YRBB

NYC Season 4: Boy did Alex grow a pair or what? She hasn't stopped getting angry and confronting people in four episodes. Talk about going from zero to hero lol People breathe the wrong way and she's all over them! Sonja, whom I loved as the sexually free housewife of Season 3, also came out... as an enormous, egotistical bitch. The sh*t she pulled at the gay equality march and throwing Alex out, and getting pissed because her "friend" couldn't go to lunch because she chipped her tooth... Bitch, get a grip. Although I'm watching episode 5 now and her impersonation of Ramona is UNBELIEVABLY good! I mean, wow! LuAnn continues to infuriate me just with her mere presence. She doesn't even need to say anything; her hypocritical, faux-singer face is enough. Cindy, I'm still indifferent to. I don't feel I "know" her well enough yet. Kelly's toned down the craziness, but still. Ramona continues to be the mess she's always been and I love her for it, but she's definitely leaving Entertainmentville and going towards Annoyingville where I'm concerned. In other words, I'm annoyed by everyone LOL! Who would have thought that Jill would be the most tolerable? I expect that to change.

That shot & freeze frame must be one of the most beautiful and iconic images I've ever seen on TV. Such a triumph to a great episode.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I didn't know something like that had happened. I do agree it's best not to get to catfighting; it just seemed like things were often at that breaking point throughout this season.

Oh, joy! More delusion? More LuAnn? I don't think I can handle that! I was actually surprised there wasn't a catfight with all the incessant fights. Do any of the RH shows do catfights? (Don't spoil any NYC ones! lol)

Absolutely true. You just end up feeling sorry for her. How does NYC Season 3 stack up with all the other shows in terms of craziness? It was SUCH an OTT season. I can't believe they got THREE reunion shows out of it. It would be hard to conceive more craziness than this. The only one throughout who was more or less drama free was LuAnn, which was great. She still managed to bug the hell out of me, but at least she wasn't driving any major story. Unfortunately, her song has been stuck on my head for days.

On the other hand, hell must have frozen over because Jill finally admitted she was wrong, she shut up, she took criticism and she is making moves to correct her mistakes. Is this a good twin?

^^LMAO! Her breakdown was jaw-dropping and painful to watch. It seriously seems like she needs help.

Kelly is SO. F*CKING. DELUSIONAL. What is wrong with her???

After a seven month break, I'm going to try to continue Season 3 of NEW YORK. I think I needed the break; Jill, the Countess and most of them just became unimaginably hard to watch.

So happy with The Three Sisters love! It was the perfect physical manifestation of Val's psyche. Such a brilliant, brilliant episode. I guess it was just too surrealistic for some people's tastes.

Just finished The Long and Winding Road, the Season 6 finale. Melodrama at its finest. There's something so great about Abby being the one who tells Val that her babies are alive and having to support her to the car, only to later find her behavior curious, while all along having to make sure she's alright. That final scene (slow motion and all) is great; I did not expect Harry to show up, only to be warned by Sheila, and speed off, while Val makes that quite perfect turn. How cruel (and soapishly delicious!) to have just one of the babies in reach but not the other! I wonder how they're going to continue this. On a completely separate note, Laura looked devastatingly handsome in this episode. Like, drop-dead gorgeous. That's always a plus.

I love LL but that may be a bit of an overstatement LOL. The arrivals of Jo, Amanda and Sydney, along with Kimberly's bigger presence, definitely took the show towards the right direction, but the writing, pace, tone and format changed along with them (slowly from the second half of season 1 and on, and especially in Season 2). If the writing wasn't there, LL could have done nada lol

It sure was. I had absolutely no idea it was coming. It's great when a soap can deliver such a genuine shocker.

Holy cr*p! Dr. Ackerman shot himself in the head in front of Karen and Mac when they finally confronted him about stealing the babies! Well played, KNOTS LANDING, well played.

"Yes you do!" ROFL!

Continuing my journey through Season 6. On "A Price To Pay," there is this really, really awesome Ben/Val scene, in which they return to Ben's fabulous beach house, put on a ballad and dance. It's romantic without being cheesy; that kind of romance is almost extinct nowadays. Meanwhile, Abby is being blackmailed by Greg: Get Gary off Empire Valley and I'll tell you where Val's babies are. Watching Ben/Val and Gary/Abby interact is great. There is no doubt in my mind that Gary/Val are endgame but it's better when they're apart. Just like when Pam and Bobby divorced on DALLAS, there is no other scenario more touching and full of dramatic tension than when the endgame couple is apart, secretly loving each other but never together. In the meantime, Gary and Val's involvement with their respective partners brings on a ton of drama, especially Gary and Abby's relationship. They've been milking it for four seasons already. The show has been very smart about dealing with those two couples. Laura is also in the midst of a low-key, yet satisfying, feud with Ruth. Laura has been going for Ruth's neck, time and time again, even going as far as to tell her that what Greg sees in her is that she's good in the sack! Ruth does what she always does: She takes it in stride, smiles, and moves on to the next insult. Such fabulous TV.

Kenny and Ginger lasting all the way till Season 4 is a sign that they at least were trying to keep the characters (and actors) around, even if it was in a limited capacity. But, in any case, it was always clear to me that they saw the writing on the wall where those two were concerned. I'm REALLY thankful that we didn't have continuous huge storylines focused on them just to make it work--like I've said before, we get that all the time in soaps now and it's one of the reasons why they're ruined--because it just would not have happened. Oh, I don't think anyone claimed she worked better than Ciji! God, no. Cathy was and always would be a replacement. Richard was probably my favorite character in the early seasons; so complex and portrayed by the best actor on the show. However, I understood why he was written out. I don't think he was a very good fit for a lot of the Dunne years and his story seemed to have reached an end. It was just the character, who he was, it would be impossible to bend him in a way to make him fit. Plus, they already had their hands full with doing that for Laura. I agree, I would have loved to see what Richard would do after his divorce but their marriage was dead and I don't see any sense in them continuing to discuss it. At some point, it would have become too much of a good thing. It was painful to see him go but I think his story concluded wonderfully.

We knew more than just that about Laura; for example, the fact that her mother's death forced her to become a substitute mother, a substitute wife... and we saw how that affected her life afterwards. In any case, I don't mean to get bogged down in details. It wouldn't make sense to create lists and see which one is longer lol The point of the matter is, regardless of the past (because that is PLOT, most of the time) what mattered to me was character, a distinction which is not always as clear as should be. And what we saw of Karen and Laura was much more precise and well written than Ginger. From the very beginning, there was nothing undeveloped about Laura; I don't know where that came from! Again, as to liking the stories or not, it's personal taste. I've heard people say they hated the first three seasons. Go figure. I happened to think that Laura's stuff was great in Season 1 (and The Lie remains my favorite of them all). To me, that doesn't make much of a difference. One would be in the credits, the other would not. The lesser actress being the one in the credits. But, since this is about the character's role on the canvas, it was very clear that Ginger's wasn't very fitting. I have never, not once, missed her since she left. Even when she was a regular character, she would disappear and even the characters on the show didn't seem to mind or notice! There was no void by her not being around. On the contrary, on the occasional episode where Lilimae doesn't show up, I always wonder where she is, why wasn't she shown? You described some of the reasons why I loved Lilimae's existence so much. She was making up for lost time and she had nothing better to do lol Why is that bad? That sounds like so many families I know. If she stifled Val's voice, it was great character writing. And the Chip/Josh stories could not have been done without her being permanently around. Especially Chip. She was instrumental in that. As for her day-to-day existence.... most never seemed to mind. But let's agree to disagree on that! I agree--it was all a persona! Even more reasons to love her. So realistic, so true to life. I wanted to smack her too. But that ain't a bad thing!

You see, I thought he fit perfectly. He was the perfect opposite to Angela's villain. He was the good guy but without being boring or angelic. He had his flaws, like being self-righteous and stuffy but that was an acknowledged character trait, not accidental. I tend not to moralize characters' traits (especially on soaps!) but instead observe them, so negative traits such as those don't bother me. I don't agree, at all. What we know is some skin deep info--she was scarred by an abortion (not really a character trait, must be noted) and she didn't have a good relationship with her mom. What did they ever do with that? What drama did that ever produce except for one episode? Instead, Karen and Laura's characters and past fused to produce tons and tons of drama. So maybe Ginger was naive and vulnerable. So what? You can't build an exciting character with just that. Karen and Laura had so many sides to them they sparked drama easily; Ginger's had to be fabricated. Well, this is purely a matter of opinion: Whether one enjoys it or not is up to them. Maybe I'll watch it again to see what I think of it now. Pointer was indeed chilling and it was far from the worse KL episode. But it just didn't resonate with me. Karen could get a bit over the top, that's true, but that was as much Lee's fault as the writing's (if not more). Her... theatrical qualities would come out, almost always to the scenes' detriment. No argument from me here! Diana was really grating, although for me it was in a good way. I think what the show decided to do was just cut its loses and I don't blame them for that. You seem to like Ginger so I see your point of view but she didn't seem all that popular in general. Why try to establish her after four years when every other attempt (however small or large) had failed? I think it deserves to be taken into account that she really wasn't that great of an actress, let's be honest. LOL It's ridiculous how differently I feel about this. She was probably one of their more brilliant characters; so wonderfully complicated, realistic and hard to watch at times. However, there was never anything fake about her. She was what sooooo many people are: A hypocrite, religious and often very harsh on other people. She was an often annoying older woman, who had made many mistakes but desperately tried to make up some of them eventually. There is absolutely no validity to Val's character being "weakened." Why would that weaken her? It was completely IN character for Val to eventually forgive her and find the strength to try and make it work. It spoke VOLUMES about Val's capacity for forgiveness, her desire to be loved, looked after, to have a mother, etc AND it brought a lot of drama. A LOT. When you have a relationship like theirs AND two actresses like Van Ark and Harris, you would have to be crazy not to write for them with every single opportunity! Have Lankford stick around but not Harris? Good Lord!

I wouldn't use any of those as examples. Steven was a viable character that was hurt by a horrible recast and bad writing. No one on DYNASTY worked after Season 3 anyways. Claudia was great until the writing went South; Chase (in the seasons I've seen) was great and an integral part of the fabric of the show, so I have no idea why he would be included. Again, this should be put into context. If one looks at the whole cast of KL and compares them to that couple, wow. The difference is jarring. They were missing at least a couple of dimensions as characters compared to others. They were a 5 and the others were 10s. However, they were kept around and treated far better than one would have expected. Especially after the show took a very different direction in Season 4. One would have expected them to fit in better with that style. I think they kinda did. But the quality of the rest was so high that it would never work. I guess my question to you is, who was Ginger? What can you tell me about her, except that she was often whiny because her husband was horrible in the beginning (more of a plot than a character thing) and wanted to sing? I can give you lists of things about who Val, Laura, Abby, Karen are... but Ginger? Nothing. Nada. In FOUR years, nothing. THAT is why she didn't work as a character. Constant Companion had a haunting storyline? Ex boyfriend's mother stalking you because of your abortion years ago is haunting? Wow, we really do see things very differently in this regard. There is absolutely no comparison to Karen's stuff (especially her first episode, which handled the matter of a woman growing up so subtly, gently and brilliantly). In the end, what did you learn about Ginger after that? It was just plot. Or maybe we did learn something but it never stuck, I dunno. Well, she received equal airtime for a long time, until it was clear that other things were working and hers was not. When you know, you know. If they had pushed to make her work then it would have been one of those things we see regularly on daytime soaps, a la Ryan on AMC etc, were they go overboard to push the character and it ends up worse. Great instinct by the writers there, I would say. I don't recall her bond with Joe but I do recall he and Val created a great bond. Maybe it's slipping my mind. But I am glad you love Laura. I don't think I would touch the subject of Diana because we disagree on that even MORE! I will never understand the outcry against her because I loved Diana, she worked great and she transitioned easily into the soapier era. Plus, I happen to think she is one of the few TV teenagers that ever was realistic, which is possibly one of the reasons she was hated so much. Lonow is a great actress who, I guess, was just too real for TV, too much, too harsh. I don't think people could handle it. I loved every single moment of her yelling lol. The writers obviously loved writing for her but the audience spoke! Well, yes, I do agree she transitioned well. She stayed for a whole season! But it just wasn't enough. Well, Val always had the capacity for tremendous soapy storylines (and, boy, did she ever!). Laura... Laura could never be transitioned into anything, that was the great appeal to her! She was who she was, end of story lol Oh we agree on this! Jacobs (or one of them) have admitted to regretting getting rid of Ciji, it was the only reason the Cathy thing happened. And she really was passive--like you said, things happened to her and she never recaptured the magic of Ciji. But, I wouldn't say their story was very rushed... it was fast, but it's been almost the whole season and marriage just came up now. Karen and Mac were married 15 episodes after they met lol As for them not having plans for her, that doesn't ring true at all. From her reintroduction and scheme with Abby, to her affair with Gary, to Ray's return, to the singing, to her relationship/abuse by Joshua... she was kept pretty busy. But it would have been nice if she was a bit less passive.

Yes, I do remember thinking she was becoming too much of a victim, but the story was great and she still had her sarcastic edge and good moments. Once Star left... disasterville.

I don't think this has happened yet... Or there might have been one. In any case, nothing regular. But it seems exactly the type of Latham nonsense!

They did try. More than enough. The fact that they were kept around for four years is evidence enough that they wanted to make it work. Can you name any other show that would have done it? Ginger was given the same treatment the other three ladies were from the beginning. Each lady had a standalone episode in the beginning that was meant to showcase them and develop them. In Karen, Val and Laura's case (with Let Me Count The Ways, Will The Circle Be Unbroken and The Lie) it was a resounding success. Three of some of the best hours of TV I've ever seen. With Ginger on Constant Companion, a huuuuge, boring failure. Yet, they were given story and involved as much as possible. However, I agree that the idea of Ginger in the middle years of the show, with Joshua, works for me. But Lankford would have never done well (just like she never did in any of the other seasons) and pairing her against the wonderful Baldwin seems like suicide. But it doesn't matter because Joshua didn't even come in until Season 6. What would Ginger have done in Season 5? And she had a baby too! I don't even know what to say about the Cathy comment. You've stunned me. She was never the greatest or most complicated of characters but she worked wonderfully. I don't see why you don't like her. But, then again, you also don't like Lilimae? looooool

In the meantime, I just watched A Man of Good Will, Lynn Latham and Bernard Lechowick's first episode of KL. My God, what a weird experience that was! All of a sudden, you have Karen walking around with a soda can, Michael talking about a game, Mack saying things like "que paso?" and all sorts of "everyday" things that are meant to make the characters look more realistic, yet come off as fake. Totally unnecessary considering that KL was actually pretty good about weaving soapy and everyday things together in scenes. What was even more shocking, however, was how they were allowed to change the tone of the show! There was freaking "funny" music throughout (horribly reminiscent of DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES)! Most of the scenes were written lightly, humorously, and the drama and soapiness turned down. The ending (a GREAT twist that revealed that Gary was given Empire Valley by Galveston) played, again, for laughs, instead of seriously. UUUUGH--it reminded me so much of the changes made my Latham on Y&R that I almost gagged. You can see the pattern. Do they hate drama? I guess they do. The whole episode felt like late 80s KNOTS LANDING set in 1985. Why were they allowed to do this? What is it about these writers that they always manage to take over whatever show they get involved with, always to the show's (eventual) detriment?

Nobody can blame KNOTS LANDING for writing them out, of course. They tried. They really tried. They gave them four years and it never worked. Even after the kind of reboot and the soapier direction the show took in Season 4, Dunne kept them around and artfully got them involved as much as possible. But it was clear that neither the characters or actors were ever going to work (and they sure did try to make it happen) from the very beginning. After all, how can you have Gary, Sid/Mack, Richard and... Kenny? The dichotomy is stupendous. Same with Val, Karen, Abby, Laura and Ginger. You compare the first four with the last and its laughable.