The Politics Thread

[GoldenDogs]

Wow... I couldn't have said it all better myself. I was interested in some of your points... because portable buildings, overcrowding, etc. has been happening in our schools here for over 20 years as a result of this issue. At first, only people in border states experienced this problem. I think it is safe to say now that others are finally getting a piece of the action. It isn't pleasant. Whether educators in California want to admit it or not (I briefly discussed money issues for schools with UCLAN in this thread), but a good deal of budgetary education issues in California have to do with illegal aliens. This is why I bristle at the thought of throwing more money to the schools... I believe some in education rely heavily on taxpayer dollars for the classroom, asking for more in some backwards attempt to solve the problem of educating illegal immigrant children. Bond issues are staple of elections here, with more money requested by school districts... and they often get it, resulting in much higher taxes in specific neighborhoods (of course, whether you have an elementary school-age child attending a district school or not). This is part of the issue of higher taxes that some Dems don't get... We get slammed from all sides. But I'm now moving off-topic...

This issue is one reason why I was upset with George W. Bush, and why my support of John McCain was tepid at best. No candidate addressed this issue in an honest way... and so far, Democrats lean heavily to blanket amnesty, which would force us to openly absorb the problems we already have -- and common sense states that if you so much as mention the possibility of amnesty, more will rush in to make it under the gun. It happened during the Reagan era and it will happen again.

I'm for productive immigrants melding into the American fabric... proper legal channels, all that. Those who crowd the line or don't even bother to get IN line -- no sympathy at all. I'm sorry their home country is a shithole... it should be fixed. President Obama should be helping third-world country leaders getting their houses in order rather than slapping them high fives and jokie-joking around with them.

[UCLAN]

Well are you ready for this? I absolutely, totally agree with everything both of you posted. Illegal immigration is a huge problem in Ca. It is a result of over 30 years of turning a blind eye to the problem. I believe that if appropriate action had been taken 35 or 40 years ago (fining employers who hired illegals) the problem would not be as cumbersome as it is today. This massive problem has totally changed the quality of life especially here in So. Cal. Believe it or not this is an area where I often feel that I discriminate, but it is born out of a frustration for a lack of a solution. Education is hit the hardest, overcrowded schools, language barriers, and to top it off, standardized testing issues. I somewhat agree with amnesty is certain situations, but this is a major problem that truly needs to be addressed.

[UCLAN]

Can we get our house in order first? I have always had concerns with our country's need to be the great benefactor to the world. I believe in extending a hand, but there is so much here in this country that needs to be attended to. Jobs, homelessness, healthcare, education. If we're not careful, we could become a "[!@#$%^&*]-hole".

[SteveFrame]

Wow I have to give that one a high five.

There are so many things that need attention here. We do need to help pull the world up and give them a helping hand, but for far too long America's problems have been ignored.

I think I have mentioned this before but I'll site it again just in case I haven't. But I was totally shocked a few years ago to go to Nicaraugua on a medical field trip where I worked with a medical group. We brought aid to an area that just didn't have any medical care at all. I worked in the pharmacy area counting pills all week and worked the line with another guy to pass out worm medicine to every individual that came through. We had to give each one of the infants theirs which was interesting.

I got to tour the villages and some of the homes were just awful. I came back totally shocked at how these people lived and thanked God that we have it so good in America.

A few years later I went with the same group into the mountains of East Tennessee, Virginia, North Carolina and Kentucky. Boy was I surprised. The same situations that we saw in Nicaraugua existed right here inside the borders of America. The illiteracy was astounding. People living in run down houses with no floors. Very little food to eat. No medical care for miles and miles and miles. It was as if this wasn't America or at all. Or at least it was an area that time had forgotten. I mean this was not on the widespread level that we saw in Nicaraugua, but here were people - our own people - that seemed so forgotten right here in our own backyard.

I've seen it both here and there. As bad as I feel for those in foreign countries I feel even worse for those right here. We have enough here in the States that if we all shared, if we reached out, if our Government just reached out, these people would not be in this dire need.

And I just have a hard time justifying in my mind taking money and sending it to a 3rd world country to help their poor when we have our own citizens right here living on the streets, living in poverty, and we are doing nothing to help them.

[GoldenDogs]

Could BECOME? Some would argue we're already there. Anyway, you're preaching to the choir, brother. I'm far more radical than you, though. I have had enough of ALL American Presidents shoveling cash around the world to fix problems that are beyond our ability to fix. And I totally agree... fix it all here first.

[GoldenDogs]

Okay, Steve... let's you, me, and UCLAN start our own third political party to address the issues we care about that NOBODY is addressing today. I nominate UCLAN as President, you as VP... I'll be some mid-level staffer or something. I'll be the guy who reads letters from the public. Or something.

[SteveFrame]

Just as long as I get to be the one that gets the special oral attention Clinton got when he was in the Oval Office.

[GoldenDogs]

Mostly for Greg, but for everyone to comment on please...

D.C. Council member Marion Barry (Democrat-Ward 8), the only council member to vote against the bill today to legalize same-sex marriages performed elsewhere, predicted today there could be a “civil war” in the District if the Council decides to take up a broader gay marriage bill later this year.

“All hell is going to break lose,” Barry said while speaking to reporters. “We may have a civil war. The black community is just adamant against this.”…

Although he has been a longtime supporter of gay rights, Barry said he voted against the bill to satisfy his constituents in Southeast Washington.

“What you’ve got to understand is 98 percent of my constituents are black and we don’t have but a handful of openly gay residents,” Barry said. “Secondly, at least 70 percent of those who express themselves to me about this are opposed to anything dealing with this issue. The ministers think it is a sin, and I have to be sensitive to that.”

[SteveFrame]

This keeps coming up all the time in many cities where the African American community have been some of the largest in opposition to Gay Marriage.

I know on several boards I have gone too it has sparked many conversations about one minority denying equal rights to another minority.

Of course when you look at the idea of "down low" first coming out of the gay community or at least from my understanding that is where the title first came from, you can understand.

It is not that there are not gay men who are black - it is just that for a black man my understanding is - it is just more of a social issue for them.

I know SVU did an episode on it a few years back where one of the guys on the down low was a famous black football player. He or Finn talked about how black men - even more than white men - are pushed into this idea of being a real man and being gay is not that. He is supposed to marry and better himself and his family.

So many black men who are gay marry and end up on the "down low" where they don't even use condoms when they have sex because buying condoms to use is admitting what you are going to do.

So I can understand where even for a black man it is harder even for him to stand up for gay marriage and I imagine some of them are even part of these who say they are against it.

[GoldenDogs]

Hawaii Lawmakers Pass Bill to Create 'Islam Day'

Hawaii's state Senate overwhelmingly approved a bill Wednesday to celebrate "Islam Day" -- over the objections of a few lawmakers who said they didn't want to honor a religion connected to Sept. 11, 2001.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/06...eate-islam-day/

What the HELL? Somebody remind me...

...what country as I living in?

[SteveFrame]

That really shocks me and it is not so much the 9/11 thing but the Democrats seem to be wanting to move away from being tied to Religion of any kind but yet here you have a State Senate with only 2 Republicans and they choose to name a day to honor one particular religion.

I am glad to see the one Democrat remain true and vote against it due to separation of church/state.

I would love to know more about this. Was it a thing of trying to be politically correct that made them want to do this? Or what did they hope to gain from this?

Are they going to give equal opportunity to other religions now. Will there be a Catholic Day? A Baptist Day?

And of course we can't forget the Atheists day and the Agnostics Day.

This is really weird and totally out of left field.

Just when you think politicians can't surprise you anymore they turn around and do something like this.

[GoldenDogs]

This is one of Obama's more scary policy moves...

President Obama's efforts to curb the spread of nuclear weapons threaten to expose and derail a 40-year-old secret U.S. agreement to shield Israel's nuclear weapons from international scrutiny, former and current U.S. and Israeli officials and nuclear specialists say.

The issue will likely come to a head when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu meets with Mr. Obama on May 18 in Washington. Mr. Netanyahu is expected to seek assurances from Mr. Obama that he will uphold the U.S. commitment and will not trade Israeli nuclear concessions for Iranian ones.

Assistant Secretary of State Rose Gottemoeller, speaking Tuesday at a U.N. meeting on the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), said Israel should join the treaty, which would require Israel to declare and relinquish its nuclear arsenal.

"Universal adherence to the NPT itself, including by India, Israel, Pakistan and North Korea, ... remains a fundamental objective of the United States," Ms. Gottemoeller told the meeting, according to Reuters.

So, let's see... Mr. Obama will demand Israel stand down and give up their nukes... Mr. Obama expects ISRAEL to follow the rules. However, Iran has yet to follow rules. My question is, wouldn't this leave Israel vulnerable to hostile states surrounding them? It reminds me of the old "Who wants to volunteer?" act... and everyone steps backward, leaving an unwitting and unwilling party standing out from the rest.

This can't happen. If Obama were to push this issue with Netanyahu, I'm sure he would be told to "[!@#$%^&*] off" in the nicest possible terms. But that Obama would even ask... Ummm... whose SIDE IS HE ON???

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/0...se-nukes/print/ for the straight dope.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/06/obam...-give-up-nukes/ for right-leaning commentary.

[Roman]

Same question that was asked of GWB and "DICK" Cheney for 8 years. Horrible we never got an answer.

Oh, sorry. Yes we did. Bush was an idiot who didn't KNOW whose side he was on, and Cheney was too busy torturing people.

Sorry.

[Greg's GL]

Back at cha, Brian. I will send you an email one of these days, I promise! <<hugs ya back>>

You could have posted this without the jab to Obama. Regardless, I think we're of the same mind on the immigration issue. A blanket declaration of amnesty is perhaps too much. But there are some illegal immigrants that are productive members of society - at least here in Florida. And alot of them do jobs that no one else will do. If they were all to disappear with a blanket deportation, our local economy would suffer tremendously. This is a toughie.

I agree with all of you on this issue. But Brian, are you willing to allow for more spending to fix some of these problems in our own backyard? President Obama is proposing some additional domestic spending initiatives, and some of the stimulus money to the states might improve the problems. However, when there are Republican Govenors refusing stimulus cash and general reluctance from Republicans on more spending, how do you propose we fix the problems?

There has been quite an explosion of states allowing gay marriage and today there's word that Vermont and Maine are looking at the issue. When it comes to Marion Barry's statements, however, I have to say that I don't have a problem with it. His job is to represent his constituents. If they are against it, then he voted correctly.

If I were in public office, I would have done the same thing and we all know how I feel about the issue. Shocked? I hope not. For a public servant's mandate is the will of those that put him in office. Not his own agenda.

I think it's quite clear he's on Israel's "side". All the Assistant SOS said was the goal of the US was UNIVERSAL participation in the non-proliferation treaty. He also mentioned India, North Korea and Pakistan as well, didn't he? Israel was not singled out in the least.

If this comes to fruition in the UN, I have a hard time believing that they would impose this on Israel without first having the other countries join as well. The Washington Times notoriously has a conservative bent. I know. I lived there for 4 years. If this ever happens (I doubt it will), I will have a hard time supporting foreign policy as put forth by this administration. You have my word.

Regarding "Islam Day". I believe in the separation of church and state. The separation of ALL churches from state affairs. The 9/11 - News Flash. Not all Islamists believe in the destruction of the United States. Those that perpetrated that crime against us were radicals. Much like Christianity has radicals and every other religion. The entire faith can not be condemned because of their actions.

The lawmakers that voted for this day are smokin' crack IMHO.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Greg's GL

[Greg's GL]

I think President Obama is making some positive steps regarding the budget. Of course, the right is critical of it already. I wonder, where was all this fiscal responsibility when they were in control?

Obama wants to trim $17B from budget

And this article I found interesting. Seems some of my ilk are getting a little impatient about the President moving on issues of importance to the LGBT community. It's been what, 5 months?!?!?! Give him a chance, people!

Obama pressed to engage on gay issues

Thoughts?