Another World

[Khan]

I agree.  I really love your brief analysis of Rachel vs. Iris, @Soaplovers.  If only you had been there to write for the two in the early '90's, lol.

[j swift]

Speaking of mothers, by modern standards, do you think the character of Sylvie Kosloff was coded as Jewish?

Clearly, as a member of the tribe, I am not speaking derisively.  However, she was from New York, and she worked in the discount garment business which are two commonly coded devices for characters who were probably Jewish, but they never mentioned it on screen.  It would have been an interesting issue if Iris, who identified as an upper crust WASP, had a Jewish mother.  I recall much of the story was plot driven, rather than an opportunity for self-reflection on behalf of Iris.  But, when I read the synopsis, Sylvie's cultural origins were among my first reactions.

Edited November 18, 2023 by j swift

[Khan]

Didn't Harding Lemay basically say in his memoir that Sylvie was Jewish?  IIRC, P&G flinched at the idea until either they or Lemay looked over at Paul Rauch, who was himself Jewish.

[Mona Kane Croft]

Of course, Sylvie was Jewish.  Harding Lemay says in his book that he created Sylvie as a Jewish character, and he wanted to write Iris as anti-Semetic (ashamed of her Jewish biological mother).  But NBC or P&G balked at the idea, so he simply never mentioned the word Jew or Jewish in any of the scripts, but continued to write Sylvie exactly as he had planned.  Sylvie was Jewish, most certainly.    

The problem for TPTB wasn't Sylvie being Jewish.  The big problem was allowing Iris to be anti-Semetic. So all references to Judaism were dropped from the scripts, but Sylvie was written and played as Jewish, and Iris's disgust was obvious but unexplained -- especially during the early months after Sylvie's introduction.   

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mona Kane Croft

[j swift]

It has been over a decade since I read Eight Years in Another World (I checked my Amazon purchase and I bought it in 2011), so I didn't remember that detail - thanks @Mona Kane Croft & @Khan

Harding Lemay writing a Jewish mother for Iris in 1978-1979 was a bold move!  That's pretty inspired.  Initially, I thought the idea of exploring Iris's conception (and the later retcon) was unnecessary, but if the plan was based on giving Iris a mother who would destroy her sense of identity, I think it is genius. I cannot imagine a writer taking that kind of risk today. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by j swift

[Mona Kane Croft]

The later retcon (in 1989) was unnecessary, and frankly insulting to the long-term viewers.  We will probably never know if the retcon was written by Lemay (who had left-behind his long-term story projections), or by Donna Swajeski (who was credited as head-writer during the retcon explanation episodes).    

Yes, Lemay's idea was genius.  And yes, no writer today would take that kind of risk, because soap operas no longer take themselves seriously.  When was the last time you cried during a soap opera scene?  That's a serious question . . .

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mona Kane Croft

[j swift]

I certainly hope we're not uploading pirated content to this board.

@Errol or @Toups is posting an entire episode of another soap that is not the focus of this thread allowed?

Edited November 19, 2023 by j swift

[Contessa Donatella]

Okay, folks, sorry, wasn't thinking. It is gone now. Major blunder. Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa Maxima Mea Culpa. 

[j swift]

There's an interesting correlation to modern soaps and gay storylines.  One assumes that most actors playing long term characters don't wish to be written as homophobic, just as P&G 'protected' Iris by not writing her as directly anti-Semitic. Most soap parents go out of their way to demonstrate acceptance of their character's gay kids.  But, there's usually some family member or NPC who is delegated the homophobic role, and the moral of the story is all about learning acceptance.

But, giving Iris a Jewish mother is less about accepting diversity and more about what it meant to her identity.  Which is why I think it was so brilliant.

After the struggles that you've described with TPTB, it would seem illogical if Harding Lemay himself wrote the retcon.   And wasn't he opposed to retcons in general?

[Paul Raven]

How did the idea of Iris being adopted  come through at the time?

It seemed a bit out of the blue-one of those major plot points that had never been mentioned before eg I forgot to mention that i had been married before until my ex turns up.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Paul Raven

[Contessa Donatella]

My first introduction to crying over a soap scene was when my mother cried for 3 days over the death of Neil on Neil & Penny. (I think I got that right.)

My first was Felicia's husband Zane Lindquist (Patrick Tovatt). 

Ultimately I shed tears for the loss of the show. Lots brought me to tears in between. 

[j swift]

The origin is admittedly heavy-handed

IIRC when Amanda was born Iris overheard Mac say something to the effect of how pleased he was to witness the birth of his first biological child. I guess Sandy and Paulina didn't count because he didn't know about them at the time of their birth.  Iris confronts Mac, and he proceeds to tell her that she's adopted.

Which, of course, makes it especially odd a decade later when he's like, "oopsie, I didn't mean adopted, just that [Iris] was illegitimate and my late wife adopted her".  But, you know, these mistakes happen during childbirth.

Edited November 19, 2023 by j swift

[Contessa Donatella]

It was just so deliciously wickedly soapy! Knowing the way Iris was about "Daddy" try to imagine what would throw her for the biggest loop? Voila, not really Daddy's daughter! 

[Mona Kane Croft]

I watched the "Amanda is born, and Iris is adopted" episode live, and it did certainly come "out of the blue," with no foreshadowing whatsoever.  At the time, it did seem a bit too plot-driven for Another World, and Lemay's style of nearly plotless writing.   But I think the fans accepted it because we were starving for any kind of real storyline. Just as we had accepted the Sven storyline a few months earlier. "Please give us a real plot, Mr Lemay -- please . . pretty please."  so he finally gave it to us, and we accepted it.  

Within a few weeks , viewers saw how well crafted this new plot was coming along, and suddenly we we were completely engaged.  Who was Iris's real mother? And would Iris ever find her??

[Errol]

The uploading of copywritten material is not allowed for obvious reasons.