https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2023/06/soap-operas-influence-tv/674337/?utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_content=true-anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Thanks for the article.

I had to laugh at the bit about people denigrating Yellowstone as a downmarket Succession. Actually, many in the media went out of their way to do just the opposite - denigrate Succession because it got outsized press coverage (which it did) while Yellowstone was a show for "real" America. The only reason this tapered off is because a lot of Yellowstone fans will tell you outright the show has sucked for years and was strangled by the creator choosing to do 500 spinoffs. Succession, while probably not a show that will be as remembered as Sopranos is by many, or Game of Thrones, generated much more genuine discussion and conversation on motivations and flaws and light and dark and humanity, or lack thereof.  

I'm glad they praised Sarah Snook, as I do agree her work is reminiscent of long gone soap anti-heroines, and the wonderful Sarah Brown. The show, like the best of soap writers, like Bill Bell with Jill and Nikki and Katherine and Lorie, Irna Phillips with Kim, Henry Slesar with Raven, never tried to make Shiv a saint - she hid behind the facade of "sisterhood" and progressive politics, but always chose what she thought was best for herself. Yet she was also generally not painted as some kind of hellbitch ruining the lives of the men around her - she was at times cruel and cold, other times vulnerable and heartbreaking. Her final scenes, the prison of her own making and yet one that had been built for her long before she had been born, were exquisitely done, and had an aching ambiguity to them that was the best of soap. And she and Matthew Macfadyen were just superb acting partners in a way that you took for granted on soaps in their heyday. 

I read an article not long ago talking about the increasing turns to open-ended finales on prestige shows, and I think that is also a reminder of the effects of soaps - not that Sopranos was seen as being a soap (at least not as the years passed), but that sense of life still going on, viewers choosing their own adventure once the final credit rolls, is there. More with Succession than just about any primetime show. In its own way (a much bleaker way) it's a sister to the end of Ryan's Hope, which Claire Labine and Paul Labine kept very open-ended with a few moments of closure peppered through to reward viewers for their loyalty and love. 

The nuance of the characters, the complexity of who they loved, what they could ever want or be, probably reminded me most of the Dobsons and their Guiding Light run - and if you take away the madhouse dialogue and absurdist humor, you get that same austere chic that stays with you from so many of the 1979 GL episodes. You could so very, very easily drop characters like Kendall Roy or Gerri Kellman into the Springfield of that era.

The moral and philosophical view of the show is what you would have gotten in a world where Irna and Harding Lemay had been able to collaborate - the show was stacked top to bottom with playwrights, like Lemay, exploring complex psychological profiles and cycles that are set as traps, yet like Irna, the show constantly feels torn between damnation and finding the light ahead - characters struggle and struggle with their worst selves and what made them who they are, they pay the price for being unable or unwilling to change, but there's still that glimpse of heart that makes you want them to be better, even if you know they never will be. 

(and my guess is Irna would have loved the Marcia character, who was just what Irna kept trying to make her matriarchs into [an extremely cold, controlled, at times very manipulative woman, hardened by a difficult past, who still has her moments of deep sympathy])

There's a scene near the end of the show where Kendall tries to simultaneously control and comfort his brother Roman by hugging him tight to deliberately pop his stitches, the physical abuse that their father had used to make him obedient and which Roman could no longer function without. It's such a gut-wrenching moment to watch, such hideous duality, yet done in just the right way, never seeming exploitive or like some kind of fetish material. It's very much a step further in the wheelhouse that a show like DAYS was set up for in the '70s.

The other tie to soaps is that even though Succession was not a show about romance (most relationships were transactional and incredibly broken - sex was almost always an afterthought), but in the era of increasing numbers of people who can't or won't accept more explicit portrayals of sexuality, this seemed to get a very passionate response from viewers. Similar to soaps of old, seeing so little allowed viewers to see whatever they wanted to see. The show had many, many fan ships, and even though the show did not pander to most of those, they also did not shut them down. The finale, surprisingly, left paths open to all of them, giving fans the chance to make their own worlds for them.

One of the most unique relationships was one that various soaps like AMC, Y&R and Somerset tried to tackle in the '70s, just within a much more corporate and toxic setting - Gerri, 25 or so years older than Roman Roy, was frequently on the receiving end of his flirtations and obsessions, and at times, outright harassment. She tried to form a business partnership with him, she did genuinely care about him a great deal, even as she used him as something of a buffer in the company, but he was ultimately too out of control and she wisely got out as she watched him burn himself to the ground. On modern soaps, like Guza's GH, she would have been presented as some kind of hag clinging to a stud and paying with her life, beaten, spat on. On Succession, she was (even if she was not a central character) a much more complicated figure that many viewers, especially older female viewers, adored - "representation" without actually being treated as such.

I talked to @Vee about this at the time it aired, but there was an episode that truly made me yearn for the lost world of '50s, '60s, and '70s soaps, the layers and the very specific mix of being emotionally overpowered while being chilled to the bone that reminded me of my beloved ATWT and GL. It also feels like the more honest path that should have been taken with how Viki and Todd processed the Lord family legacy on OLTL.

You had the three Roy children each giving a eulogy, each coping with the lifelong abuse by their father in the only way they could - either trying to bargain, trying to become him, or falling apart entirely. It was both grueling and enthralling for me to watch, and yet it also made me very proud of what soaps were before weather machines and couples on the run to nowhere, and a glimpse into what they could be again in some other time or place, after the few remaining daytime staples have taken their last line.

 

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by DRW50

8 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Thanks for the article.

I had to laugh at the bit about people denigrating Yellowstone as a downmarket Succession. Actually, many in the media went out of their way to do just the opposite - denigrate Succession because it got outsized press coverage (which it did) while Yellowstone was a show for "real" America. The only reason this tapered off is because a lot of Yellowstone fans will tell you outright the show has sucked for years and was strangled by the creator choosing to do 500 spinoffs. Succession, while probably not a show that will be as remembered as Sopranos is by many, or Game of Thrones, generated much more genuine discussion and conversation on motivations and flaws and light and dark and humanity, or lack thereof.  

I'm glad they praised Sarah Snook, as I do agree her work is reminiscent of long gone soap anti-heroines, and the wonderful Sarah Brown. The show, like the best of soap writers, like Bill Bell with Jill and Nikki and Katherine and Lorie, Irna Phillips with Kim, Henry Slesar with Raven, never tried to make Shiv a saint - she hid behind the facade of "sisterhood" and progressive politics, but always chose what she thought was best for herself. Yet she was also generally not painted as some kind of hellbitch ruining the lives of the men around her - she was at times cruel and cold, other times vulnerable and heartbreaking. Her final scenes, the prison of her own making and yet one that had been built for her long before she had been born, were exquisitely done, and had an aching ambiguity to them that was the best of soap. And she and Matthew Macfadyen were just superb acting partners in a way that you took for granted on soaps in their heyday. 

I read an article not long ago talking about the increasing turns to open-ended finales on prestige shows, and I think that is also a reminder of the effects of soaps - not that Sopranos was seen as being a soap (at least not as the years passed), but that sense of life still going on, viewers choosing their own adventure once the final credit rolls, is there. More with Succession than just about any primetime show. In its own way (a much bleaker way) it's a sister to the end of Ryan's Hope, which Claire Labine and Paul Labine kept very open-ended with a few moments of closure peppered through to reward viewers for their loyalty and love. 

The nuance of the characters, the complexity of who they loved, what they could ever want or be, probably reminded me most of the Dobsons and their Guiding Light run - and if you take away the madhouse dialogue and absurdist humor, you get that same austere chic that stays with you from so many of the 1979 GL episodes. You could so very, very easily drop characters like Kendall Roy or Gerri Kellman into the Springfield of that era.

The moral and philosophical view of the show is what you would have gotten in a world where Irna and Harding Lemay had been able to collaborate - the show was stacked top to bottom with playwrights, like Lemay, exploring complex psychological profiles and cycles that are set as traps, yet like Irna, the show constantly feels torn between damnation and finding the light ahead - characters struggle and struggle with their worst selves and what made them who they are, they pay the price for being unable or unwilling to change, but there's still that glimpse of heart that makes you want them to be better, even if you know they never will be. 

(and my guess is Irna would have loved the Marcia character, who was just what Irna kept trying to make her matriarchs into [an extremely cold, controlled, at times very manipulative woman, hardened by a difficult past, who still has her moments of deep sympathy])

There's a scene near the end of the show where Kendall tries to simultaneously control and comfort his brother Roman by hugging him tight to deliberately pop his stitches, the physical abuse that their father had used to make him obedient and which Roman could no longer function without. It's such a gut-wrenching moment to watch, such hideous duality, yet done in just the right way, never seeming exploitive or like some kind of fetish material. It's very much a step further in the wheelhouse that a show like DAYS was set up for in the '70s.

The other tie to soaps is that even though Succession was not a show about romance (most relationships were transactional and incredibly broken - sex was almost always an afterthought), but in the era of increasing numbers of people who can't or won't accept more explicit portrayals of sexuality, this seemed to get a very passionate response from viewers. Similar to soaps of old, seeing so little allowed viewers to see whatever they wanted to see. The show had many, many fan ships, and even though the show did not pander to most of those, they also did not shut them down. The finale, surprisingly, left paths open to all of them, giving fans the chance to make their own worlds for them.

One of the most unique relationships was one that various soaps like AMC, Y&R and Somerset tried to tackle in the '70s, just within a much more corporate and toxic setting - Gerri, 25 or so years older than Roman Roy, was frequently on the receiving end of his flirtations and obsessions, and at times, outright harassment. She tried to form a business partnership with him, she did genuinely care about him a great deal, even as she used him as something of a buffer in the company, but he was ultimately too out of control and she wisely got out as she watched him burn himself to the ground. On modern soaps, like Guza's GH, she would have been presented as some kind of hag clinging to a stud and paying with her life, beaten, spat on. On Succession, she was (even if she was not a central character) a much more complicated figure that many viewers, especially older female viewers, adored - "representation" without actually being treated as such.

I talked to @Vee about this at the time it aired, but there was an episode that truly made me yearn for the lost world of '50s, '60s, and '70s soaps, the layers and the very specific mix of being emotionally overpowered while being chilled to the bone that reminded me of my beloved ATWT and GL. 

You had the three Roy children each giving a eulogy, each coping with the lifelong abuse by their father in the only way they could - either trying to bargain, trying to become him, or falling apart entirely. It was both grueling and enthralling for me to watch, and yet it also made me very proud of what soaps were before weather machines and couples on the run to nowhere, and a glimpse into what they could be again in some other time or place, after the few remaining daytime staples have taken their last line.

 

Dealing with some family stuff at the moment, so I’m not posting much. Just jumping in to say this was a wonderfully written post (as expected from you) that makes me want to give Succession another shot. At a certain point, I found the characters too horrible to watch (and some of the dialogue a bit monotonous) so I dipped out. I find a lot of HBO series insular, nihilistic, and fashionably bleak, but you’ve made me do some fresh thinking on this one.

I’m glad the writer of the article seems to genuinely value soaps and their performers, which puts it a cut above most of these pieces.

Since the show was namechecked, I will never forget the scenes on OLTL in 2008 where Viki breaks down upon learning what Victor/Todd has done to Marty and goes to the family mausoleum to rage at her father. When Charlie finds her Viki tells him that despite all her accomplishments, once she's gone all people will ever remember her for is what her father did to her and to their family. It was a brutally candid and very good series of scenes and great work by all involved, especially Erika Slezak. But it did end with a note of hope about making your own future and own legacy, and leaving the rest behind; that Viki didn't have to be fully defined by her abuse. OLTL didn't always follow through on that in a responsible way of course, then or later considering the storyline they'd just told, but in terms of Viki and a way forward it was the right way to handle things IMO.

I think the article in the OP frankly hits a lot of points many of us or other journalists have already made, but in a more perfunctory way. We already know that everything prestige is soap now, and that they aren't being respected for it. We've known that a long time. Part of this is their own fault, because the remaining soaps continue to marginalize themselves even today in terms of content out of fear of their remaining audience and fear of losing it all if they break from inertia. GH should've played COVID everyday onscreen. They should have Portia, Liz, etc. on the front lines breaking the law to get a young woman (Joss, specifically) an abortion after corrupt local politicians temporarily institute a ban, as is happening in cities and states all over this country right now. There should be more representation, more honest, nuanced, in-depth exploration of contemporary issues in the ways our best legends rarely shirked from. This is the brief of the daytime drama that plays five days a week, year round. It is their social responsibility as part of the historical compact with their audience. If soaps want to survive they have to meet the moment, and make the culture that has pillaged from them stand up and take notice. They're not doing that. I truly hope someday, somehow they can.

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by Vee

1 minute ago, Faulkner said:

Dealing with some family stuff at the moment, so I’m not posting much. Just jumping in to say this was a wonderfully written post (as expected from you) that makes me want to give Succession another shot. At a certain point, I found the characters too horrible to watch (and some of the dialogue a bit monotonous) so I dipped out. I find a lot of HBO series insular, nihilistic, and fashionably bleak, but you’ve made me do some fresh thinking on this one.

I’m glad the writer of the article seems to genuinely value soaps and their performers, which puts it a cut above most of these pieces.

I'm sorry to hear about your family stuff. I always look forward to reading your posts, so well thought out, so I appreciate your kind words. You're not really wrong about the show, especially the early episodes, which have all those Adam McKay-isms that hit many of the beats you describe. I feel like more of the pathos seeps in once the second season rolls along, a balance is found, but I definitely get your hesitation, and the above description of HBO shows is one I've often felt in recent years (it's also a reason I tend to avoid the Sam Levinson shows but that's a whole other topic).

55 minutes ago, Vee said:

Since the show was namechecked, I will never forget the scenes on OLTL in 2008 where Viki breaks down upon learning what Victor/Todd has done to Marty and goes to the family mausoleum to rage at her father. When Charlie finds her Viki tells him that despite all her accomplishments, once she's gone all people will ever remember her for is what her father did to her and to their family. It was a brutally candid and very good series of scenes and great work by all involved, especially Erika Slezak. But it did end with a note of hope about making your own future and own legacy, and leaving the rest behind; that Viki didn't have to be fully defined by her abuse. OLTL didn't always follow through on that in a responsible way of course, then or later considering the storyline they'd just told, but in terms of Viki and a way forward it was the right way to handle things IMO.

I think the article in the OP frankly hits a lot of points many of us or other journalists have already made, but in a more perfunctory way. We already know that everything prestige is soap now, and that they aren't being respected for it. We've known that a long time. Part of this is their own fault, because the remaining soaps continue to marginalize themselves even today in terms of content out of fear of their remaining audience and fear of losing it all if they break from inertia. GH should've played COVID everyday onscreen. They should have Portia, Liz, etc. on the front lines breaking the law to get a young woman (Joss, specifically) an abortion after corrupt local politicians temporarily institute a ban, as is happening in cities and states all over this country right now. There should be more representation, more honest, nuanced, in-depth exploration of contemporary issues in the ways our best legends rarely shirked from. This is the brief of the daytime drama that plays five days a week, year round. It is their social responsibility as part of the historical compact with their audience. If soaps want to survive they have to meet the moment, and make the culture that has pillaged from them stand up and take notice. They're not doing that. I truly hope someday, somehow they can.

Thanks for reminding me of the Viki scene. I just went back and watched it for the first time in a very long time. (I forgot they had episode titles) The part where she says she wished she'd died young like Meredith so she never would have known what Victor was is haunting. Unfortunately most of my memories of how the show dealt with the Lord legacy is either Todd "joking" about Victor, or the hideous Victor return story in 2003, or the Jess/Tess/Bess saga, so that moment of the worst being remembered was very apt writing. I'm glad we at least got that set of scenes.

You're right about what we could still get with soaps, what made them unique in stories they told that primetime would never touch. Soaps that took chances and had individual identities. Almost impossible now, for the US or UK soaps (Casualty briefly tackled the subject but even they are mostly in their usual rut). 

I guess one positive about the prestige shows taking from soaps, even if the article is somewhat brief in talking about it (I do appreciate them mentioning Sarah Brown and not just sneering at or putting down the genre), is they aren't just doing what you got with a lot of network shows, especially CW shows, which only took the shipping and mainstreamed that aspect, rather than anything else. Knowing that some of the more nuanced aspects of daytime have left an imprint elsewhere makes me happier than I would have been a few years ago. I just wish there was some chance for the daytime genre itself to hang on beyond this slow death. I guess you never know. 10-15 years ago I never thought there would still be four on in 2023.

On 6/14/2023 at 2:01 PM, Faulkner said:

 I find a lot of HBO series insular, nihilistic, and fashionably bleak, but you’ve made me do some fresh thinking on this one.

I’m glad the writer of the article seems to genuinely value soaps and their performers, which puts it a cut above most of these pieces.

Exactly my thoughts on so many HBO shows. I like that soaps make you feel warm.

I have tried to get into succession, but a lot of the financial talk, feels esoteric. I have tried to get into succession, but a lot of the financial talk, feels esoteric. Maybe I haven't watched it enough, and perhaps it's like the Sopranos were the best parts of the show have to deal with Tony's personal and family drama.

It's very refreshing to read an article with beyond surface level knowledge of soaps like Luke & Laura and Erica Kane. I was amazed at the past and present knowledge and analysis the author provided. 

I love the comparison that shows like GH tried to copy primetime but fates reversed  in that a lot of streaming content takes serial and plot elements of soaps.