Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Forever8]

Thanks so much @DRW50it never hurts to see more Loving online. 

[Sapounopera]

Thank you so much @DRW50! The many faces of Loving... a brand new show every other year. I find Trucker and Trisha so boring, all this staring... 
Celeste Holm is such an interesting Isabelle. Dabney was Alice Horton with money, Barry was Phoebe 2.0 and Holm reminds me of early Stephanie Forrester. 

All episodes feature several random characters. I don't remember other soaps doing this.

[Joseph]

and i take by it you really like her, interesting she's the one Gwyn i never found a vid of, in Either Italian or English

[Joseph]

Please register in order to view this content

Do W3 Have access to this scene in English??? It's a Pretty Hilarious Catfight

[Joseph]

YES! YES! YES!!!

Please register in order to view this content

 

[DRW50]

Glad they avoided the cliche fainting reaction. Thanks, @Joseph

Watching those two July 1993 episodes, the main thing I noticed was how high-energy the show was compared to the 1991 episodes. Not always in a good way (Gwyn behaved so erratically that her mental breakdown suddenly made much more sense - we even got a Jeremy-style death for Buck [nearly] at her unintentional hands), but certainly in a more memorable way. 

The Shana and Leo material felt tryhard (mainly the scene of Shana practically coming to an Elvis movie), but the actors did their best and did have nice chemistry together. 

The material with Ava and Jeremy and Faison (and Shirley Stoler!) was very horned up. What got me most was the extra details of having so many bit players pawing at each other, the guy who wanted to have sex with his girlfriend in a coffin, etc. The train sequences all felt like something from softcore porn. 

I don't think I've ever seen Ava, or any woman on Loving, treated in such a "male gaze" way as she was in this episode, especially the various shots of her in the tight lingerie. If this was when Bob Guza was a headwriter, I guess that makes sense, but it's jarring.

Jean le Clerc just never clicks on the show, and I'm still not sure why they spent so much time trying him with Lisa Peluso.

@Veewill remember better than I do, but I think Andres Hove was unhappy about the Faison material in these crossover episodes, as he and Tony Geary were so high on their own supply about the material Faison was meant to get during his 1999/2000 GH return (IIRC he later went on to badmouth THAT as well, which was, like everything else on GH by that point that did not involve Sarah Brown, dull as hell).

Edited November 17, 2022 by DRW50

[Vee]

I don't keep tabs on Anders Hove press, tbh. It wouldn't surprise me at all, especially the silly Felicia thing in the latter period which felt so shoehorned. The show had a lot of issues in '99/2000 but it was still miles and miles ahead of today and its daily writing team was second to none and could sell almost (almost!!) anything. Not Luke/Felicia and Faison's fascination with her, though.

I always found Jean LeClerc very dashing, hot and charming to watch on LOV, but I agree Jeremy does feel very shoehorned into the show when revisiting the material in more recent years.

I remember some promos - I don't know if they were from '93 or '94 - when they explicitly tried to sell Ava as an Erica Kane analog in Jeremy's life, his new Erica. Ava was of course created as another Erica avatar by Nixon, like many of her heroines/antiheroines, but this was much more on the nose and they were mentioning/showing Erica outright IIRC. I thought that was Guza's team, but I may be wrong.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Vee

[Soaplovers]

I think the Erica comparison worked better when Roya was playing Ava.. since she had the same essence/mannerism as Erica.  However, Lisa Puleso's Ava was not anything like Erica at all... she seemed more like a modern day Scarlett O'hara then an Erica Kane clone.

[Sapounopera]

Patty Lutz was more like Nola Reardon.

Roya was Erica 2.0.

Lisa was more like Tina Lord. 

[Joseph]

I guess the Best Way To Compare Ava To Erica Would be getting An English copy Of These Scenes:

Please register in order to view this content

And Compare Them To When Erica Visited Mona in the Hospital after a surgery in 1992, Scenes Lucci actually submitted for the Emmys, Want a more Perfect situation to Compare them?

Edited November 19, 2022 by Joseph

[dc11786]

I love late 1991. I think the quieter show that was more about characters relationships and the fall out was very engaging. By comparison, I think the structure to the plots in 1993 may have been stronger, but there were often tonal issues that I struggled with. For example, Shana and Leo were an intersting couple. The Mason-Julia baby contract redux was intriguing as was Ava as the third wheel, but so much of the day to day material was hammy. There were a lot of dream sequences, which, while funny at times, took away some of the dramatic weight of the story. Taggert might have had a thing about Elvis. She was also at the helm when Todd Jones as going to be an Elvis serial killer.

I don't like the train sequences. Before I read your comments, I hadn't been able to put my finger on why. Guza and Taggert attempted to make "Loving" sexier, but at times it was just sleazier. 

I think Jean LeClerc and Lisa Peluso have chemistry, but Jeremy and Ava don't work. I feel like Jean LeClerc was originally intended to be in a quad with Stacey, Trisha, and Trucker, but Noelle Beck's decision to depart the show jettisoned those plans. Jeremy's best pairing was Gwyn, but it was such a B-story at best. 

Ava evolves a lot over the different performers and writers. Ryan Munisteri played Ava as almost a Delia Reid type where she could be very nasty and lash out, while also being sympathetic at the same time. Walsh saw Ava as a more desperate, lonely character who was afraid of being alone after Paul left her so she immediately got into a relationship with Leo even though there wasn't much story to tell between them. Taggert and Guza made Ava a screwball schemer as if she was being played by Lucille Ball. Nixon's Ava felt more grounded. Her Ava just wanted to live a peaceful life without all the schemes and the complications that came from the way she was and the way things would be if she returned to Alex. I am curious where Ava would have gone if Nixon had stayed and Ava took control of AE stock based on her grandfather's role in the development of Lady Alden Soap. 

 

[danfling]

Excuse me for forgetting this name, but what was the name of the actress who played the daughter of John Gabrielle on Loving?  I also forgot the name of the character.

[Sapounopera]

Kathleen Fisk portrayed Kelly Conway.

[danfling]

Actress Teri Keane has passed away.  She created the role of Rose Donovan on Loving.  She was later replaced in the role by Dorothy Stinnette.

[Count Henri]

R.I.P.