne/Lorna mother and daughter relationship. His writing of Gwyn/Trisha's mother/daughter conflict was basically a blue print for his writing of Lucinda/Lily. Except that in this case, Gwyn was in the wrong and Trisha wasn't an entitled brat. And I think once Nixon came back in mid 1985, she couldn't get a read on the Anne nor Lorna characters since they were changed too much by the Marland era so she leaned in on their romantic lives vs their professional lives. She probably found more inspiration from the Kate/Ava relationship and their dynamic then she did from Ann/Lorna or Gwyn/Trisha. I like your idea of a Trisha/Lorna/Steve triangle. It would have saved the show from creating Cecelia Thompson (a 6 episode character that ended up lasting a year and played by three completely different actresses).

The one thing I did like about this soap was that not every character was born again, and that some of the characters that were good/decent weren't necessarily born again (like Babs). The benefits of this soap being on cable was that there were less restrictions on what stories could be told and what topics could be explored. Ironic that a Christian network had more diversity/variety in the stories/content then network secular soap operas. I think had the DOMI story immediately followed the murder mystery, the ratings and affiliate drop offs wouldn't have been as steep. @dc11786I think the ending of the Barnes regime also ushered in the ending of the Cummings family on the show. I'm trying to figure out if the Cummings family could have fit in during the later structure/vibe of the show.. and I think they might have played a part in the DOMI story or perhaps the Bible story.

Great production, but I get major pick me vibes from it LOL

And also Jacob is trying to nail Joey on something.. but his dad and his partner have some sort of deal with Joey that is putting a crimp in Jacob trying to nab Joey. Nicole, Ted, and Naomi have both remarked about Joey and his reputation so I think the show is slowly showing us that the Duprees are aware of Joey and his reputation. I think part of the reason Nicole is concerned is because she knows if Vanessa falls for Joey's charms and invites him into the community.. it will be someone that the Duprees might not be able to get rid of him since he also has money and power in his own right. In fact, maybe the 2nd family should be built around him. He just mentioned an ex wife.. but he could have been lying about the backstory just like he did about his mother. Perhaps he does have a family that isn't aware of his connections and/or accepts those connections.

I had assumed that Doug was just a gateway to Vanessa, who is the one with the connections due to her real estate business. It's one of the main engines within the community so it makes sense that she's the main target to getting his foot within the gates of the community.. and then going from there.

I had no idea that my choice to post it in the Santa Barbara thread would cause so much drama... my bad Anywho, the reason I had put that content into that thread was because her filming the pilot for this show and it being picked up was the reason she ended up leaving the show. So I had assumed that seeing episodes of the show could have sparked renewed discussions on that final Eden story. Not only did it affect her character, but the whole fabric of the show changed with her departure. In the future, I'll think twice about posting a link unless I provide context as to why I posted said link in that thread since some people might not get the connection.

But she wasn't good at her job, which actually diminishes the argument that women could have a space in the P & G world. I know of powerful women that could have been good at P & G, but she wasn't it.

I think Ann being under developed in the bible was done on purpose. her whole identity was tied up being Cabot/Isabelle's daughter, Roger's Wife, and Jack/Lorna's mother. She was raised to not have any sort of agency for herself. The early episodes showed Ann carrying on the tradition with her adoration/favoring of Jack over her daughter Lorna. Had the casting/writing been a little stronger... Ann/Lorna could have had years of story with their mother/daughter conflict. In fact, I think Marland's inability to write a character like Ann (who seemed more like a Nixon type of character) is why she suffered and eventually she was supplanted by Gwyneth by 1984.. who had a stronger presence and was played by a stronger actress. The show seemed more interested in writing Gwyneth/Trisha.. who were more the typical mother/daughter trope as opposed to Ann/Lorna.. where a writer with imagination could have written to their organic conflict. The show's inability/disinterest in writing for Lorna always fascinated me because she was the perfect grey character. Not all bad, not all good and was played by a great actress Susan Walters. The 1986 episodes available show Lorna as basically background/greek chorus.. when she should have been one of the lead characters. And once Walters quits the show, any sort of interest/appeal of the underwritten character is gone.

Watching some of the 1984 episodes in the past, one of the things Pam Long was talented at at the time was writing anticipation and longing between two characters in love. For example, Josh and Reva in 1984 was straight out of Tennessee Williams. The wealthy son of the Lewis family both in love with and embarrassed by the daughter of the help. The daughter of the help was spirited and full of energy with everyone except the wealthy son of the Lewis family. They were a one step forward, two steps back couple and fans ate them up during that year. Contrast that with Hilary/Jim.. who were the complete opposite of Josh/Reva where their stubborn natures kept them apart at first.. but eventually they got together and were good together. The Slut of Springfield episode shows this contrast between Josh/Reva and Hilary/Jim... where one couple are having a honest conversation about their relationship and listening to one another.. while the other couple are reacting in emotion without listening to the other. If a couple has chemistry, keeping them apart can intensify the chemistry and anticipation. So this whole conservative pullback due to the AIDS crisis could have been used to amplify this trope. It's partly why Days of Our Lives was so popular in the 1980s.. because they were able to utilize this to the fullest degree. It's a shame Guiding Light stopped being able to use this trope well in the 2nd half of the 80s. Watching the Spauldingfield uploads of 1983/1984: I had no idea that Josh/Hilary were friends.. even went on friend dates together. it's a shame that the show abandoned their friendship once both individuals are paired up in couplings. Kelly/Clare were a good match with a more layered Claire vs the one note mess she becomes in late 1985/1986. What surprised me was that the show was setting up tensions between Claire/Maureen with Ed and Claire being on the same wavelength. So the 1985 story involving them isn't out of left field, but goes so wrong by the end of 1985.

1) I have a feeling the two day preemption threw the episode schedule off, since I think this episode is technically a mid-week episode. Still, if the pacing wasn't still being worked on... we could have had a mini cliffhanger on one of the stories. 2) The way you feel about Doug's gambling addiction story is how I'm feeling about Dani's whole arc and character. I think having Dani as a character at the start of the show was a misfire. She should have been off screen and anticipation should have been building for her arrival. Except, Karla M isn't exactly an actress worth anticipating so the show would have had to cast someone more appealing with range for that to work. 3) I think Bill and Naomi will eventually face each other in court, but cases such as the one brought forward by the three women usually are settled out of court. Perhaps whatever the Martin secret is might get the two either working together or against one another... especially if the secret involves a murder. I also wanted to echo other people stating that there needs to be a 2nd family introduced that serves as a contrast to the Duprees. Perhaps Caroline, Tomas, or even Shanice could be from a more working class/middle class family that serves as a contrast to the wealthy world outside the gates. I wouldn't mind seeing more Asian or Latino characters on the show.

Hunter was a great cop show, nothing mindless about that show. Stefanie Kramer was the glue that kept the show going.. which is apparent once she leaves the show and the show tries replacing her twice with no success. Palace Guard had the misfortune of being scheduled on a night where the target audience was not going to be home to watch the show. CBS was in the mood for casting the opposite attracts male/female people in tv shows during the 1991 fall season.. since P.S. I Luv U had a somewhat similar concept except the genders were reversed (with Connie Selleca as the criminal and Greg Evigan was a cop). Both shows were scheduled on horrible nights for CBS (Friday for Palace Guard and Saturday for P.S. I Luv U).

I think these scripts were written after Ron C was shown the door. His ideas were probably in place, but I have a feeling the new head writers had a hand in how these scripts were written. To me, it seems as though these last few episodes are tying up the Ron C era, but I'm not sure exactly where the new writing team will be focusing on based on these last few episodes.

It looks as though Ron C's talent lies in being a breakdown writer (same as Jean Passante back in the day).. and he should never ever be elevated to a head-writer again. Nicole/Vanessa have nicely eased into a nice friendship chemistry.. and I loved the Joey's mom rising from the dead in 3 days line. Perfect timing due to Easter being just around the corner. I'll be curious to see Nicole's reaction once Ted's past activities come to life. Doug should totally be upgraded to contract player since he actually can act and can be provide layers to his role. Ashley and Shanice are nicely being used these past two days... but would like to see both of them interact with Eva again soon. Dani/Pamela... still on the fence on this friendship. I have trouble getting behind mean girls, but at least Dani isn't being all doom and gloom about Bill for a change. It's about time the writers finally give Chelsea some more layers. She's been constantly controlled by Dani and I'm still waiting to see if any follow up will be done on Chelsea's personal life. Kat means well.. but she had Nicole as a mother so she can't emphasize with Chelsea. It makes sense Naomi looks to Anita as a mother figure since she probably had to parent Dani all the time.. and she's more like Bill then she's like Dani. I did notice that we're slowly getting some soap opera facial expressions before the scene cuts to a commercial break (ala Doug's reaction to seeing Joey and Vanessa's expression at Nicole asking if she has feelings for Joey). Next week: Silk Press Sheila and Eva

TPTB really didn't value the contributions that performs put toward playing a character, or else why would the show insist on recasting Stephanie and Liza in 1984/1985 when both characters were playing by very popular performers that had that something special. Seeing the three 1985 episodes uploaded with the first two episodes of Sherry Mathis playing Liza and then the last episode played by L. Gideon... it was like seeing two different characters and probably was jarring. And the Wendy character of 1982 and 1983 is so vastly different then the character of Wendy in 1985. It did seem as though the writers were sort of restoring Wendy back to the less scheming version of the 1982 in her finals weeks of her stint in 1985. Jo also seemed to have more focus/attention by the writers in 1983 then she had in 1985... And that Kate McCleary character in 1983 was so not needed... she was too drab/boring.

I hate to say it, but sometimes toxicity makes a soap opera more engaging and interesting to watch. Marland's obsession with therapy was evident in his content, especially by 1982. That obsession sometimes made watching a soap episode kind of difficult without any sort of balance to that. He also seemed unable to infuse his stories and scenes with any sort of passion or oomph. For example, Kelly was shirtless/in a speedo all the time.. but he was just so devoid of any sensuality/personality.. same with Josh, Tony, etc. They all seemed one note.. and his ability to write female characters that he didn't create was also a struggle for him. Amanda, Rita, Holly, Evie, Hilary, Katie, etc.. all became more one note with the layers/complexities of the Dobsons. The one thing I can say about Pam Long was that she knew how to write men and how to write male friendships. That kind of writer is so lacking on soaps and most television shows nowadays. She also was able to restore some of the spirit/strength/personality to such characters as Amanda, Hilary, Katie, and she seemed to wisely write Trish as the peace-maker within the Lewis Family (and it explained why she was estranged from them for so many years.. because she was tired of being the peacemaker).

The three plaintiffs are the last people to be given any power or input. They come off as incompetent, and delusional about their abilities. However, since this is a feminist soap.. I'm sure they'll be girl bosses by summer time. No Dani today I have to admit that I kind of missed Ashley and Derek, though I'm confused about the acting choices by the actor playing Derek. I'm not sure if he's still adjusting to soap opera acting, or if he's not able to bring anything to the role. Smitty knows better then Martin yet again. Tyrell's going to be played yet again.. all because of a pretty girl. Men need to stay strong and learn not to trust a pretty face. Vanessa and Shanice would be a nice pair to see interact outside the hospital, and I liked that Shanice was toned down (she seems more campy on Ron C scripted days). Can I say that it was nice to get a break from Dani? LOL

Claire Labine wrote a few tv movies in the early 90s, I always wondered why soap writers didn't think to write tv movies in between soap opera writing gigs. The Bride in Black - 1990 - Starring Susan Lucci She Woke up - 1992 - Starring Lindsay Wagner Star - 1993 - Starring Jennie Garth (A Danielle Steel Adaptation)

Andre is too good for Dani. She's a walking red flag that screams 'Stay away' This is one of the rare times that I side with the husband and mistress. Also, I'd love if one day the show does cast Dominique Jennings in a role... and be given more freedom to act on a better written soap as opposed to Sunset Beach

Some thoughts on the episode for today: - Andre is too good to be saddled with the entitled and toxic Dani. - I'm interested in seeing Cady as she molds the character of Pamela, her first original character. Pamela is nothing like Dixie nor Rosanna today... she reminds me of Olga (the modeling guru that helped Erica Kane with her career on AMC) and the late Carrie Donovan (Link) - I'm team Hayley. Dani is just so unlikable that I'm glad Bill cheated on her and dumped her. - Jacob and Naomi have a nice chemistry and rapport with one another. The thing Naomi refuses to see is that the reason she's such a pragmatic/logical person and is good at her job is because of her father Bill. It underscores the importance and contributions of fathers to not only their sons, but their daughters. - Bill was a little scary in his scenes with Mike, but you need those scenes to contrast with the scenes of Bill as a father. The show is at least recognizing that you need a strong male character that you love to hate. - Smitty/Martin need a recommendation for a good marriage counselor from Nicole