The initial story was good - and Erika Slezak's work is chilling - but it wasn't worth what was to come. Add in Noble Rapist #1 and Noble Rapist #2 and it's a living hell.

Yeah the first Victor revelation led to some really terrific stuff, but everytime they've gone back to it, it's been a bigger and bigger mistake.

I absolutely love & adore that pic they used for the unabortion part every time I see it What a beautiful family with so much potential. Loved them together so much. I loved Josh, big as a mistake he was. lol.

I grew to like Josh too--, and I admit after the fact that I did finally start to accept him, to then have Pratt kill him off the way he did just made me all the more annoyed.

Preeeeeeach! I would DEFINITELY put that in the top five. I think it only made 20-25. That's a perfect example of something that decimated the whole genre and probably resulted in some things that got rated higher like the unabortion.

Was reliance on focus groups on the list? I think that, and the increased interference of network execs was a bigger general problem than many of these. Even the writer roundelay has been going on since the 60s--arguably even the 50s--the egomaniac James Lipton not only "killed" a number of soaps, he never had a successful soap writing period, yet was even allowed to create a (flop) soap of his own with Best of Everything, and was still being hired by the time he ended Capitol. So it's a blunder that's been going on forever it seems, but should have been dealt with, and was made worse when focus groups and network interference played a part.

I do agree with the tragedy of the wiping of episodes, but am not sure I'd place it at number two, partly because this was a problem with a lot of tv, at lewast through to the early 70s, largely any tv that was recorded on video tape. I can only assume back then they really didn't realize what they were doing (although Dan Curtis at Dark Shadows did, as did Ryan's Hoope and some other examples)--but yes, it is a tragedy.

I know Carl says there is an audience for this and I guess there are movies that still play on this. Lifetime itself has been the classic station for the victim of the week movies but even there the men are not glorified and at the end of the day the woman does tend to always come out on top and the man portrayed as WE all see him as dead and gone normally. I don't get the degradation of women in this genre at all and I don't agree that a "strong woman" means bitch which is what we tend to see also. Sheffers columns and his interviews in that other thread were truly enlightening and it seems to exemplify how the writers in this genre see men and women. And I can't imagine any primetime audience ever being accepting of characters like Todd Manning, Adam Newman, EJ Dimera as dreamy romantic leads and accepting that "real men" abuse and demean women and that a man can only be sexy and edgy if they victimize women. Of course some would point to the OLTL ratings surge saying this is exactly what people want to see except look at where those ratings surges are. Certainly not in the 18-34 or even significantly in the 18-49 female audience.

Sadly, I do think there's an audience for it. I find shows like Criminal Minds often play on misogyny for their thrills, although it's a different type of situation I suppose.

Fair enough but Im not sure I would see any of these characters as "heros" in the same sense as they do the 3 I mentioned but I guess we can agree to disagree.

That's a good point, In the case of Mad Men, while it's true that many women (and men) despite all his flaws swoon over Don Draper, I don't think the show gives him a free pass by any means, the way some soaps have.

I don't watch any of the FX network shows anymore, since Damages went to Direct TV. I do know what you're referring to CarlD and that's why I don't watch Rescue Me or The Sons of Anarchy or Justfied. Yet, those three shows are basically about the male protagonists (and their bi**ches). I can see why those shows are mysogynist oasis.

Toi be fair, I know Sons of Anarchy has actually been criticized for portraying stronger women, with more control, than would "real;ly" exist in that setting.

Of course than you also have Ryan Murphy's Nip/Tuck but that was probably offensive (purposefully) to every group...

That's the only thing that makes me sad about AMC's ratings. People like Frons can point to that and say "See people don't tune in for the Hubbards (or Minx or Tad/Cara). Let's rape somebody!"

Agreed. In many ways AMC is the most traditional, "old school" soap right now--particularly on ABC, and I think that gave them the excuse to say that that's not what fans wanted.

Sadly, I do think there's an audience for it. I find shows like Criminal Minds often play on misogyny for their thrills, although it's a different type of situation I suppose.

One of these days you and I are going to have to meet at High Noon and have a real debate about Criminal Minds. Personally I find CM to be the least misogynistic procedural I've seen.

It DOES have some strong recurring female characters. I guess I just find the reliance on women being harmed in such gruesome ways tips the scale a bit too far in one direction--but I'd be open to being proven wrong there--I haven't watched much of it lately at all.

It DOES have some strong recurring female characters. I guess I just find the reliance on women being harmed in such gruesome ways tips the scale a bit too far in one direction--but I'd be open to being proven wrong there--I haven't watched much of it lately at all.

If you look at most of the female crime victims I think you'll see that CM has done a very good job of A.) keeping them human and B.) writing them as strong and resilient in the face of all that gruesomeness. CM is the only show where even though I've cringed watching it part of me has hoped that if I ever faced situations that heinous, I would remember what I saw on CM over something on SVU or CSI.

Like I said, one day you and I will have a real debate about this.

Fair enough, and that does make sense. I guess part of my issue with the show is just the continued hypocricy of American TV at showing such gruesome violence, but still be too scared to show a lot when it comes to sex and sexuality, unless it is connected to violence--but that's not necesarily the same as misogynistic.

I look forward to the results. I hope a lot of people vote. I voted again.

It DOES have some strong recurring female characters. I guess I just find the reliance on women being harmed in such gruesome ways tips the scale a bit too far in one direction--but I'd be open to being proven wrong there--I haven't watched much of it lately at all.

Criminal Minds started the sex/murder link when the new writers came in. I think it is all part of an effort to boost demos. For the first few seasons, CM was great in that it wasn't all about gruesome visuals. Also, the show was far more character driven. Reid and Garcia got a huge amount of attention which was geeky fun.

CM is one of those rare shows that has grown in demos with age. I wonder if this will continue with the pathetic cliff hanger last season that left a fan fav, Emily, up in the air?

I know they want to be timely, and get attention, and I do think cancelling OLTL was a mistake, but I don't understand why that was in the top 5. It's already too late, most likely, for daytime as we know it, and this is supposed to be about 70 years of history, not 70 weeks.

A few I would have put on there:

- Introducing Kimberly and the Novaks to Ryan's Hope, and failing to properly adjust Pat and Mary after the original actors left

- AW decimating the Matthews family

- P&G appointing John Valente and Black and Stern to take over ATWT

- Bob Guza being allowed to shat all over GH for 15 years

- New World locking the Dobsons out of Santa Barbara

- Saying that Victor Lord molested Viki

I don't think Valente, Black and Stern were all that bad for ATWT when you put their appointment in context. Marland was having trouble during his final year at ATWT, was in the process of getting rid of the Snyder family and had just introduced a number of new characters. Valente sole job was to trim the fat--get rid of misplaced, ageing vets who had no meaningful future on the show. A good example was Lyla: I loved the character but she no longer had a purpose, the KC story was cheezy, and she was a left over from two decades ago.

The Doubson's would have been the best replacement for Marland but they were black balled by then.

Lyla was written out a year and a half before Valente arrived.

While I agree some of the characters who were written out had run their course, I don't believe there was any valid reason to fire Scott DeFrietas.

It's easy to fire people. It's not so easy to replace them. Not one of the characters Valente or Black and Stern brought in was worth it, with the possible exception of Ben.

Lyla was written out a year and a half before Valente arrived.

While I agree some of the characters who were written out had run their course, I don't believe there was any valid reason to fire Scott DeFrietas.

It's easy to fire people. It's not so easy to replace them. Not one of the characters Valente or Black and Stern brought in was worth it, with the possible exception of Ben.

I thought Valente did some sort of blood bath? I was young back then, did not read soap mags, but thought he was hired to bring down cost.

As far as I know, Andy being let go was a CBS move. They felt he lacked sex appeal. He was cute, but ATWT had some fairly sexless men from the 80s-2011. First example I can remember was the Tom Hughes recast. ATWT did pretty men but never HOT like GL.

I loved Ben, not with Camile but with Denise and Jessica. Denise was a great character who somehow got lost in the shuffle. She was one of the last characters to live in the Hughes house before they trashed the set.

Edited September 16, 201114 yr by Saving ATWT

It DOES have some strong recurring female characters. I guess I just find the reliance on women being harmed in such gruesome ways tips the scale a bit too far in one direction--but I'd be open to being proven wrong there--I haven't watched much of it lately at all.

It's hard to write a series about FBI profilers and not realistically depict a society where woman are repeatedly victimized in all sorts of gruesome ways. I love CM because they don't pull a CSI where too clinically distant and techno babble. The victim and their suffering is often more the focus than the suspect on CM.

But I will say once they lost Gideon, CM lost its heart and soul. He was the voice of viewer appalled and sickened to the depths by the weekly atrocities and he never talked DOWN to Garcia the way that Rossi often does.

Edited September 16, 201114 yr by TeamEric