7 hours ago, kalbir said:

@vetsoapfan How would you rank these vixens: Lisa Miller the OG vixen, Agnes Nixon creations Rachel Davis and Erica Kane, Bill Bell creations Jill Foster and Brooke Logan.

This legitimately deserves its own topic, but here's my unrequested ranking.

Using the three common criteria for a vixen in media (according to AI): 

1. Sexual allure: The term often refers to a sexually attractive, provocative, and glamorous woman. It can suggest a powerful or mysterious sex appeal.
2. Cunning or cleverness: Drawing from the nature of the fox, a vixen can be characterized as clever, resourceful, and cunning. This can mean she is intelligently seductive or deceitful.
3. Confident and spirited nature: A modern interpretation frames the term in a more positive or empowering light, referring to a woman with a strong will, confidence, and lively, spirited energy. 

I would rank from Brooke, Rachel, Jill, Lisa, to Erica as the ultimate of the five.

• Brooke - yes, she has slept her way through an entire family of brothers, more than once, and some of her daughter's lovers as well.  However, the Forresters would be nothing without BELIEF (sp?).  Brooke's prior degree in chemistry, or industrial engineering, fabric witchery made them wealthy.  So, one could say that Ridge, Thorne, and Eric are actually the vixens of B&B and Brooke is the sugar-momma.
• Rachel - total vixen in the 70s.  From manipulating the entire Matthews family into keeping the secret from Russ and Alice that Steve was Jamie's father, to out-vixening Janice in St. Croix, Rachel was a supreme.  But, she hung up her vixen cape fairly early, and allowed Vicky, and others, to lead the pack at times in Bay City.
• Jill - yes, a vixen, but not very skilled.  She literally fell into good fortune.  She didn't have to do a lot of foxing on her own.  Philip Chancellor provided the means necessary for her to fight Katherine.  And, her good-looking divorce attorney John Silva got her the job at Jabot, with a salary, but no alimony.  So, she was often a victim of her own greed. --- Speaking of a masterful scene, watch Jill's first day at Jabot.  She thinks she's got it all, a big office, a six-figure salary, a cute male secretary.  By the end of the day, Mrs. Chancellor barges her way into Jill's new office.  She reminds Jill that, unlike Katherine, who used Mitchel for her divorces.  Jill has to work in order to get her settlement.
• Lisa - @vetsoapfan said it all
• Erica - because she is the icon.  You can argue if she was actually a vixen.  But, the Jungian ideal of a vixen is Erica.  When people define vixen, Erica Kane and Alexis Colby are the two names they use most often (according to Google's AI). So, to me, she's on top.  I mean, you don't get more confident that telling a bear not attack you because you're Erica Kane.

I like the three criteria structure because it accounts for the difference between a vixen and a villain.

Rachel is a vixen because she possessed all three, Janice is a villain because her lack of confidence in Mitch's desire lead to her downfall.

 

Edited September 27Sep 27 by j swift

17 minutes ago, j swift said:

This legitimately deserves its own topic, but here's my unrequested ranking.

Everyone's opinions are always wanted and appreciated; no requests are needed!🙃

The best thing about all these characters was that they were multi-faceted and layered. Drama is always more absorbing when we see conflicting dimensions to both the protagonists and the antagonists.

Cardboard, cartoon villains quickly outstay their welcome. These ladies never did.

@vetsoapfan @j swift Thank you for the answers.

3 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

characters...multi-faceted and layered. Drama is always more absorbing when we see conflicting dimensions to both the protagonists and the antagonists.

Cardboard, cartoon villains quickly outstay their welcome.

Totally agree. All soap writers need to note this.

1 hour ago, kalbir said:

@vetsoapfan @j swift Thank you for the answers.

Totally agree. All soap writers need to note this.

Do you think any of the current soaps have scribes talented enough to write truly complex, three-dimensional characters? I think some actors can and do being nuances to their roles, but for the most part, the writing does not support them.

Edited September 27Sep 27 by vetsoapfan

9 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Do you think any of the current soaps have scribes talented enough to write truly complex, three-dimensional characters?

Honestly, no.

Josh Griffith needs to go. Bradley did not inherit his father's talent. 

11 minutes ago, kalbir said:

Honestly, no.

Josh Griffith needs to go. Bradley did not inherit his father's talent. 

As a life-long soap viewer, it pains and baffles me to see that mediocre (or, worse, truly weak) scribes are allowed to continue writing the shows year after year. Just as frustrating, a handful of hacks keep getting shuffled around from series to series, regardless of how atrocious their previous material has proven to be.

Granted, most of the master writers are no longer with us, but even hiring outside, new talent and giving them a shot would make more sense to me that allowing proven failures to remain employed forever.😡

4 hours ago, j swift said:

 

• Brooke - yes, she has slept her way through an entire family of brothers, more than once, and some of her daughter's lovers as well.  However, the Forresters would be nothing without BELIEF (sp?).  Brooke's prior degree in chemistry, or industrial engineering, fabric witchery made them wealthy.  So, one could say that Ridge, Thorne, and Eric are actually the vixens of B&B and Brooke is the sugar-momma.

It brings tears to my eyes seeing my girl The Whore Of Beverly Hills... Get acknowledged like this. Can I put a heart emoji somehow on this post? 

 

On 9/27/2025 at 3:47 AM, Maxim said:

It brings tears to my eyes seeing my girl The Whore Of Beverly Hills... Get acknowledged like this. Can I put a heart emoji somehow on this post? 

 

This GIF is hilarious.

@Maxim Your girl Brooke has an heiress apparent in Beyond the Gates Vanessa McBride. I pointed out in the BtG thread that Vanessa makes Brooke look angelic.

6 hours ago, kalbir said:

@Maxim Your girl Brooke has an heiress apparent in Beyond the Gates Vanessa McBride. I pointed out in the BtG thread that Vanessa makes Brooke look angelic.

Call me when Vanessa sleeps with an entire gene pool and then all her female relatives's husbands. ❤️ 🤣

7 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

This GIF is hilarious.

 

She is a savage. 😍

13 hours ago, Maxim said:

Call me when Vanessa sleeps with an entire gene pool and then all her female relatives's husbands. ❤️ 🤣

Hahaha, for sure

I am curious: are there any changes TPTB could make on the current soaps to elevate them to greatness?

Once upon a time, DAYS, Y&R and GH were masterfully done. I can't honestly say B&B was ever a "masterpiece," but it was certainly better under William J. Bell than Thudley.

How would you polish up the existing soaps to elevate their quality and status? What characters/elements would you eliminate/introduce or reintroduce? Could you recommend any specific changes in the writing regimes? Would you change the length or frequency of episodes per week?

Give your imagination and creative juices free reign!

 

I’m nostalgic to say that Two Todds on  OLTL was a masterpiece for me, if only because that was the first time I got to watch Roger Howarth as he created new Todd stuff.

On 10/9/2025 at 2:56 PM, vetsoapfan said:

How would you polish up the existing soaps to elevate their quality and status? What characters/elements would you eliminate/introduce or reintroduce?

With Y&R the first thing that needs to happen is to move away from the business stories and focus again on relationships. Given the dire budget, scaling down the scope of the stories would make sense.

They need to drop a few characters eg Phyllis who have outlived their usefulness and concentrate on newer characters with more potential. 

eg Nick and Sharon married and parents to Faith/Noah etc with the younger characters as the focus.

When Y&R began there were only a few characters above 40 yr old. Now most are in their 50's and beyond.

It's great to have vet performers but they need to move to a more supporting capacity, stepping into the spotlight when appropriate, instead of coming up with dumb stories to keep them at the forefront.