This is the Presidential Campaign Thread.

Barack Obama Vs. John McCain.

Edited November 6, 200817 yr by Toups

IA. I believe Palin was far more successful in reaching out to the undecideds..That is what I would consider "winning"..I think the polls will reflect that..(sorry I am a poll junkie).

Really, I thought Palin was way more successful at reaching out to doubters within her own party. I don't think she had an effect either way on the undecideds.imo

Speaking of non-American views...Here is an official from the Vatican's take on Democrats..

Vatican official attacks U.S. Democrats as “party of death”

Burke, who was named prefect of the Vatican’s Supreme Court of the Apostolic Signature in June, told the Italian Catholic newspaper Avvenire that the U.S. Democratic Party risked “transforming itself definitively into a party of death for its decisions on bioethical issues.” He then attacked two of the party’s most high profile Catholics — vice presidential candidate Joe Biden and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — for misrepresenting Church teaching on abortion.

Really, I thought Palin was way more successful at reaching out to doubters within her own party. I don't think she had an effect either way on the undecideds.imo

After the debate Fox News had a large room full of undecideds...Most of them raised their hands for Palin..One of the was an African-American lady.. She said that Palin swayed her towards McCain.

Edited October 3, 200817 yr by Casey008

After the debate Fox News had a large room full of undecideds...Most of them raised their hands for Palin..One of the was an African-American lady.. She said that Palin swayed her towards McCain.

I was talking about overall, not just a room full of people. What was the point of mentioning the African American lady?

This is my take on the VP debate last night.

First of all, the image of Palin was so bad, that the debate had turned into a debate about HER, not the issues. Hence, by avoiding any obviously idiotic statements like "You can see Russia from Alaska", she may have "won".

However, to people that are more than casual observers of politics (as it appears most of us on this thread are), her statement of having an even more powerful role for VP than Cheney is offensive. And scary. How any McCain supporter can defend her position on that issue should try to explain themselves, IMO.

When this debate gets boiled down, it is true that Palin did not answer the questions posed to her. She stuck to her talking points and did a good job redirecting the discussion back to them. I can't believe that anyone can actually say they know more about Palin's policies or knowledge of issues after this performance. If so, what are they? What did she specifically say in this debate to educate voters on her qualifications and policies?

I'm still waiting on a response to a question I asked in this thread after one of her interviews with Couric last week. When she stated Biden was the experienced candidate and she was the "new energy, new ideas" person. I still wonder, after her selection as VP, what specific "new idea" did Palin bring to the ticket? What is the basis for her making that statement in the first place? Anyone?

I will give the RNC this. They are very good at painting their candidates as an everyday Joe Schmoe or "Jane Six-pack" (ugh) that Americans can supposedly identify with. They did it in 2000 and 2004 with GWB and now they are going back through their playbook and using it for Palin. The "aww shucks" behavior does nothing for me. It dumbs down the office of the President. It dumbs down Americans. The Repubs are only using this tactic because they know when the election is about the issues, they will loose.

Did Palin come across as likable? Sure. Did she impress me at all? Nope. It seemed to me like she was playing a character and hiding her true identity.

And I believe this debate will have no impact on the Presidential race. There are more important issues - like the vote in the House today on the bailout - and the upcoming Presidential debate that will wipe this event off the minds of voters. Evidently, there are McCain supporters that are very excited about the possibility that the debate will help McCain in the polls; and I say, if this is all they are clinging to in order to help his poll numbers, they should be worried about their candidate.

By the way, McCain is pulling out of Michigan. Hmmmm. I wonder if he'll reconsider based on Palin's "performance" last night? Yeah, right.

Edited October 3, 200817 yr by Greg's GL

I hate it when people pronounce Iraq [ahy-raq]...

Edited October 3, 200817 yr by Sylph

Speaking of non-American views...Here is an official from the Vatican's take on Democrats..

Vatican official attacks U.S. Democrats as “party of death”

I wonder how the Vatican feels about the Death Penalty?

The Catholic Church and the Death Penalty

All of this pontificating by Republicans claiming to (in GWB's words) embrace a "culture of life" belies their record on these issues. Can anyone find any substantial proof that all the inmates that went to the death chamber during GWB's reign as govenor were guilty? The claim that over 155 were all guilty and did not deserve at least for him to review their cases is .... sad.

So singling out Democrats for supporting a woman's right to choose and stem cell research (which McCain supports, BTW) is selective posting in order to advance the duplicitous Republican platform.

I wonder how the Vatican feels about the Death Penalty?

The Catholic Church and the Death Penalty

All of this pontificating by Republicans claiming to (in GWB's words) embrace a "culture of life" belies their record on these issues. Can anyone find any substantial proof that all the inmates that went to the death chamber during GWB's reign as govenor were guilty? The claim that over 155 were all guilty and did not deserve at least for him to review their cases is .... sad.

So singling out Democrats for supporting a woman's right to choose and stem cell research (which McCain supports, BTW) is selective posting in order to advance the duplicitous Republican platform.

I'm Catholic and I get very upset by statements like that from one Bishop, and it was one bishop. It ignores the death penalty, it ignores the total absence of social justice on the part of Republicans, it ignores our commitment to those with the least. It defines life and death as one thing. It also places the church smack dab in the middle of politics which it says it is not.

After the debate Fox News had a large room full of undecideds...Most of them raised their hands for Palin..One of the was an African-American lady.. She said that Palin swayed her towards McCain.

After the debate, CNN had a room full of undecided and most of them raised their hands for Biden. Also when they asked if any had made up their minds, most of the one who had made up their minds raised their hands for Obama. They don't get to be in the panel anymore.

The undecided where in Ohio.

Greg

The following is an article pointing out the "facts" stated by the candidates during last night's debate, and the real "truths" of the matter.

----

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081003/ap_on_...bate_fact_check

Some facts adrift in veep debate

By CALVIN WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 2 minutes ago

Republican Sarah Palin criticized a version of a Barack Obama health care plan that doesn't exist and Democrat Joe Biden clung to a misleading charge about Republicans and big oil when the two clashed in the vice presidential debate Thursday.

Some examples of facts cast adrift in the debate:

PALIN: Said of Democratic presidential candidate Obama: "94 times he voted to increase taxes or not support a tax reduction."

THE FACTS: The dubious count includes repetitive votes as well as votes to cut taxes for the middle class while raising them on the rich. An analysis by factcheck.org found that 23 of the votes were for measures that would have produced no tax increase at all, seven were in favor of measures that would have lowered taxes for many, 11 would have increased taxes on only those making more than $1 million a year.

___

BIDEN: Complained about "economic policies of the last eight years" that led to "excessive deregulation."

THE FACTS: Biden voted for 1999 deregulation that liberal groups are blaming for part of the financial crisis today. The law allowed Wall Street investment banks to create the kind of mortgage-related securities at the core of the problem now. The law was widely backed by Republicans as well as by Democratic President Clinton, who argues it has stopped the crisis today from being worse.

___

PALIN: Criticized Obama's "plan to mandate health care coverage and have universal government run program" for health care, and added: "I don't think it's going to be real pleasing for Americans to consider health care being taken over by the Feds."

THE FACTS: Wrong on several counts. Obama's plan does not provide for universal coverage, only mandates insurance for children and doesn't turn the system over to the government. Most people would still get private insurance through their work. Obama proposes that the government subsidize the cost of health coverage for millions who have trouble affording it and he'd set up an exchange to negotiate prices and benefits with private insurers — with one option being a government-run plan.

___

BIDEN: Warned that Republican presidential candidate John McCain's $5,000 tax credit to help families buy health coverage "will go straight to the insurance company."

THE FACTS: That's not surprising — the money is meant to pay for health insurance. The Obama campaign tried to capitalize on the candidates' health care exchange by issuing an ad Friday contending that the Republicans can't explain "the McCain health tax."

___

PALIN: "Two years ago, remember, it was John McCain who pushed so hard with the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform measures. He sounded that warning bell."

THE FACTS: Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska led an effort in 2005 to tighten regulation on the mortgage underwriters — McCain joined as a co-sponsor a year later. The legislation was never taken up by the full Senate, then under Republican control.

___

BIDEN: Said McCain supports tax breaks for oil companies, and "wants to give them another $4 billion tax cut."

THE FACTS: Biden is repeating a favorite saw of the Obama campaign, and it's misleading. McCain supports a cut in income taxes for all corporations, and doesn't single out any one industry for that benefit.

___

PALIN: Said the United States has reduced its troop level in Iraq to a number below where it was when the troop increase began in early 2007.

THE FACTS: Not correct. The Pentagon says there are currently 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 17,000 more than there were before the 2007 military buildup began.

___

BIDEN: "As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry — deregulate it and let the free market move — like he did for the banking industry."

THE FACTS: Biden and Obama have been perpetuating this distortion of what McCain wrote in an article for the American Academy of Actuaries. McCain, laying out his health plan, only referred to deregulation when saying people should be allowed to buy health insurance across state lines. In that context, he wrote: "Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation."

___

PALIN: Said Alaska is "building a nearly $40 billion natural gas pipeline, which is North America's largest and most expensive infrastructure project ever to flow those sources of energy into hungry markets."

THE FACTS: Not quite. Construction is at least six years away. So far the state has only awarded a license to Trans Canada Corp., that comes with $500 million in seed money in exchange for commitments toward a lengthy and costly process to getting a federal certificate. At an August news conference after the state Legislature approved the license, Palin said, "It's not a done deal."

___

PALIN: "Barack Obama even supported increasing taxes as late as last year for those families making only $42,000 a year."

BIDEN: "The charge is absolutely not true. Barack Obama did not vote to raise taxes."

THE FACTS: The vote was on a nonbinding budget resolution that assumed that President Bush's tax cuts would expire, as scheduled, in 2011. If that actually happened, it could mean higher taxes for people making as little as about $42,000. But Obama is proposing tax increases only on the wealthy, and would cut taxes for most others.

___

PALIN: Said a McCain-Palin administration "will support Israel," including "building our embassy ... in Jerusalem."

THE FACTS: Moving the U.S. Embassy from its present location in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is a perennial promise of presidential candidates courting the Jewish-American vote. In fact, moving the embassy is actually required by U.S. law. But successive administrations of both parties, including George W. Bush's, have made the same pledge only to find that the realities of Middle East peacemaking have forced them to invoke a waiver to delay it. Jerusalem is claimed as a capital by both Israel and the Palestinians and Israel's occupation of east Jerusalem is not internationally recognized. The city's status is one of the key issues of disagreement in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

___

Associated Press writers Tom Raum, Steve Quinn, Jim Kuhnhenn, Lolita Baldor and Matthew Lee contributed to this report.

Did any of ya'll get it?

A friend sent this to me and asked me to send it on.

And, if you doubt the veracity of the story, just observe how McCain interacts/does not interact/ignores Cindy on the campaign trail. Hazel (Note from Kate: This shocking account was written by Ana Dubey, a friend of my cousin and her husband, who have known Ana for many years. Ana has a PhD in psychology and has a private

practice in San Francisco. My cousin's husband went to business school with Ana's husband, who has since started and sold a number of successful companies. Ana's husband is currently a Managing Director of a private equity firm in the Bay Area. Ana and her husband are not political activists and don't have any personal ax to grind. In

fact, in writing this account of her experience with John McCain, Ana is acting outside of her own economic self-interest as she and her husband are among the top 3-5% of our population who would benefit from the McCain

tax/economic policies. Please pass this on to anyone you know who might vote for John McCain. Also please post it on blogs and send it to newspapers and radio stations).

Dear Friends,

I have written about my encounter with McCain and his family in 1999 -- please feel free to share my story with whomever you think might be considering voting for him.

Ana

MY HOLIDAY WITH JOHN McCAIN

It was just before John McCain's last run at the presidential nomination in 2000 that my husband and I vacationed in Turtle Island in Fiji with John McCain, Cindy, and their children, including Bridget (their adopted Bangladeshi child).

It was not our intention, but it was our misfortune to be in close quarters with John McCain for almost a week since Turtle Island has a small number of bungalows and their focus on communal meals force all vacationers who are there at the same time to get to know each other intimately.

He arrived at our first group meal and started reading quotes from a pile of William Faulkner books with a forest of Post-Its sticking out of them. As an English Literature major myself, my first thought was "if he likes this so much, why hasn't he memorized any of this yet?"

I soon realized that McCain actually thought we had come on vacation to be a volunteer audience for his "readings" which then became a regular part of each meal. Out of politeness, none of the vacationers initially protested at this intrusion into their blissful holiday, but people's buttons definitely got pushed as the readings

continued day after day.

Unfortunately this was not his only contribution to our mealtime entertainment. He waxed on during one meal about how Indo-Chine women had the best figures and that our American corn-fed women just couldn't meet up to this standard. He also made it a point that all of us should stop Cindy from having dessert as her weight was too high and made a few comments to Amy, the 25 year old wife of the honeymooning couple from Nebraska that she should eat less as she needed to lose weight.

McCain's appreciation of the beauty of Asian women was so great that David the American economist had to move his Thai wife to the other side of the table from McCain as McCain kept aggressively flirting with and touching her.

Needless to say I was irritated at his large ego, and his rude behavior towards his wife and other women, but decided he must have some redeeming qualities as he had adopted a handicapped child from Bangladesh. I asked him about this one day and his response was shocking "Oh, that was Cindy's idea. I didn't have anything to do with it. She just went and adopted this thing without even asking me.

You can't imagine how people stare when I wheel this ugly, black thing around in a shopping cart in Arizona. No, it wasn't my idea at all."

I actively avoided McCain after that, but unfortunately one day he engaged me in a political discussion which soon got us on the topic of the active US bombing of Iraq at that time. I was shocked when he said "if I was in charge, I would nuke Iraq to teach them a lesson". Given McCain's personal experience with the horrors of war I had expected a more balanced point of view. I commented on the tragic consequences of the nuclear attacks on Japan during WWII but no, he was not to be dissuaded. He went on to say that if it was up to him he would have dropped many more nuclear bombs on Japan. I rapidly extricated myself from this conversation as I could tell

that his experience being tortured as a POW didn't seem to have mellowed out his perspective but rather had made him more aggressive, and vengeful towards the world.

My final encounter with McCain was on the morning that he was leaving Turtle Island. Amy and I were happily eating pancakes when McCain arrived and told Amy that she shouldn't be having pancakes because she needed to lose weight. Amy burst into tears at this abusive comment. I felt fiercely protective of Amy and immediately turned to McCain and told him to leave her alone. He became very angry and abusive towards me, and said "don't you know who I am" and I looked him in the face and said "yes, you are the biggest !@#$%^&*] I have ever

met" and headed back to my cabin. I am happy to say that later that day when I arrived at lunch I was given a standing ovation by all the guests for having stood up to McCain's bullying.

Although I have shared my McCain story informally with friends, this is the first time I am making this public. I almost did so in 2000, when McCain first announced his bid for the Republican nomination but it soon became apparent that George Bush was the shoo-in candidate and so I did not act then. However, now that there is a very real possibility that McCain could be elected as our next president, I feel it is my duty as an American citizen to share this story. I can't imagine a more scary outcome for America than that this abusive, aggressive man should lead our nation. I have observed him in intimate surroundings as he really is, not how the media portrays him to be. If his attitudes toward women, and his treatment of his own family are even a small indicator of his real personality, then I shudder to think what will happen to America were he to be elected as our President.

Hazel M. McFerson, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of International Studies and Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution

George Mason University, MS 3F4, Fairfax, VA 22030-4444

Edited October 3, 200817 yr by MoTheGreat

You brought up Oprah...you compared her to "being just like a relative"...My point was that Oprah had not praised her mother as being "brilliant"..Ifill had praised her relative. IA with you that Oprah is beside the point, but you brought her up.....The key issue with Ifill's cousin is if Ifill feels that she is brilliant, then it would not be a huge leap to believe that she agrees with the ideals of her cousin. Usually one would not call someone brilliant unless they agree on subjects..

What is offensive in raising questions about her possible biases? Your use of the term "extremely offensive" is raising my eyebrows...Could you explain that a little further?...You would think that you are related to Gwen Ifill, with the passion in your defense of her "professionalism". This woman has penned a novel covering only one of the candidates participating in this election, and even went as far as naming a political age after him!

It's not like I am questioning her as being unethical out of the blue...!

One of the reasons that I don't like posting with you is it becomes very taxing. You seem to be very selective in what points you respond to and you defintitely hear what you want to hear and cannot seem to get beyond that.

I don't get what is so diffiicult about the fact that Gwen Ifill is not running for office and her family relations, how she feels about them or what she says about them or what they say about her or anyohe else is not important to me.

You weren't seeking to clarify her "professionalism" as far as I am concerned. All you were doing was jumping on the bandwagon of putting her down for writing a book about Obama and assuming you know what her position is.

See this:

As far as I can tell, this whole issue originiated with a couple of people at Fox News. Given the fact that Fox News employs some individuals who have shown racial insensitivity, the question is indeed fair. Had they raised the issue of any other debate moderator then it wouldn't seem suspect and they also ignored the obvious solution of getting a new moderator.

and here:

I have no idea what Oprah's mother has said or has not said about her. It's besides the point. No one should be held responsible for what their relatives say or may say.

It's offensive to me that you want to hold Gwen Ifill responsible for a relative when you ought to hold your candidate responsible for not asking for a new moderator. Instead of smearing the woman (by questioning whether or not she has the ability to be professional), request a new moderator....chapter closed.

It's offensive to me that you posted about Gwen Ifill when the solution is for McCain to ask for a new moderator.

The reason whoever dug up information on Gwen Ifill's cousin did so is because Gwen Ifill had the "audacity" to wonder whether the reason people assume that she is "in the tank" for Obama and the reason that people assume her book favors Obama is becasue she's black. Instead of addressing that possibility the "big brains" said let's dig and now we have proof that her cousin said something then we can just go after her some more. It would be far too logical to have spent that energy asking McCain's campaign to ask for a new moderator.....not when you can travel the sort of route that makes certain Republicans look as if they prefer divisiveness.

I have no idea what Gwen Ifill's cousin said nor do I care what she said since Gwen Ifill's cousin is not running for office and because it's totally irrelevant to the fact that McCain should ask for a new moderator.

McCain is supposed to be a problem solver. If he feels that he has a biased moderator on his hands then the logical, sensible thing to do is ask for a new moderator.

This statement about Tom Brokaw would be more of a reason to question bias than the fact that Gwen Ifill is writing a book and has offered no statement to inidicate she supports Obama:

While Mr. Brokaw said he and the Republican nominee are not personal friends, he did say they are “friendly” and “always had a great relationship.”

No one is going to question whether or not he can be a fair moderator.

If you cannot figure out, after reading this what I find olffensive then I cannot help you. I am not going to respond to anything else by you on this subject. It's exhausted as far as I am concerned.

I wonder why Gwen is being gone after so tough.

Hmmm.........

I'll be happy to say it.....it's because she's black. Some people at Fox News have an issue with certain minorities and one of the people pushing this does not understand that black people are capable of being objective and actually thinking as well....among other extraordinary things. In her mind everything is a negative.

I'll be happy to say it.....it's because she's black. Some people at Fox News have an issue with certain minorities and one of the people pushing this does not understand that black people are capable of being objective and actually thinking as well....among other extraordinary things. In her mind everything is a negative.

Wales, I appreciate and respect your opinions, but I really believe that statement is a bunch of BS. I have not seen one single person on FOX News who behaves in a way that would suggest they have issues with minorities.

IA. I believe Palin was far more successful in reaching out to the undecideds..That is what I would consider "winning"..I think the polls will reflect that..(sorry I am a poll junkie).

Awww, don't be sorry Casey -- you can be wrong about the polls. I won't hold it against you.

Wales, I appreciate and respect your opinions, but I really believe that statement is a bunch of BS. I have not seen one single person on FOX News who behaves in a way that would suggest they have issues with minorities.

So you're saying that running a tape referring to Michelle Obama as Obama's Baby Mama isn't the least bit questionable in terms of racism?

We have differing opinions on this and I have seen enough clips to satisfy me that there are. I don't expect you to believe me nor should you. What counts is that I believe me.