I think you know what will happen very well. Your diagrams show it, don't they?

Yours show it better :-).

But I believe in predictability, not inevitability. In other words, extrapolating from the trends we and others have plotted, the demise is coming.

That does not rule out a "shock to the system" that could change the trajectory--although I acknowledge this is more of "hope" speaking than plausible future reality.

For example, things Sam Ford talked about in his thesis. Unfortunately for him and all of us, his vision is impossible to execute. From many, many problems his suggestions have, one arises clearly: investments. You need money to change things, yet no one in their sane mind would put money into a ship that will hit rock bottom very soon.

I did read that...but it seems it is time for me to reread his thesis :-).

Don't you also agree with a constatation that quality storytelling does not equal ratings?

Absolutely, absolutely, quality storytelling does not equal rating.

HOWEVER, all other things being equal, two shows that are equivalent in every way...but one has stories and characters that engage, challenge, amuse, make sense... And the other makes you feel like an idiot when watching. In that scenario, I believe that the better storytelling will show better protection against decline.

There was a time in the last few years where the rate of decline in Y&R was marginally slower than that of other shows. While causation for that was probably complex, I suspect that at least SOME of the reason for it was better storytelling (and better investment in veterans, production values, etc.).

I think Josh Griffith might actually be more responsible for the show's current standing that Maria is. They both have blame, but Griffith is originally a soap writer, so a lot of the stuff on the show might be his ideas. He was also there for a while before Maria was ever brought on. Add to that Maria's love of fashion and art (which is beyond evident), and you've got the show the way it is. Griffith seems to be the one who loves Gloria and that whole nonsense quad of Sharon/Jack/Phyllis/Nick.

A good EP is supposed to balance out the weaknesses of the HW, but Griffith lacks as much vision for the show as Maria does. Y&R's been slowly healing and transitioning, but that's not enough. We need someone who truly gets the show and can actually plot BIG stories.

I say fire Griffith and Maria Bell and bring in some people who actually have a fair amount of experience Executive Producing and Head Writing. Y&R is being overrun by amateur management.

Ratings might still not rise, but at least we can say they tried to improve the quality of the show.

Here's that Y&R by seasons:

Y&R's major ratings drop, IMHO, stems from all the damage that LML did. I hoenstly think Y&R has the smallest online fans. thjey dont know about HW chnages and what not, even if they did nothing much changed. so they got fed up and quit.

i dont blame MAB at all.

I often agree with you JP, but not really here.

Because the ratings WENT UP for the first part of LML's era (a few decimal points). The precipitous drop has really been in the last month or so...after MAB's stories kicked in, and after a lot of us started saying "this is boring" and "some of the inconsistencies of the LML era have returned".

My guess is that we have joint causation: MAB is not a strong headwriter. (Her strength is immersion in the Bell signature style, but that alone can't save the soap). AND, she is saddled with the excellent-dialogue-but-lousy-plotting instincts of LML's 18 writers (I realize I exaggerate). What both MAB and her writers lack is the ability to spin a complex long-arc tale that makes sense (and that is exciting).

I really think the poor ratings of the last few weeks owe themselves to overdose of Jeffrey Bardwell (can he DIE soon? I don't think the problem is Gloria, I think it is Jeff), and the horrible boredom of a bunch of stories without obvious trajectory. These are, sadly, the fault of the current headwriter. LML had a better sense of balance (in the sense of driving multiple stories), actually, that MAB.

Here's that Y&R by seasons:

I modified Sylph's graph to extrapolate what has happened this season under MAB.

Gasp-inducing:

It is incredulous that anyone can blame LML for Y&R's tumble in the ratings. Other than a few dips, Y&R's ratings (HH and demos) were more or less constant. Y&R's ratings didn't even drop so sharply under the scabs who were filling in LML's stories for a couple months. This decline is solely on MAB and Griffin. This is their handiwork. Why on earth would they think that Victor and Sabrina strolling through the gallery of MAB's pet artist would be interesting to women living in the Midwest and South where most of the audience lives? Ridiculous. Where is the drama on Y&R? There is only poor storytellng.

Those graphs are heartbreaking.

I'm leaving the figure in, because it really tells the story.

That steep current descent is unprecedented in recent history. The long haul picture Sylph showed before suggests that there have been other periods of steep decline. But in recent history, these week-by-week falls are steeper than anything...and suggest the show may not rebound.

Said differently, Y&R has joined the pack in terms of backstage turmoil. Soon, I'm guessing it will join the pack in terms of disrespect of veterans. (Some might claim the losses of Eileen Davidson, Jerry Douglas and Victoria Rowell all already showed that). Now, this implies the inevitable harvest of bad management will follow: Y&R will join the pack in terms of viewer loyalty too.

Of course, I blame it all on Drew F*cking Carey :-). We need Bob Barker back, stat, to rescue CBS daytime.

Lynn Latham, including co-HW

It is incredulous that anyone can blame LML for Y&R's tumble in the ratings. Other than a few dips, Y&R's ratings (HH and demos) were more or less constant. Y&R's ratings didn't even drop so sharply under the scabs who were filling in LML's stories for a couple months. This decline is solely on MAB and Griffin. This is their handiwork. Why on earth would they think that Victor and Sabrina strolling through the gallery of MAB's pet artist would be interesting to women living in the Midwest and South where most of the audience lives? Ridiculous. Where is the drama on Y&R? There is only poor storytellng.

Sadly, I agree with you. Every word.

After seeing this massive falls, I don't see how anyone could defend Maria Bell and Josh Griffith keeping their jobs....

Lynn Latham, including co-HW

Actually that last graph is wrong. It says it goes to 5/08, but it really seems to end at 12/07.

Actually that last graph is wrong. It says it goes to 5/08, but it really seems to end at 12/07.

The title is wrong, forgot to change it! It just shows Lynn's tenure, including the period Feb.-Dec. when she was co-HW.

Edited May 30, 200817 yr by Sylph

I often agree with you JP, but not really here.

Because the ratings WENT UP for the first part of LML's era (a few decimal points). The precipitous drop has really been in the last month or so...after MAB's stories kicked in, and after a lot of us started saying "this is boring" and "some of the inconsistencies of the LML era have returned".

My guess is that we have joint causation: MAB is not a strong headwriter. (Her strength is immersion in the Bell signature style, but that alone can't save the soap). AND, she is saddled with the excellent-dialogue-but-lousy-plotting instincts of LML's 18 writers (I realize I exaggerate). What both MAB and her writers lack is the ability to spin a complex long-arc tale that makes sense (and that is exciting).

I really think the poor ratings of the last few weeks owe themselves to overdose of Jeffrey Bardwell (can he DIE soon? I don't think the problem is Gloria, I think it is Jeff), and the horrible boredom of a bunch of stories without obvious trajectory. These are, sadly, the fault of the current headwriter. LML had a better sense of balance (in the sense of driving multiple stories), actually, that MAB.

Obviously whats airing now has peole not tuning in, but is it what actually caused them to tune out? or was it years of lackluster story?

i think its like a movie franchise. say part 1 comes out. it does well and is good, then 2 comes out, obviously people r going to see it baised on the first - so it does well. but this one sucks. that means the 3rd one will perfomr bad even if it is better.

i dont think maria is blameless, but i dont think shes the one where the blame goes.

After seeing this massive falls, I don't see how anyone could defend Maria Bell and Josh Griffith keeping their jobs....

because with every change things get worse.

my above post was 2 posts that somehow magically combined.

no lie.

its odd.

omg. now my 3rd post about how said 2 posts vombines just joined them. this is soo odd.