3 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Yes, the locale officially switched to Illinois in the early-1980s.  But I was watching daily during the entire Lemay era, and I'm fairly confident Bay City was never referenced as being in Michigan in any of Lemay's scripts. Agreed, Lemay did care about AW's past -- and used the past as subtext for many characters.  But it is unfortunate he chose never to mention (or perhaps was unaware of) the Michigan connection.  So by not mentioning it, this may be when that connection was lost for TPTB.   

That's a good point: if a show's state is not mentioned for many years, it's easier for the revolving door of never-ending newbies in charge to miss out on or get confused about previously-established facts.

3 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

the revolving door of never-ending newbies in charge

And that revolving door has led to the cancellation of so many daytime dramas since the early-1980s.   Very sad.   

I'm almost positive that it was changed in the 80s.

5 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

And that revolving door has led to the cancellation of so many daytime dramas since the early-1980s.   Very sad.   

What absolutely boggles my mind about daytime TV is that no matter how many times weak/incompetent producers and writers fail in the soap world, they keep getting hired by other serial to wreak the exact same type of damage. (Or worse.)

It's freaking unreal.😡

3 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I'm almost positive that it was changed in the 80s.

Yes, it was.  A couple of years ago, someone posted the scene from 1981 or '82 in which "Bay City, Illinois" was mentioned for the first time.  And I also remember watching the show on NBC in real-time back then, seeing that scene, and asking myself, WTF??!!   Bay City is now in Illinois??  

3 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Yes, it was.  A couple of years ago, someone posted the scene from 1981 or '82 in which "Bay City, Illinois" was mentioned for the first time.  And I also remember watching the show on NBC in real-time back then, seeing that scene, and asking myself, WTF??!!   Bay City is now in Illinois??  

An unfortunately common refrain!

5 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

What absolutely boggles my mind about daytime TV is that no matter how many times weak/incompetent producers and writers fail in the soap world, they keep getting hired by other serial to wreak the exact same type of damage. (Or worse.)

It's freaking unreal.😡

Agreed. Is there any other entertainment genre (past or present) where anything similar has occurred time after time?  Primetime dramas? Comedy? Westerns? Horror?  Sci-Fi? Variety shows? Radio?  

Why is daytime drama plagued by this idiocy, while other entertainment genres seem to have avoided it??

3 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Agreed. Is there any other entertainment genre (past or present) where anything similar has occurred time after time?  Primetime dramas? Comedy? Westerns? Horror?  Sci-Fi? Variety shows? Radio?  

Why is daytime drama plagued by this idiocy, while other entertainment genres seem to have avoided it??

I've seen writers producing poor scripts for primetime TV and movies before, but not to the same overwhelming degree as in daytime TV. They generally don't get hired by everyone else under the sun once their initial work bombs big-time.

On soaps, even the worst of the worst stay in the same positions for YEARS.

8 hours ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Agreed. Is there any other entertainment genre (past or present) where anything similar has occurred time after time?  Primetime dramas? Comedy? Westerns? Horror?  Sci-Fi? Variety shows? Radio?  

Why is daytime drama plagued by this idiocy, while other entertainment genres seem to have avoided it??

I recall someone suggesting that football coaches have the same kind of situation where people who are clearly NOT good at the job get rehired over & over. I don't begin to know enough about that sport to evaluate this as a truth or not. But, I do hate how much damage it has accounted for in soaps.

1 hour ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I recall someone suggesting that football coaches have the same kind of situation where people who are clearly NOT good at the job get rehired over & over. I don't begin to know enough about that sport to evaluate this as a truth or not. But, I do hate how much damage it has accounted for in soaps.

That'a an interesting comparison, and might be a parallel.  But i also know too little about sports  to really comment on it's accuracy.  It might have something to do with a "closed" system, and the consuming nature of producing or writing a daytime drama and coaching.  Both in football and daytime, those factors make it hard for new talent to break into the system.  And even a very talented coach or daytime writer or executive producer can only do one team (or one show) at a time, limiting that person's impact on the entire system.

Edited June 5Jun 5 by Tisy-Lish

1 hour ago, Tisy-Lish said:

That'a an interesting comparison, and might be a parallel.  But i also know too little about sports  to really comment on it's accuracy.  It might have something to do with a "closed" system, and the consuming nature of producing or writing a daytime drama and coaching.  Both in football and daytime, those factors make it hard for new talent to break into the system.  And even a very talented coach or daytime writer or executive producer can only do one team (or one show) at a time, limiting that person's impact on the entire system.

Excellent explication. That doing it in these two examples, is not like doing it in other similar genres or franchises, so one could easily postulate that the people who hire do not generally consider "newbies" but instead insist upon experienced people, which leads to rehiring rather than hiring from "outside" which is what your closed system is all about. 

When you think about it how many people can you name who did soaps who came from outside? I can only think of 3 HWs : Pete Lemay, Hogan Sheffer & Michael Malone.

For EPs only 2: Wendy Riche & Linda Gottlieb

 

 

Edited June 5Jun 5 by Contessa Donatella

10 hours ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Agreed. Is there any other entertainment genre (past or present) where anything similar has occurred time after time?  Primetime dramas? Comedy? Westerns? Horror?  Sci-Fi? Variety shows? Radio?  

Why is daytime drama plagued by this idiocy, while other entertainment genres seem to have avoided it??

I think it's become more common in other genres in recent decades, as the industry as a whole has collapsed - these are complaints that have been made about creative talents in the MCU, Star Wars, Doctor Who, etc. 

The MCU is in that place now as they burnt so much goodwill that even when their new movie got strong reviews, the audience didn't show up - similar to how AW got some praise for their 89-93 material compared to some of the barren years beforehand, but viewers just weren't coming back. 

(I know they did return, somewhat, in the JFP run, but not enough to make up for the big budget she used)

4 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Excellent explication. That doing it in these two examples, is not like doing it in other similar genres or franchises, so one could easily postulate that the people who hire do not generally consider "newbies" but instead insist upon experienced people, which leads to rehiring rather than hiring from "outside" which is what your closed system is all about. 

When you think about it how many people can you name who did soaps who came from outside? I can only think of 3 HWs : Pete Lemay, Hogan Sheffer & Michael Malone.

For EPs only 2: Wendy Riche & Linda Gottlieb

 

 

Plus we are never going to have a Shonda Rhimes, a Dick Wolf, or a Chuck Lorre of daytime -- a single brilliant person who could come in and change the genre -- because Shonda, Dick, or Chuck would only be able to work on one soap opera at a time, not three or four at the same time as they do in primetime.  As long as TPTB insist on the 60-minute format, we will never have another super influential individual like Phillips, Nixon, or Bell.  They simply would never have time to do more than one soap opera at a time and that would stifle their influence overall.

7 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I think it's become more common in other genres in recent decades, as the industry as a whole has collapsed - these are complaints that have been made about creative talents in the MCU, Star Wars, Doctor Who, etc. 

The MCU is in that place now as they burnt so much goodwill that even when their new movie got strong reviews, the audience didn't show up - similar to how AW got some praise for their 89-93 material compared to some of the barren years beforehand, but viewers just weren't coming back. 

(I know they did return, somewhat, in the JFP run, but not enough to make up for the big budget she used)

Thanks. So maybe this is happening to some degree in other entertainment genres.  I don't keep up with the particular franchises you mentioned, so I was unaware.  I appreciate your perspective.

18 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Plus we are never going to have a Shonda Rhimes, a Dick Wolf, or a Chuck Lorre of daytime -- a single brilliant person who could come in and change the genre -- because Shonda, Dick, or Chuck would only be able to work on one soap opera at a time, not three or four at the same time as they do in primetime.  As long as TPTB insist on the 60-minute format, we will never have another super influential individual like Phillips, Nixon, or Bell.  They simply would never have time to do more than one soap opera at a time and that would stifle their influence overall.

Very true & also at least in the case of stand-out HWs, it is fraught with exhaustion & burnout.

28 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Thanks. So maybe this is happening to some degree in other entertainment genres.  I don't keep up with the particular franchises you mentioned, so I was unaware.  I appreciate your perspective.

Not to ramble too far off topic but it happens a lot with comics too, especially only wanting to keep cheap talent around and pushing out creative voices. There are some patches where creatives can go to start their own worlds...wish that was true with soaps, but who knows, maybe it can happen someday. I never thought we'd get a new soap this year.