Um, so we have that ever lengthy thread on classic Y&R articles and discussion, I was wondering if we could do one for B&B? I mean the whole show is a hot mess and has been well at least since 2007/2008 and unwatchable but I'd like to think back to when I loved the show 1991ish-2006. A lot of stories liked and/or remember well have now been long forgotten like Ivana's murder and the mystery around it, Macy vs. Karen, Connor(someone mentioned him recently!) Dylan and Michael, CJ/Becky, Sly, Grant. Hell Macy was my favorite character right after Sally of course.

Edited June 27, 201114 yr by soapfan770

3 minutes ago, Videnbas said:

I have always wondered about John F. Smith's role as a B&B writer. All the way from the beginning, he has been credited in second place after Bill Bell and when I google him it seems he was associate head writer 1987-2002. And I have always felt that the most noticeable shift in the show happened some time after 2002/2003. So I have to wonder if he provided some "creative stability" when Brad took over as HW. 

Smith was an important writer at both B&B and Y&R and worked on both show simultaneously at times. Credit-wise we know very little how the writing team worked from 1987-1993 because script writers did not exist until then. From some interviews we know that Bill Bell sometimes wrote VERY detailed outlines and even drafted some dialogue as part of his head-writing duties. John Smith always seemed to be a lay-outer who cut Bill's story-projections for a certain week into single episodes (breakdown writer) and regularly drafted the dialogue. Brad Bell also served in this capacity from 1989-1993. From at least 1994 to 2001, the writing duties were shared as followed: Brad Bell as headwriter, Jack Smith as breakdown writer and occasional script writer. Then for half of 2002 (basically Sheila's run) John Smith was promoted co-head writer to get a kick start on leadership before becoming lead head writer over at Y&R. He was never credited above Brad Bell, though - unlike those May 1993 episodes!?

For the past decade or so, it seems like Michael Minnis, originally a script writer at both B&B (he wrote most of Sheila's episodes 1996-1998) and Y&R, has taken the John F. Smith role at B&B.

40 minutes ago, sheilaforever said:

Smith was an important writer at both B&B and Y&R and worked on both show simultaneously at times. Credit-wise we know very little how the writing team worked from 1987-1993 because script writers did not exist until then. From some interviews we know that Bill Bell sometimes wrote VERY detailed outlines and even drafted some dialogue as part of his head-writing duties. John Smith always seemed to be a lay-outer who cut Bill's story-projections for a certain week into single episodes (breakdown writer) and regularly drafted the dialogue. Brad Bell also served in this capacity from 1989-1993. From at least 1994 to 2001, the writing duties were shared as followed: Brad Bell as headwriter, Jack Smith as breakdown writer and occasional script writer. Then for half of 2002 (basically Sheila's run) John Smith was promoted co-head writer to get a kick start on leadership before becoming lead head writer over at Y&R. He was never credited above Brad Bell, though - unlike those May 1993 episodes!?

For the past decade or so, it seems like Michael Minnis, originally a script writer at both B&B (he wrote most of Sheila's episodes 1996-1998) and Y&R, has taken the John F. Smith role at B&B.

Thanks! That's a lot of interesting information!

I guess I'm trying to figure out how the show could go from well-crafted storytelling with a "professional" feel (sure, some storylines were better than others, but still basic structural things like shaping a story arc, setup and payoff, dramatic turning points in each individual scene as well as in the overall plots, basic characterization by "showing rather than telling", and so on, were always in place) to the "make-it-up-as-you-go along" rambling poorly paced inconsistent mess that is the show today.

I think that is the most frustrating part of watching the current episodes and the classic ones side by side. It's not even about the storylines or the cast, it's the difference in structure that really gets to me.

4 hours ago, Videnbas said:

I think that is the most frustrating part of watching the current episodes and the classic ones side by side. It's not even about the storylines or the cast, it's the difference in structure that really gets to me.

Some time in the early 2000s B&B started to follow the trend to "speed up" storylines. Hence actual built-up fell out of the window, yet there were multiple storylines and at least the climax of these stories was often to die for. Then by 2008 (after the writer's strike headlined by Kay Alden) it started to get really sloppy story-wise and we ended up with mostly one A story and the occasional appearance of other characters in so-called stories which lasted 5 episodes max. By 2020, IMO, the show took a turn for the better by bringing back at least 2-3 actual rotating storylines. Unfortunately, only on very few occasion more than one storyline takes place within one episode. Pacing also still feels off, but this might be linked to the show's production model of always taping at least 2 episodes per day. Therefore two episodes often feel like one big episode stretched to the max, e.g. same characters/similar conversation. The production model was implemented in Spring 2005 leading the longer stuido break around Christmas, late March around the show's b-day and summer (usual late July-August) where the lights are dark for 3-4 weeks at Television City.

On 6/15/2022 at 9:56 AM, Videnbas said:

The first time around, I was watching this as a young girl with my mother. I was maybe 11 or 12 when I first watched these 1993 episodes. And I was completely Team Bridge because I believed they were "destined" to be together and I thought it was romantic. This time around, I am in my late 30s with a family of my own and my perceptions are completely different. Sure, I still feel that Ridge married Taylor partly on the rebound, but he was committed to his marriage and clearly happily married, and Ridge and Taylor had a healthy way of communicating about their issues. Meanwhile, Brooke spent the entirety of her pregnancy scheming and plotting trying to get Ridge to leave his wife for her, and after Bridget's birth, she became even more aggressive in her pursuit of Ridge, who really didn't encourage her all that much. And my sympathies are entirely with Taylor - even though I don't even particularly like the Taylor character - because here she is clearly in the right and Brooke is clearly in the wrong, because Ridge has chosen to be married to Taylor. Brooke comes across as extremely disrespectful not only of Taylor but of Ridge too. And Brooke and Karen plotting together on how to lure Ridge away from his wife (while Karen is already living with a married man knowing he still loves his wife) is pretty sickening to me now.

Speaking of Karen: it's a HUGE storyline bomb that by spring 1993 the writers have zero interest in the character. Her friendship with Brooke makes absolutely no sense to me after she was made to believe that Ridge is the man of dreams because she is Caroline 2.0. Then, she is working at Spectra and should focus all her energy into making her mark at company - plus, she has that "solid" relationship with Thorne which is based on a lie or at least some not-telling. Befriending Brooke is completely counter-productive to get into the good graces of Stephanie as well. I appreciated that scene with Karen standing up to the Forrester matriarch that she is making her own life choices. Yet, it does not make so much sense in the first that Brooke and Karen spend so much time together. Sally and Brooke could have worked... Here, the writers felt the need to use Joanana Johnson's contract guarantees for something and did not find a better than to make the replacement of Katie, Donna or a nanny who is listening to Brooke's sh*t and gushing about it.

Edited June 16, 20223 yr by sheilaforever

1 hour ago, sheilaforever said:

Some time in the early 2000s B&B started to follow the trend to "speed up" storylines. Hence actual built-up fell out of the window, yet there were multiple storylines and at least the climax of these stories was often to die for. Then by 2008 (after the writer's strike headlined by Kay Alden) it started to get really sloppy story-wise and we ended up with mostly one A story and the occasional appearance of other characters in so-called stories which lasted 5 episodes max. By 2020, IMO, the show took a turn for the better by bringing back at least 2-3 actual rotating storylines. Unfortunately, only on very few occasion more than one storyline takes place within one episode. Pacing also still feels off, but this might be linked to the show's production model of always taping at least 2 episodes per day. Therefore two episodes often feel like one big episode stretched to the max, e.g. same characters/similar conversation. The production model was implemented in Spring 2005 leading the longer stuido break around Christmas, late March around the show's b-day and summer (usual late July-August) where the lights are dark for 3-4 weeks at Television City.

Speaking of Karen: it's a HUGE storyline bomb that by spring 1993 the writers have zero interest in the character. Her friendship with Brooke makes absolutely no sense to me after she was made to believe that Ridge is the man of dreams because she is Caroline 2.0. Then, she is working at Spectra and should focus all her energy into making her mark at company - plus, she has that "solid" relationship with Thorne which is based on a lie or at least some not-telling. Befriending Brooke is completely counter-productive to get into the good graces of Stephanie as well. I appreciated that scene with Karen standing up to the Forrester matriarch that she is making her own life choices. Yet, it does not make so much sense in the first that Brooke and Karen spend so much time together. Sally and Brooke could have worked... Here, the writers felt the need to use Joanana Johnson's contract guarantees for something and did not find a better than to make the replacement of Katie, Donna or a nanny who is listening to Brooke's sh*t and gushing about it.

Yeah, Karen is pretty much in limbo by spring 1993. She is basically just one of several obstacles for Thorne/Macy, and the focus isn't even on her in that storyline either. The problem is that her "romance" with Thorne absolutely does not work on screen (meanwhile, she has like ONE scene with Ridge in this time period and there is decidedly unintended chemistry there). And her friendship with Brooke also does very little for Karen's character development. Oddly, though, Karen seems to connect pretty well with Macy (which in terms of storyline is counterintuitive but it's there. Their brief scene in the bathroom after the food fight, bonding over their mutual misery, loss of dignity, and the stupidity of their living arrangements, was the best part of that entire contrived storyline).

Edited June 16, 20223 yr by Videnbas

 The Karen Macy living together has been the worst Bill Bell story ever.

12 minutes ago, divinemotion said:

 The Karen Macy living together has been the worst Bill Bell story ever.

Yeah, it was not a good look for either woman (and it made Thorne look pretty bad too). Which is why I basically cheered when they finally saw the light, decided they'd both had it, and teamed up to get Thorne to make up his mind already.

Edited June 16, 20223 yr by Videnbas

On 6/13/2022 at 4:31 PM, Videnbas said:

I'm not sure I understood the question right - is it about which current characters are similar to or based on classic B&B characters?

I think it's really hard to answer because the current characters are nowhere near as well-developed as the classic ones, so it's not easy to make a comparison.

I guess Hope/Liam/Steffy are supposed to be a next generation Brooke/Ridge/Taylor, but the characters aren't really that similar to their classic counterparts (other than Liam having inherited Ridge's indecisiveness, and the girls having inherited their mothers' strange attraction for a man who will never settle permanently for either one of them).

Wyatt is in a similar position to Thorne - always playing the knight in shining armor to the women who are in love with his brother.

Dollar Bill has some similarities to his namesake Bill Sr, but Bill Sr was a lot more sophisticated on the surface.

Carter is possibly the modern Connor Davis - everyone's lawyer but without any luck in his own personal life.

Paris and Finn are virtually blank as characters - I can't think of any classic counterpart to either of them.

I feel like Steffy is a mix of Ridge and Stephanie, Finn is Taylor, Hope is possibly Beth? Liam is kinda Eric, and I agree with Wyatt. 

 

Edited June 16, 20223 yr by Soapfan8

2 hours ago, Soapfan8 said:

I feel like Steffy is a mix of Ridge and Stephanie, Finn is Taylor, Hope is possibly Beth? Liam is kinda Eric, and I agree with Wyatt. 

 

In the beginning Steffy was more like Brooke and Hope was more like (pre 2005) Taylor. Hope was calmer and the nice one where was Steffy was the wilder, villanous and more sexually agressive one. 

Does anyone know what episode Videoland is at now? I hope they are still airing the classic episodes and that one of the angels will eventually be able to upload... the show is so good!

I hope so too!

2 hours ago, Videnbas said:

Does anyone know what episode Videoland is at now? I hope they are still airing the classic episodes and that one of the angels will eventually be able to upload... the show is so good!

Latest episode on Videoland is 1670. 
Storylines:

- Lauren/Scott/Sheila/Eric on Catalina Island

- Brooke/Ridge work on the men’s line

- Taylor helping James Warwick with Sofia

- Anthony Armando has joined Spectra, much to Macy’s annoyance. 

Side note, Kimberlin is very pregnant in these 1993 episodes. Sheila will disappear soon unfortunately. Does anyone remember how long KB was offscreen at that point?

Not totally familiar with B&B BITD when Joanna Johnson was brought back as Karen, but am I correct in saying that  Ridge/Karen was never explored?

Despite the fact that Ronn Moss/Joanna Johnson had clicked previously and it was an obvious story to have Ridge entranced by Karen due to her resemblance to Caroline and for Karen to be captivated by Ridge,

Even if they didn't want Ridge/Karen as a major couple at least it should have been explored?

2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Not totally familiar with B&B BITD when Joanna Johnson was brought back as Karen, but am I correct in saying that  Ridge/Karen was never explored?

Despite the fact that Ronn Moss/Joanna Johnson had clicked previously and it was an obvious story to have Ridge entranced by Karen due to her resemblance to Caroline and for Karen to be captivated by Ridge,

Even if they didn't want Ridge/Karen as a major couple at least it should have been explored?

 

It was explored in exactly the way you described. In fact, Blake Hayes did everything he could to orchestrate a Karen/Ridge relationship based on basically transforming Karen into Caroline. But in the end, he didn't succeed. And I think it was ultimately for the best, because Karen's transformation into a Caroline replica had this somewhat (=very) unhealthy feel to it, and a Karen/Ridge relationship would also have felt too much like it was based on transference of feelings.

Nevertheless, Karen and Ridge still had chemistry, for obvious reasons. And the show struggled (and failed) to find any other viable pairing for JJ.

The biggest problems of 1990 to 1993 are too much darkness.. I love these years... but Bill Bell became too dark at point. I remember at one time it was unbearable... with Jake and his molestation story... with Stephanie and the homeless... It just went too dark at times... But then there were the amazing storylines... and 1993 is really the best ever... Characters I don't think worked.

1. Karen. Her scenes were very dull and boring... She lacked the Caroline magic... Even though I didn't like Caroline... her leukimia storyline was AMAZING and I think the best one Bill Bell wrote in BB. Karen was a Caroline wannabe and it didnt work.

2.MICK SAVAGE - Do I need to say more... This character was like a black hole... I couldn't wait for him to go away.

3.Felicia - too idiotic and you couldnt root for her.

4. Jake - his story was always plot driven. He was just a device for some socially important storytelling. Didnt have the energy to fit with the other stories.

5. Julie - The Margot repeat.

6. Also Margo after she gave birth... the character went downhill.

 

I think Blake can be added to that list. Although we had some good scenes with him at the very end his character was difficult to like.