3 hours ago, P.J. said:

It is just so amazing to me that anyone would've thought that Roger could "be straightened out". Maybe I can cut Bert slack because this was so much earlier in his story, but it still annoys me that Maureen "was friends with" him.

At the time that Roger had married Peggy, he was just misguided and was more of a grey character... and Peggy was his best chance at redemption.

Maureen, on the other hand, saw the shred of good in him... and also decided to stick it to Ed/Holly by always siding with him.   It's a shame that focus groups didn't recognize that was a flaw worth exploring... or she might have been spared.

On 10/29/2025 at 5:21 PM, P.J. said:

Now I remember the recap. That's the Christmas Vanessa spent dead. I would maybe rewatch, but I'm just not into Billy and Reva's "friendship". 

I love the chemistry between Zimmer and Clarke...so I can cut it slack. I loved it best when Billy had her number (while still wanting to f*ck her) but I chalk it up to finding out they had a kid(well Billy finding out) and time passing. Say what you will about Zimmer, she has some great "buddy" chemistry with actors, which is a shame that Rauch turned her into a soccer mom/middle aged temptress so man could not get a hard over.  

That Christmas was the weird transition period where they were still falling McTavish's outlines and Rauch had yet to exert his...uh..taste on the show. They were bringing people back willynilly for the anniversary and Jordan was one of them (Fiona was supposed to be a few episodes) but it was all so messy and convoluted. They brought Dylan back before the holiday I think so he never had a scene with his dad returned from jail. I thought it would have been interesting instead of the dreaded diner, he got a job at Company and he and Nola started a thing...(how was Brown and Clarke's chemistry...they didn't have many scenes on her first run, besides Billy catching Van's arm when she is acting like she wants to stab her with a hair pin) to get ready for the return of Van...his real love, giving a good run to another Van/Nola conflict and leaving boring Matt to sit it out. 

4 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

At the time that Roger had married Peggy, he was just misguided and was more of a grey character... and Peggy was his best chance at redemption.

Maureen, on the other hand, saw the shred of good in him... and also decided to stick it to Ed/Holly by always siding with him.   It's a shame that focus groups didn't recognize that was a flaw worth exploring... or she might have been spared.

What's the point that Roger crosses the line from misguided to amoral? 

 

Edited October 31Oct 31 by P.J.

2 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

I love the chemistry between Zimmer and Clarke...so I can cut it slack. I loved it best when Billy had her number (while still wanting to f*ck her) but I chalk it up to finding out they had a kid(well Billy finding out) and time passing. Say what you will about Zimmer, she has some great "buddy" chemistry with actors, which is a shame that Rauch turned her into a soccer mom/middle aged temptress so man could not get a hard over.  

That Christmas was the weird transition period where they were still falling McTavish's outlines and Rauch had yet to exert his...uh..taste on the show. They were bringing people back willynilly for the anniversary and Jordan was one of them (Fiona was supposed to be a few episodes) but it was all so messy and convoluted. They brought Dylan back before the holiday I think so he never had a scene with his dad returned from jail. I thought it would have been interesting instead of the dreaded diner, he got a job at Company and he and Nola started a thing...(how was Brown and Clarke's chemistry...they didn't have many scenes on her first run, besides Billy catching Van's arm when she is acting like she wants to stab her with a hair pin) to get ready for the return of Van...his real love, giving a good run to another Van/Nola conflict and leaving boring Matt to sit it out. 

I know I sound like a broken record re: Reva, and I assume that if you examined most of her friendships, they're all lopsided in her favor. Billy just has the misfortune of being the last man standing, so to speak.

Billy and Nola really don't interact that much. There a little bit around the planning of Billy and Vanessa's wedding. And a funny bit where over a heated game of poker that Billy ends up pulling Van out of harms way when Nola's ready to slug her. But honestly, I don't think I've ever caught a direct, one on one conversation between Billy and Nola. 

I could see them conspiring to help Vanessa when she was sick or something...and goodness knows anything would've been more palatable to me than the bland drippiness of &&&&.

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

What's the point that Roger crosses the line from misguided to amoral?

I would say it began when his marriage to Peggy crumbled. Plus, he hated Ed for taking his place as Christina's father.

He also became very ambitious when he married Holly. It wasn't mentioned much, but Holly had a lot of money, from an inheritance, I believe. So besides hating that Holly still loved Ed, who was Christina's father to the rest of the world, he also wanted to be successful so he could have as much or more money than Holly.

He was jealous of Alan's success while wanting to be like him at the same time. That's why he relished blackmailing him.

So it was a tsunami of things: losing Peggy and Billy, forced to watch Ed in his place as Christina's father, watching his two ex-lovers Rita and Holly mooning over Ed, feeling inadequate as a breadwinner.

A lot of people might experience similar things in their lives and not become a total sociopath, but Roger was always an iffy guy. This stuff all together pushed him over the edge.

Thanks @DeeVee . I always thought Holly just got her money from a rich ex. 

(I'm surprised they never brought her ex on the show in those 89-95 years where she had frequent story)

7 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Thanks @DeeVee . I always thought Holly just got her money from a rich ex. 

Some of her money may have come from that. I mean, she bought a TV station.

But when she was young and totally infatuated with Roger, she used her money to get him out of whatever current jam he was in.

Yes, I also wondered why Mr. Lindsey never showed up. Especially the years Alan was off the canvas. They could have used a rich, suave millionaire on the show. He could have been a rival for Roger when it came to Alex as well as Holly.

Edited October 31Oct 31 by DeeVee

Stanley Norris, Holly's father was rich with a capital R. 

I've always wanted to see that early Norris family material as on paper it all sounds a little dull to me and I wonder how it played out onscreen. I think Kathryn Hays was also briefly playing Leslie in that period. 

For those unaware, it was through Dietrich that Holly cut her teeth in the media business.  He owned TV stations in Sweden.  That would have been from 1981-1988 when Holly was off-screen.  I am thankful that Holly had sufficient time away for the writers to develop some decent backstory for her.

It would have been good to bring him back late 1993/early 1994, as Roger and Jenna were making that play for Spaulding (what the heck, have Dietrich also be a suspect in that potting shed incident) .  Have Dietrich sniff around WSPR right before Roger and Jenna lose their bid for Spaulding.  That way, when Roger makes his move to take over WSPR in its entirety, Dietrich has already blocked it.

Dietrich also could have been instrumental to Gilly's future...especially after A-M also loses his bid for Spaulding.  Maybe it's with her help that he stops Roger.  Gilly certainly would have the motivation.

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, DeeVee said:

Yes, I also wondered why Mr. Lindsey never showed up. Especially the years Alan was off the canvas. They could have used a rich, suave millionaire on the show. He could have been a rival for Roger when it came to Alex as well as Holly.

That would have been great....hell, I would have written RR off as Alan and brought Dietrich on, plus, we could have avoided Fletcher and Holly!

 

10 hours ago, P.J. said:

I could see them conspiring to help Vanessa when she was sick or something...and goodness knows anything would've been more palatable to me than the bland drippiness of &&&&.

Good idea...The could have used Nola and Billy in the search for Vanessa instead of Dinah and &&&& (I LOVE this) Nola and Billy know Van better and have the instincts to get to the bottom. Nola, instead of making her the cynical druge not think Van was alive, could have instictively thought so and shared that with Billy.  Billy should have been the one to find her and try to bring her back..but also let her decide if and when she wants to do so. Van would get him to lie to Nola, cause of her big mouth, and the two of them could have scenes together talking about their past, etc. And how great would it be if &&&& to see that Billy found her and she trusts him more. Maybe he would go back to turning tricks by the docks!

I also wanted a scene where Nola cock blocks Matt and Dinah.. and have a Dinah/Nola argument..."Dinah, with all of my issues with your mother, even at her worst she had more class in her finger then you have in your whole body. Being a slut is all well and good, but chasing after your step father is trailer trash behavior!"

5 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

For those unaware, it was through Dietrich that Holly cut her teeth in the media business.

Seriously? The guy's name was Dietrich Lindsey? I guess his mother was Swiss-German and his father was Scottish/Northern English?

Of course, it's not impossible someone would have that name, but like the Harlan Billy thing, it just doesn't FLOW. Ficitional characters should have names that flow.

They needed a consultant to help them name characters. (They do exist. The show Friends used consultants to name Ross and Rachel's baby Emma, because they wanted to pick a trending name that wasn't overused at the time).

Almost 40 years later, I'm still trying to figure out how they dug up the name "Sonni" for a girl born in Venezuela. My family lived in Spain for years, my dad's family was from Puerto Rico, my sister married a Venezuelan man, I lived in Miami for over 25 years, I have traveled all over Latin America, and I have never, EVER heard of a Latina girl named Sonni.

Again, it's not impossible. Girls named Sonni in Venezuela may exist. And sure, I'll give them props for being more creative than falling back on the name Maria, but they went too far in the other direction, IMO.

I think what really bothers me more than anything is it didn't add anything to her character. The name conjures up a cute blond tomboy type from the 1960s. The name Sol or Solita would have not only been more appropriate for the character's heritage, it would have fit the character more.

2 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

That would have been great....hell, I would have written RR off as Alan and brought Dietrich on, plus, we could have avoided Fletcher and Holly!

It's possible they would have never written Alan back in if they;d had Deitrich on the canvas, or it would have been another Kyle Sampson situation, where they would have dumped Deitrich in favor of bringing Alan back. But if Deitrich was a successful character he could have saved us from many bad, bad storylines.

Edited October 31Oct 31 by DeeVee

I'm watching House of Guinness, and it reminds me that I assumed Holly was in a "lavender marriage" with Dietrich.  She was so ready for romance when she returned, it seemed like Holly helped Dietrich inherit the family business, built a media empire, and then she saw that her daughter needed her, so she left him to party in Europe while she came back to Springfield and bought the TV station.  Which explains why there were no kids from that union, or pesky step-daughters like India.

In the early 1980s, it was still popular for rich Americans to marry into aristocracy to save the family once taxation on historic estates became an issue (sort of like Alexandra and the von Halkein) .  I always assumed that was how Holly got her title.

Edited October 31Oct 31 by j swift

2 minutes ago, j swift said:

'm watching House of Guinness, and it reminds me that I assumed Holly was in a "lavender marriage" with Dietrich.  She was so ready for romance when she returned, it seemed like Holly helped Dietrich inherit the family business, built a media empire, and then she saw that her daughter needed her, so she left him to party in Europe while she came back to Springfield and bought the TV station.

In the early 1980s, it was still popular for rich Americans to marry into aristocracy to save the family once taxation on historic estates became an issue.  I always assumed that was how Holly got her title.

For a guy who never showed up in SF, he sure sounds interesting!

14 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

For a guy who never showed up in SF, he sure sounds interesting!

Hmmm. Dietrich Lindsey on the DL....played by someone like Perry King (hubahuba) soaps first gay meglamaniac! ("So Dietrich, just WHAT do you propose I do to pay up that blackmail?")

What I don't get is with Holly's money, she is fired at the station, lives in Revabend...MG actually lit a fire under RR in that one scene they had (not counting the hilarious scene when Alan calls her to tell her about the clone, and she is drunk and tells him to go f*ck himself and his b.s.) so it would have been nice to see Holly buy her way into the Spaulding factory of evil.

Edited October 31Oct 31 by Mitch64