I can't get the link to the actual article (on wga.org) to work, so I'll post this link instead. Regardless, it's a pretty fun list, I think.

ETA: Did I say "fun"? I meant "bad." It's a bad list. (Sorry, y'all, lol.)

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Exclusive-Best-Written-Shows-Ever-TV-Writers-1066234.aspx

Edited June 4, 201312 yr by Khan

Nope, you aren't.

"Sex and the City"'s decline can be summed up in three words: Sarah. Jessica. Parker. The more powerful she became BTS, IMO, the worse the show grew. The show began as a satirical look at young, independent, professional women, living in an age and society where they could be as casual and non-commital about sex as men. Somewhere along the way, however, it became this improbable fairy tale about one alleged fashionista, her elusive d-bag of a Prince Charming and the non-stop drama on their inevitable way to the Happily Ever After.

And yet, because I tend to love continuing stories, I also tend to enjoy the last three or so seasons more than I do the beginning. Go figure, right?

Michael Patrick King taking over from Darren Star didn't help, IMHO. As anyonbe who has read his thoughts about his two movies can see, I think he deeply misunderstood the appeal of the series.

It's too bad Knots Landing isn't on there, although elitism made that impossible.

While I don't really know how daytime serieals could fit here (unless they only picked certain years) it seems odd to me that they even pretend that they looked at daytime serials the same way they did the other shows. Knots would have been my choice for out of the prmetime soaps for sure--but as you say, I doubt they took any of them seriously.,

I agree with whoever said Once & Again was better in terms of writing/3-D characters then Thirty something.

That was me. I think it just showed how strong Herskovitz/Zwick's talent at that kinda drama developed (the early episodes of thirtysomething, as much as I love the show, are hard to get through and really show all the negative criticisms the show got to be true--but they quickly got out of that.) My point was that I think while O&A was ultimately the deeper and stronger show, it isn't as iconic so quality asiode they pick thirtysomething instead, and I think lists like that often work that way.

Michael Patrick King taking over from Darren Star didn't help, IMHO. As anyonbe who has read his thoughts about his two movies can see, I think he deeply misunderstood the appeal of the series.

What did MPK say in regards to the movies? I thought the first one was...okay, although it was the one movie I watched in my hotel room my first-ever night in New York City, so that might explain why I didn't have too many issues with it. (Jennifer Hudson's character, though, was about as token as token could get.) But that second movie? Where the girls took off to Abu Dhabi just because, and absolutely no one's story moved forward at all? That was wretched.

Mary Tyler Moore and Dick Van Dyke Show are two shows I've always thought of as well written. I can't think of either show having a "bad"(as in awful/jump the shark) writing.

Same. Carl Reiner was smart not to let TDVDS go past five seasons (although Rose Marie thought it might have gone longer, had the producers switched to episodes in color). MTM's own series might have lasted maybe a season too long, but the cast and the writers knew those characters so well, it was a well-oiled machine from start to finish.

I agree with whoever said Once & Again was better in terms of writing/3-D characters then Thirty something.

I think what makes "Once & Again" a more engaging series than "thirtysomething" are two things: a willingness to tell more soapy stories, something the latter series tried to avoid before Nancy's Big Cancer Storyline; and the fact that Rick, Lily, etc. were generally less self-absorbed and more agreeable than the characters on "thirtysomething." As much as I love "thirtysomething," even I think those who complain about Hope and Ellen's emotional progression, or lack thereof, have a point.

Some of my favorite Knots material ever was from 89-91. You just had to wade through some of the crud.

Agree. Until the start of the '91-'92 season, KNOTS appeared to be firing on all cylinders. They even weathered the loss of Donna Mills (Abby) and had found a delicious, new villainess in the meantime with Linda, played by Lar Park Lincoln. Then, the Lechowicks left, followed by the Stanleys, and everything turned to crap. The show rebounded some when Ann Marcus came back in the latter half of the 13th season, but it never was the same.

Another show I don't think is on the list (unless I've overlooked it): "Family," starring Sada Thompson, James Broderick, Kristy MacNichol, Gary Frank and Meredith Baxter Birney. Because each episode was self-contained, it did suffer from Very Special Episode-itis, with each crisis resolved neatly at the end of sixty minutes (save for the occasional two-parter). But, as far as family dramas go, I'd rank its smart, sensitive writing right up there with the early, better years of "The Waltons." Plus, many good writers -- David Jacobs, Ron Cowen & Daniel Lipman, Channing Gibson, Marshall Herskovitz & Edward Zwick, Lawrence Konner, Richard Kramer -- wrote for the show.

Agree. Until the start of the '91-'92 season, KNOTS appeared to be firing on all cylinders. They even weathered the loss of Donna Mills (Abby) and had found a delicious, new villainess in the meantime with Linda, played by Lar Park Lincoln. Then, the Lechowicks left, followed by the Stanleys, and everything turned to crap. The show rebounded some when Ann Marcus came back in the latter half of the 13th season, but it never was the same.

There was some stuff that bothered me, like Tom/Paige, Mack's ruination, and some cheapness (the Danny Woleska story, which was well-acted, campy pulp, but beneath Knots), but a lot of good stuff too - Anne was the perfect foil for Paige and sexy, sleek, comic fun, Paige was a strong, complicated character, Linda was the true love to hate vixen, Claudia was a ruthless vulture hidden under Mother Courage. Some of my favorite scenes were in those years, like the one where Kate was reading to a dying Greg and he hallucinated that it was Mary Frances.

If people did not look down on the word "soap", it would be on that list.

They mostly seem to avoid British shows, but I think Sapphire and Steel deserved a spot.

(the Danny Woleska story, which was well-acted, campy pulp, but beneath Knots)

How so? (Not that I'm arguing with you on this point. I had my own issues with that particular story. But I'd like to know your thoughts.)

I love how you cited Claudia as one of the things you enjoyed during that period. Kathleen Noone was a revelation in that role after portraying AMC's Ellen Dalton for so long. Do you agree, though, that at some point, Claudia became hopelessly irredeemable, as many have suggested?

They mostly seem to avoid British shows, but I think Sapphire and Steel deserved a spot.

I think to be more fair, they should have just left out non American shows in geral, frankly--otherwise I truly have to question if they included a fair selection of, for example, British shows (and any list that leaves off Canadian gems like Littlest Hobo is messed up )

Edited June 4, 201312 yr by EricMontreal22

How so? (Not that I'm arguing with you on this point. I had my own issues with that particular story. But I'd like to know your thoughts.)

I love how you cited Claudia as one of the things you enjoyed during that period. Kathleen Noone was a revelation in that role after portraying AMC's Ellen Dalton for so long. Do you agree, though, that at some point, Claudia became hopelessly irredeemable, as many have suggested?

I just thought the story was too obvious of shock value, no real subtleties, or colors, and once Danny was revealed as a psycho, he was practically frothing at the mouth. The story also made Valene a victim...again, and I never really cared about Amanda's friend or Sally or whoever, although I thought the rape scene was chilling. The best part of the story for me was Julie and Frank.

I don't think Claudia should have stayed on the show after she - intentionally or not - killed her son. If she had had a complete breakdown and therapy, I might have accepted it, but instead she tried to kill herself and Kate was guilted into forgiving her. I never liked anything with the character after this.

I think to be more fair, they should have just left out non American shows in geral, frankly--otherwise I truly have to question if they included a fair selection of, for example, British shot s offCanadian gems like Littlest Hobo is messed up )

You're right. I'm not sure why Ab Fab is on there, especially since a lot of fans would say only the first year or two even worked.

Edited June 4, 201312 yr by CarlD2

Another show I don't think is on the list (unless I've overlooked it): "Family," starring Sada Thompson, James Broderick, Kristy MacNichol, Gary Frank and Meredith Baxter Birney. Because each episode was self-contained, it did suffer from Very Special Episode-itis, with each crisis resolved neatly at the end of sixty minutes (save for the occasional two-parter). But, as far as family dramas go, I'd rank its smart, sensitive writing right up there with the early, better years of "The Waltons." Plus, many good writers -- David Jacobs, Ron Cowen & Daniel Lipman, Channing Gibson, Marshall Herskovitz & Edward Zwick, Lawrence Konner, Richard Kramer -- wrote for the show.

I am not sure I would call COwen and Lipman good writers (...) but Family definitely is a pretty important show (speaking of Herskovitz/Zwick, I thinkit did inform a lot of their later TV writing style, for example which of course went on to influence people like Katims whyo now does Prenthood.) As far as influential teen shows, everyone talks about how groundbreaking the 70s short lived Jamesat 15/16 from novelist (and original Loving co-creator) Dan Wakefield.

What did MPK say in regards to the movies? I thought the first one was...okay, although it was the one movie I watched in my hotel room my first-ever night in New York City, so that might explain why I didn't have too many issues with it. (Jennifer Hudson's character, though, was about as token as token could get.) But that second movie? Where the girls took off to Abu Dhabi just because, and absolutely no one's story moved forward at all? That was wretched.

Oh just a lot of nonsense about what strong and importantfemale characters they were, how this was where the series was heading from day one, etc, etc. I already think his last season completely maligned the original theme of the series anyway (ie you dn'tneed a husband and family--you can make your friends your family, etc) but...

The show fell apart when it started taking itself so seriously. I don't know who told them that people saw these women as icons of feminism, but I don't believe that was the case. I also don't understand who told SJP that people wanted to see her as a serious actress. That's not what made her famous.