Another World

[mikeaw1978]

 

The novels weren't a collaboration between the author and the show's producers, writers, etc. I honestly regard the novels as something a fan wrote covering the stories that played out onscreen from her/his point of view and adding their own details in spots. I have not found any instances on screen or in the scripts in all of my research where Michael's name was revealed to be a namesake of Mike Bauer, either when Pat was expecting, first had the twins, or afterwards. This is not a case of retconning. This is a fan theory and nothing more until I find evidence otherwise. Yes, retcons happen. One example is Liz's marriage to Will being loveless. Janet and Susan asserted from their perspective that Liz emasculated men in her life (Will, Fred Douglas), but Will and Liz loved each other. Liz took a long time coming to terms with his unexpected death at 48 years old and had a hard accepting being a widow. 

 

Unfortunately, sometimes soap press can get things wrong and it takes time for something to be disprovent such as the entire Gregory family being killed off in a plane crash. It took years to disprove that. Big reason was the necessary scripts are not among the reels at Bowling Greene and are in a separate collection that Eddie discovered.

Edited July 26, 2024 by mikeaw1978

[Mona Kane Croft]

Well, the authors were not exactly fans. They were professional writers who were paid by publishers to write the books. In fact, the authors may not have been fans of AW at all. That is unknown, I believe.

Yes, you are correct, the novels were not collaborations between the authors and the show's writers and producers. But the authors did have permission from P&G to use characters and storylines from the show.  Plus, they must have had access to scripts (or at least very detailed episode synopsis, which I don't think existed at that time) because most of the novels were written years after the material had been aired.  So someone at P&G Productions must have at least guided the authors in the right direction to find the scripts. The books were not written completely independent of P&G Productions.  The authors had both permission and at least some minimal level of assistance from P&G.  This is not an attempt to argue with you, but more of a clarification.

And I do certainly agree with you that the novels are not cannon.   

Edited July 27, 2024 by Mona Kane Croft

[Khan]

What really happened to the Gregorys?  And where did the plane crash myth come from?  It seems like someone killed off a bunch of unnecessary characters that way, but no one can say for certain on which show it happened, lol.

Edited July 27, 2024 by Khan

[Contessa Donatella]

I believe the Gregorys just kind of wandered off. Basically, I don't think Agnes Nixon had any intention of writing for those characters. Truthfully they should never have existed. James Lipton also shouldn't have been HWing that, or any show. That only counts as canon in my book, though. And, at least we do know that Nixon never pulled anything remotely like killing off characters on a plane crash. Someone else, somewhere, surely must have done the deed. 

[Mona Kane Croft]

If my memory is correct, the Gregorys were written-off more or less one at a time.  I believe only one of them died, but not in a plane crash.  And one of the male members of the family (Ernest Gregory, I believe) stayed in Bay City for a longer period and was involved with Janet Matthews.  I don't know where the plane crash myth originated, but I do not think it ever happened on any US soap opera.  

Another myth regarding the Gregorys was that Lipton created the Gregorys to replace the Matthews family.  If you read the episode synopsis or available scripts, it is easy to see that the Matthews were front and center throughout Lipton's time at AW.  The Gregorys were created to replace the exiting Baxter family, and they did that well enough, I suppose. The Gregorys were never intended to replace the Matthews family.   

Edited July 27, 2024 by Mona Kane Croft

[mikeaw1978]

I have no idea the source of the legend of the fatal plane crash involving the Gregorys. Something like that seemed uncharacteristic of Agnes Nixon to do upon further research. Julie Poll had mentioned that interns went through the script collection at Bowling Greene (the June 1964-December 1979 scripts on microfilm reels) as part of the process of compiling the book. It's likely that they didn't know about a separate paper scripts collection (June 1964-October 1966) that includes scripts for August 1, 1965 - October 29, 1965, which seemed to be donated years later. Eddie found them by a stroke of luck. We were pleased to fill out details for that period.

The problem with the Gregory family is, aside from Pat (with Ernest at first) and Janet, they barely interacted with the Matthews. There was this build up over Ernest seeing his brother, Alex and former fiance, Karen after being estranged for 10 years along with Janet's apprehension towards meeting Karen. But once it happened, everything lost momentum. Aside from Alex's objections to Karen returning to nursing, the family was written out fairly quietly. Alex died from a car accident off screen while he and Karen were driving to meet friends. 

There were some really scathing notes on the scripts during Lipton's last few weeks as head writer. I don't know if they were from Nixon as she prepared to take over or someone else. Nixon made a wise decision with the Gregorys though. She introduced Katherine Corning (Missy's mother) and Helen Moore, who would be pivotal for Missy, Liz, and Bill for months. Unfortunately, after Janet broke off her engagement to Ernest, she became a confidante to Pat, but was relegated to the backburner until she left in June 1966. 

One of the things I most appreciate about Lemay is that he didn't do a cast overhaul and bombard the show with his own characters upon becoming head writer. When he assumed the role of headwriter, I don't know if he was following Cenedella's story projections or whether it was his decision, but he only wrote out Dan Shearer, Susan, and Caroline Johnson. I think Dan and Susan were heading for an exit anyway and the Caroline Johnson story had gone on too long, despite the conclusion being disappointing. Aside from Mark Venable and some minor characters, his first major characters were Iris, Louise, Dennis, and Eliot, which wasn't until December 1972. Over a year from when he started. Gil McGowan was created in June 1972, but it seems like the character may have been recurring until Dolph Sweet took over. 

Edited July 27, 2024 by mikeaw1978

[Contessa Donatella]

I am one who is loving your descriptions of what happened, by whom, and why. Thanks so much for sharing in this way. 

[mikeaw1978]

One legend that actually proved to be true was that Irna Philips had planned to kill off Alice in a fire while she was at a summer camp. At first, I thought it was far-fetched, but then Jacquie Courtney referenced in an interview.

I admire actors like Jacquie, Charles Baxter, and Murial Williams. Charles Baxter was for the most part a background, supporting character until his romance with Susan and Alice was mostly supporting until Steve arrived. So, the fact that they stayed in their roles for so long before finally getting story is admirable to me. 

Aside from Sunset Beach and Another World, did any other soap have such a difficult first couple months?

Edited July 27, 2024 by mikeaw1978

[Khan]

I'm DYING to know what those notes entailed, lol!

[DRW50]

I suppose you could count Lovers & Friends and How to Survive a Marriage.

Thanks for all the info you're giving - I have read up on some of the Lipton period but you're helping to clarify just why the material didn't take off beyond the usual answer (that he was a bad writer).

I would love to know why Irna became so obsessed with killing characters off in fires, which she was repeatedly stopped from doing (the other was Liz on ATWT). 

 

[Contessa Donatella]

Well, the history of soaps is littered with shows that not only had a lot of trouble early on, but they failed! They didn't make it past 18 months, 2 years, etc. 

Of course, I find it notable that Irna Phillips had two primary proteges & she was involved in the creation of 2 soaps for NBC which both struggled early on and were almost canceled. Bill Bell saved DAYS OF OUR LIVES and Agnes Nixon saved ANOTHER WORLD. Of course when it is written about it's stated that Betty Corday hired 2 people Bill Bell and Wes Kenney.

[Contessa Donatella]

Ben Jarrod NBC 1963

The Bennetts NBC 1953-54

The Best of Everything ABC 1970

The City ABC 1995-97                              

The Clear Horizon CBS 1960-62

Concerning Miss Marlowe NBC 1954-55

Confidential for Women ABC 1966

A Date with Life NBC 1955-56

The Egg & I CBS 1951-52

Fairmeadows USA NBC 1951-52

The First Hundred Years CBS 1950-52

First Love NBC 1954-55

A Flame in the Wind ABC 1964-66 

Follow Your Heart NBC 1953-54

For Better or Worse CBS 1959-60

For Richer, For Poorer NBC 1977-78 

Full Circle CBS 1960-61

Generations NBC 1989-91 

Golden Windows NBC 1954-55

The Greatest Gift NBC 1954-55

Hidden Faces NBC 1968-69

Hotel Cosmopolitan CBS 1957-58

The House on High Street NBC 1959-60

How to Survive a Marriage NBC 1974-75

Kitty Foyle NBC 1958

Lovers & Friends NBC 1977

Miss Susan NBC 1951

Moment of Truth NBC 1965

Morning Star NBC 1965-66

Never Too Young ABC 1965-66 

The Nurses ABC 1965-67

One Man’s Family NBC 1949-55 

Our Five Daughters NBC 1962

Paradise Bay NBC 1965-66 (N7)

Portia Faces Life CBS 1954-55

Return to Peyton Place NBC 1972-74

The Road of Life CBS 1954-55

Road to Reality ABC 1960-61

The Seeking Heart CBS 1954-55

Sunset Beach NBC 1997-99

Texas NBC 1980-82

Three Steps to Heaven NBC 1953-54

A Time for Us ABC 1964-66(N16)

A Time to Live NBC 1954

Today Is Ours NBC 1958

Way of the World NBC 1955

A Woman to Remember DuMont 1949

Woman with a Past CBS 1954

A World Apart ABC 1970-71

The World of Mr. Sweeney NBC 1954-55

These Are My Children NBC 1949

The Young Marrieds ABC 1964-66

[Mona Kane Croft]

Yes, Lemay was very good at writing for characters he later said he did not enjoy -- especially the middle-class characters.  For his first year on AW, the show was made up almost entirely of middle-class characters, and the writing was extremely compelling.  Of course Ada was working-class, and Steve was wealthy. Helen and Lenore had earlier been written as wealthy, but by the time Lemay arrived, Helen and Lenore's wealth had been mostly forgotten and they were also written more-or-less as middle-class. The show was SO GOOD.  Thanks for reminding us Lemay was writing for over a year before he introduced the uber-wealthy Iris (and later Mac).  

Although I missed most of the Carolyn Johnson storyline, I too have heard the ending was disappointing,  It is true the entire climax of the story took place off camera?  If that is true, I wish I could get inside Lemay's head and understand why he made that unusual choice.  

[Vee]

IIRC the daily or weekly recaps for Lemay's first days were on here some time ago and yes, the Caroline story allegedly ended totally off-camera - she got arrested offscreen or something. He was that keen to dump what he felt was a dog story. Looking at the state of some soaps today I can't blame him.

[Avatar610]

DAYS, definitely (Ted Corday died, and his wife Betty took over, getting William Bell away from ATWT to write for what turned out to be one of the best runs in daytime history).

But to me the ultimate example of 'thinking outside of the box' to save a new soap is Dark Shadows:  creator/producer Dan Curtis begged ABC to give him thirteen weeks to turn things around, and her did.  The show went from being a standard Gothic suspense drama a la Jane Eyre or Rebecca to gradually going into Gothic horror.  First the ghost of Josette was seen onscreen and then in December 1966 Diana Millay appeared as Roger's estranged wife Laura who was actually a Phoenix in human form, causing all kinds of mayhem for the next few months.  She was the first supernatural creature on the show, but the storyline came to an end in March as Diana's Laura went up in flames.  The ratings did go up, and as the 13 weeks ended  Curtis (based on a suggestion of his young daughter) and the writers created a even more dangerous creature: a vampire who just happened to be a long-lost family member from the 18th century and now came to Collinwood  claiming to be an English cousin- Barnabas Collins!  We all know what happened next......