dc11786

Coulson was David Cherrill. How did people enjoy his writing on "The Doctors" with Linda Grover and later with Elizabeth Levin?

21 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

Yes, I was just Mitch but when you had to be authenticated it would not take that handle so I had to add in a number. 

Marah as the stalker would have been great...she would have YEARS of resentment towards Reva disappearing and causing strife and trauma in their lives. She would be a daddy's girl that would see what Reva has done to turn Josh inside and out and I never accepted the Rauch/E & B plot where Marah all of a sudden turned on "Mommy Annie" when the [!@#$%^&*] hit the fan..I would have had her secretly understanding Reva pushing Annie over the edge.  But yea, McKeon couldn't act that out. 

I liked Jonathon and Tammy as a sicko dysfunctional thing....Tammy was always WAY too blond suburbany for a girl whose formative years were spent with her Mommy stripping so I could see her having a masochistic relationship with him out of lack of self esteem. But as soon as they were Twu Wuv I lost interest. In that scene Pelphery was definitely leaning into a sexual vibe deliberately trying to turn Sandathon on...I imagine it must have really freaked TPTB out.  Which leads to my plot, which I think was based on those tattoos that Jeffie, Sandy and Jonathon had that was never explained...I can't remember, maybe they were call boys with Jeffie as their pimp..Jonathon being part of a sexual scam operation with his daddy's look alike as the head of it would have been just the kind of stuff I think Pelphery would like to play out..I think he was bored with the generic bad boy with the heart of gold, so he starting chewing that damn scenery...Anyway .anything to really get the Brad Cole cows upset and get him off my screen. 

I am glad to know you are also just Mitch. I found your commentary very amusing. The more I think about it, I think you proposed that the call boy situation was a cover for some spy ring too. I thought it definitely would have made the fanbases lose their minds. 

I think Marah took Reva's prison stint hard. There was a rather noted confrontation where Marah really laid into Reva, but I don't think Lindsey McKeon was very good in it. Truthfully, I try not to remember too much of McKeon in 2002 because I had the misfortune of watching the "Rape Me Tony" scene at a neighbor's house with their 8 year old grandchild (my neighbor was a GL fan as well). 

The first round of Jonathan/Tammy (September-November, 2004) was wonderful. When it was all about Jonathan enacting revenge, it was quite good. There was just something deliciously twisted about that being the angle that Jonathan took to hurt Reva. There was the added element that Tammy had been raised by Richard that I don't remember being mentioned too often. I also wish they had explored what actually happened on the mountain when Sandy left Jonathan for dead because they had two different versions of the story. 

I thought Sandy became interesting as the imposter son, but that they needed to explore that background. What motivated him to do that? There was a comment made by Frank DiCoupolous of all people at some event around December, 2004, that the audience would be shocked to learn who Sandy's mother really was. The general thought was they were going to try to make him Annie's son. The stuff with Ava later on was half baked at best, but I wasn't watching much by then. 

The crazy thing about the Twu Luv stuff was they didn't make any strong attempts to repair any of the harm done, and then they leaned into it even harder. I remember Jonathan saved Tammy from a fire and that was it redemption moment. Maybe a single episode in the summer of 2005. I thought the most insane thing was having Jonathan being the one to try in Sandy for the bigamy charges. I get Jonathan wanting to make Sandy suffer, but it humiliated Tammy.

I was curious about Justin Klosky's return in 2006 so I watched just Jonathan/Tammy/Joey/Lizzie scenes from March, 2006. It was wild seeing them bring Joey back for a few episodes, play up a very nice (as well as rushed) reunion between Joey and Tammy and still have Tammy choose Jonathan. It was also wild because they had Lizzie comment how if they hadn't drugged Joey than Jonathan/Tammy wouldn't have happened. 

I think if Tammy and Jonathan were portrayed as the toxic couple they were and how Jonathan ultimately was playing on her insecurities and how Tammy enabled Jonathan's violent impulsivity there would have been something to explore. Instead, Love Conquered All until Tammy died. 

20 hours ago, Khan said:

OMG, I remembered those tattoos, lol!

As I recall, Conboy/Weston often would introduce some random plot point that was forgotten almost as soon as it was mentioned.  Jonathan/JB came later, of course, but your mention of those tats, @Mitch64, brought this to mind.

I remember that happened a lot during that time period and, occasionally, it would be revisited randomly. I remember Russ Anderson talking about how his character, Christopher Langham, had a secret but he was never told what it was. 

19 hours ago, Dan said:

I thought I remembered that being earlier in the month but you're right. In fairness, anything with Carmen and Danny/Michelle while St. Alban in the role could put anyone in a coma along with Carmen.

I don't remember if Carmen was offcanvas after Danny's "death" in November. I had forgotten about that story until I was looking through clips. There might have been a gap which is why you thought she was off earlier. 

I've seen it listed as 2 DVDS with 21 episodes on each DVD for a total of 42. However, it's entirely possible it is 21 episodes on 2 DVDs and the person wrote it wrong. I imagine that the source would probably be the same source for the "Guiding Light" episodes from the same period so it may be more likely that it is only 21 and the other DVD is actually the GL episodes. 

There are about 40 something episodes from summer 1966 in the trading circles. I'm not sure if they are online. 

15 minutes ago, Vee said:

Yeah, I am pretty certain it was Wheeler/Kreizman who undid Sandy as Jonathan. I may be wrong but I don't think so. They were right to do it, it was so anticlimactic and he was such a lame character.

I always thought it was a huge mistake not trying to get Billy Kay back. He seemed poised for big things with L.I.E., etc. (with Brian Cox and a very young Paul Dano) but sort of vanished.

Wheeler and Kriezman undid Sandy as Jonathan. Sandy appeared on screen in August, 2003. The anti-climatic reveal that Sandy was Jonathan came in late October, 2003, when Reva caught him stealing from the Lewis safe. If I recall, Sandy meandered a bit playing a supporting role in the younger set storyline (he was directing "Romeo & Juliet" which was like a C-story for the then younger set Joey, Tammy, and Lizzie (who were all recurring as I recall until a few week before John Conboy was bounced. It wasn't until they decided in April, 2004, that they were going to do a Shayne/Marina/Sandy. Kit Pacquin (the very brief Marina) was in the role at the time. I seem to recall Pacquin's Marina having a conversation with Olivia while Sandy was talking to Buzz. Sandy basically got all angsty wanting Marina, but it was pretty one-sided from what I recall. This played out until Shayne was written out in June (or early July), 2004.

Shayne was shipped off to Bosnia I believe to teach kids how to play baseball. It felt very much like they were resetting Shayne to be a more huminitarian/do-gooder type when he would return down the line. I think it was around this time that we were getting the previews of Kriezman's first stories so it was clear they were setting up Shayne as the good brother, not that he wasn't already, but more bland with Marty West in the role. I figured Shayne would be back within a year, but I was clearly wrong. I never thought Kay would come back, but he certainly was good in the role. 

Once Shayne was gone, I don't think they did much with Marina and Sandy, but I might be forgetting. Kriezman was headwriter in In late August, 2004, the bigger hints were being dropped about Sandy being an imposter. He was working for Reva at the time, I think, and Hawk Shayne popped up and suggested that he might not be who he claimed. I cannot recall the exact reasons. Anyway, the hints continued until Jonathan (calling himself JB) first appeared in September, who I believe was initially selling Lizzie a drug to get Joey Lupo into bed. It was the Lizzie/Joey "hookup" (they didn't have sex but Lizzie led Tammy and Joey to beleive they had had sex) that led to Phillip paying off Joey to leave town and for a depressed Tammy to decide to go trolling for sex. Initally, she propositioned Tony Santos before becoming prey for JB. 

Then in October, 2004, JB started taunting Sandy I think. It looked like JB was the one who was trying to run down Tammy with a car and Sandy jumped into the way to save her. This led to Sandy's coma and Reva learning that she couldn't be Sandy's mother. JB and Tammy were hanging around while Sandy was on life support. When he was finally able to speak, Sandy told the truth to Reva about Jonathan because Jonathan had made it clear his plan was to deflower Tammy to hurt Reva. This all happened (surprisingly) before November sweeps. 

14 hours ago, Dan said:

Alot of the episodes from 2003 are missing the end credits but I did find one from April 2003 that shows Bailey credited as Sandy and another actor credited as the voice of the "Mole."

As far as Billy Kay, I don't believe he was ever on contract and he also had a bunch of other projects in 2002, including Halloween Resurrection so that could have factored into the decision, but we all know he wasn't a Conboy-type actor so his days would probably have been numbered either way. I do remember Kay's last episode was probably the Christmas 2002 show. 

I vaguely rememer the voice of the Mole being someone else. I don't think Weston figured out her direction for Sandy until October or so. As I recall, he was revealed as Jonathan in late October and then they had him doing the play with Tammy, Lizzie, and Joey. 

I had forgotten Kay was also in one of the "Halloween" films. 

14 hours ago, Khan said:

I thought it either had to be someone we knew but with a huge twist (example: Cassie blacking out and stalking her sister, perhaps under the influence of some alter ego) or it was someone whom we didn't know and had never heard of before, which would mean that Culliton/Taggart likely went into the story with no idea how it would end.

I don't remember much of what Marah was doing during this time. I remember there was an attempt to build some animosity between Marah and Reva. Marah as the stalker under the circumstances you stated (either blacking out or some other psychological issue) might have been compelling especially if Jonathan was blamed first. The only issue is that Lindsey McKeon couldn't have handled that.

39 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

Timing is off here a bit....Carmen went into a coma when Bill tackled her as she was pulling a gun (yet again) on Chele at the Bauer house...Carmen hit her head on a step and she was carted off and everyone was like....so do we order a pizza or go out,  no one gave a damn. That was on New Year's Eve.  Eddie and Liv worked quite nicely with the Spaulding's, but Collin's sexy Alex worked better with him then Marj's whatever the hell she was doing with Alex. (though she did quite well as Alex before Weston took over.)

I remember the eye popping he did all the time. He was cute but not interesting but I saw him on a commercial and he aged into a very handsome man. He had chemistry with one person, Pelphery and there was one scene where TP was on top of him in a hospital bed taunting him and thought the reveal would be that Sandy was Joanthon "experimented" which made sense as TP gave Jonathon a vibe where he would do anyone as long as he could manipulate them with sex. 

Taggert/Culliton always intended the stalker to be Jonathon but didn't Weston change that to make it Alex...(picking up from a real stalker who was caught..) to stop world class journalist Reva from discovering Gus was Alan's kid with that stupid nun...(and yes, Gus was supposed to be either Alan or Ed's kid with Rita.) which led to her drugging Alan (Mac n' Cheese Alan) which JLH admitted they made him Alan's kid as they liked the way RR and RPG kidded around with each other backstage...(huh???) and then led to Alex being a drug lord so they totally butchered Alex. 

Oh I remember the days where a Rassie fan got hit by a car crossing a street she was so upset about Richie dying, and then the Manny's sending LW a stuffed big bird doll..again, I lay it all on MADD's feet that she stuck to the formula to appease those fruitcakes.  

Carmen was trying to run off with Robbie on New Year's Eve because he was the only person who still loved her at that point so she appeared for a couple episodes under Conboy, but I imagine that was already in motion. Then again, Weston reversed other things. Now that I think about it, John Fiore's Vinnie Salerno basically replaced Carmen as the mob heavy even though he didn't have the connections to the canvas, though I do think Eden turned out to be one of his former mistresses. 

Yes, Bailey dated all his co-stars (Crystal Hunt, Kit Pacquin) but couldn't generate chemistry with anyone onscreen. I really wanted him and Tammy to work given the story setup, but I've never seen a chemistry test fail SOOOO badly. I still would have invested in Tammy and Sandy over Tammy and Jonathan. Sandy/Jonathan having a sexual backstory would have made sense. I remember Jonathan mounting Sandy in the hospital after Lizzie ran Sandy over (which was never really resolved) and thinking that Pelphrey was definitely leaning into the potential sexual backstory. 

@Mitch64 did you use to use the other handle of just Mitch? If so, I remember you had some wickedly delicious campy story suggestions involving Jonathan/Sandy and I think Jeffrey O'Neill. I tried finding them over the years, but cannot seem to locate them.

@Paul Raven I think the source of the Allens appearing in 1966 is actual episodes. I believe they are part of the set of episodes from the summer of 1966 that have been circulating. If not, I think it's a summary of episode available at the Paley Center. Prior to that episode appearing, I don't think any of the Allens had been mentioned or if they had been no time period had been assigned to them. 

So Kitty Allen appeared in 1966 and 1967. 

@FrenchFan Thank you for sharing these. I appreciate seeing how the pacing works in individual episodes. It seems like these episodes are lots of repetition of exposition even though they are so short. What are your thoughts on the episodes?

3 hours ago, Khan said:

Jonathan/Sandy/Sock Puppet Master as the culprit might have been good if we had been introduced (or re-introduced, as it were) to the character some time before the stalking storyline - like, say, right on the tail end of Reva pulling the plug on Richard? - and if it had been an "open mystery," where we knew all along (or at least early on) who it was, but no one on the show did (because, again, outside of him, there were no viable suspects on the canvas...even Holly would not have had a strong enough reason for doing it...which makes the entire storyline an Idiot Plot, when you think about it).  IIRC, however, Jonathan had not been seen or heard from for a long time; and as far as anyone in Springfield or in the general audience knew, he still was in San Cristobel with Marissa and her husband.

As I said upthread, that was a really shitty way to introduce a new (or SORAS'ed) character.  (And no, hearing only Scott Bailey's voice for months before his first, on-screen appearance does not count, lol).

I agree and disagree regarding the Reva stalker story. Reva was recently released from prison for turning off Richard's life support because Richard's living will had been discovered back in October/November. I want to say Cassie (or was it Edmund?) who found it and there seemed to be a question whether or not they would use it to free Reva. While the living will exonerated Reva legally, she still had to deal with the lingering ill will attached to her decision. Per her normal modus operandi, Reva had acted impulsively in a situation, which ultimately hurt others. Cassie, Tammy, and Edmund all had the right to be angry with her. Marah told her off a couple times, but I believe they had reconcilled by then. 

I don't remember why Holly was suspected other than she was connected to Reva and she had been unhinged during the Nursery Rhyme Stalker plot (which was also referenced in this time frame as Ed babysat Robbie while Michelle and Bill went out on a date, and Michelle expressed concern about Ed allowing Holly to be around Robbie). Holly may, and this may completely be wrong, have been suspected because Reva had "abandoned" Jonathan, which may have been how they were working Jonathan back in. 

Ultimately, it is how they introduced Jonathan when he was came back to Springfield to seek revenge against Reva and Sandy.

3 hours ago, Vee said:

It was obvious from the jump the stalker was supposed to be Jonathan, whoever he turned out to be played by. The choice (under Conboy/Weston IIRC) of his being Sandy was always bizarre to me. I didn't like the character and his strange introduction as a voice-over DJ with a hand puppet or something was just another bizarre flourish of that team.* Plus Sandy just seemed too pedestrian a guy to be Reva's long-lost tropical prince of a son. He was a boring guy with a bit of generic spunk. It was a nothing event. Which is why it didn't surprise me when the next team changed it up and found Pelphrey, hellbent on revenge.

*(Ironically, OLTL '03 had one of its few successes around this time with Al Holden as radio DJ The Voice of the Night, following in stepmother Luna's footsteps - but we knew fairly quickly it was Al, a character the audience was invested in, and there were no fúckin' puppets.)

Maybe @Dan or someone else would remember better. I know John Conboy hired Scott Bailey because both Bailey and Marty West auditioned for the same role (I feel like it was Jonathan). West was given a contract as Shayne Lewis, but the previous actor, Billy Kay, had been on recurring. I don't know if Kay was offered a contract, but the general consensus was a) he wasn't conventionally attractive enough for Conboy and b) he was developing some minor street cred with indie film work (he had recently appeared as a teenage hustler in "L.I.E."). I think Bailey was originally hired as Jonathan Baynes, the stalker and Reva's son. Then, Conboy and Weston changed their minds so they kept him as the voice on the radio. I actually think he had ANOTHER name before Sandy Foster in the credits, but that was something I am just recalling now. 

When he first appeared in the summer (I want to say August/September at some sort of protest), I don't think they had figured out yet what they were going to do with him. He was definitely presented as a love interest for Marah, but it was mostly on Marah's side. So it was left ambigious whether or not Sandy would actually be Jonathan until Reva caught him stealing from the Lewis safe and Sandy revealed who he was. 

I'm trying to remember, did Marah play much with Stephen Martines/Colton Scott's Tony? I remember that change occured around the same time. I feel like September 2003 was a big change month. Eden and Tony were recast. Nico was introduced. There was that brief Spaulding missing intern story with Michael Swan (and later Mark Pinter) and Linda Cook as the young woman's mother. 

lol The puppet appeared like one time. I remember it was "Sandy and the Mole." I don't even know if I saw the episode that puppet was in. 

3 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

Scott Bailey was indeed generic and never offered nothing special. His acting work also left a lot to be desired, whether it was on GL, Undressed (don’t judge me lol), that MyNetwork TV telenovela where he was really, really bad, or the Kamen Rider remake on the CW. 

God I loved Scott Bailey. He was by no means a great actor, but as a closeted teen I definitely found my type, attractive socially awkward guys. 

I loved the MyNetworkTV novelas. They were (are?) on Tubi or at least a couple of them are. It's funny. Annalynn McCord who is popping up on another show soon (I won't say for spoiler reason) was in the vignettes that were filmed for one of the unproduced novelas, "Rules of Engagement." Dylan Bruce was the male lead in the filmed scenes. It was set to begin filming when the novela projects were scrapped, but I don't remember if Bruce or McCord were still attached.  

2 hours ago, Khan said:

The Santoses were gnawing on one half of GL, and the San Cristobel crew was noshing on the other half.  If you were like me and not a fan of either contingent, then you were S.O.L.  Therefore, I was glad when someone - Taggart, Culliton, Rauch/Conboy, the intern who refilled the coffee makers every morning, but someone - finally pulled the plug on both.  Unfortunately, flushing both the Rassies and the Mannies merely created a vacuum for the GusHers to fill - and IMO, the GusHers were worse than the Mannies and Rassies combined, because their attacks on those who did not agree with them could get very nasty and very personal, very quickly.

For me, Gus and Harley's aborted wedding was the moment when I saw how Kreizman and Wheeler's GL was going to be - basically, reinforcing GusHers' ridiculous notion that "Spauldings BAD, Coopers GOOD" - and I knew that the show was never going to get better.

The shippers were bad. I remember thinking Claire Labine was killing the San Cristobal setting with the tea cup story that led to the revelation that Richard wasn't the legitimate son of King George (or whoever) and was the son by his mistress. Instead, they ended up holding elections. Ugh! At least Michelle was a Bauer and it kept her front and center, but ultimately I'm not sure if that was a good thing. By the time GusH took over, I was one foot out the door so I don't remember their nonsense. 

I liked Gus and Harley's aborted wedding, but, yes, I can see how that was really the mark where it was leaning into a very black and white view of the Coopers and the Spauldings which I don't think did anyone any favors. 

11 minutes ago, Dan said:

Your timing is correct. And I absolutely agree on the point that the Taggert/Gold regime basically blundered into the fall. Yes there was some improvement but it really wasn't until Culliton got there when things really started to focus. But that's generally Carolyn Culliton's reputation of really giving a show some polish it wouldn't have otherwise. Hell, between her, Stephen Demorest, and Hal Corley would Hogan Sheffer's first year at ATWT be as memorable? Probably not based on the rest of Sheffer's career. 

One thing I really appreciated at the time was the show seemed to bring back those scenes between friends (or former friends) that didn't really move the plot but just seemed like organic story building. The kind that this show was absolutely the best at doing. I remember a wonderful sequence of scenes with Beth and Olivia at a skating rink just talking about the couple intrigue in their lives. It didn't move plot in the slightest, but it was an insightful conversation between 2 former friends. 

Don't get me wrong, even at that time, the show still had it's problems both in characters and plot, but it really felt that it could have been a springboard moment for the show if someone cared enough to see it through. It's the last time for me, being really too young to enjoy the Curlee tenure, that the show felt like the show I loved. 

Culliton definitely seemed like the missing piece. I think the Conboy produced episodes definitely showed the potential if the writers wrote and Conboy was kept out of the writers office. 

I will say I like those type of scenes or playing minor story beats that don't contribute to the overall story but provide a moment for self reflection (the above mentioned Michelle fears Holly around Robbie). I remember that seem to happen a lot in early Wheeler as well. There was a rather nice moment between Alexandra and Phillip at Spaulding Enterprises about May, 2004, when Alexandra just reflected upon how lonely her life had become. There was also a nice moment where Billy gave Little Bill a piece of jewelry belonging to Billy's great grandmother (or some other relation) who was Native American as they were building up to Eden and Bill's (non)-wedding. 

1 hour ago, Khan said:

I knew we were done for as GL fans when John Conboy brought back Bradley Cole as Jeffrey because some of Cole's cult followers had sent Conboy some damn flowers.  Clearly, those shut-ins had watched Y&R/CAPITOL and knew the best way to influence Conboy.

I was not as high on Conboy/Culliton/Taggart, because I thought it still paled in comparison to the GL I had watched growing up.  On the other hand, it was a damn sight better than everything that had occurred during Paul Rauch's reign, so I was willing to give Culliton, Taggart and especially Conboy a chance, despite my misgivings.  (IMO, Conboy was someone who needed a strong HW in order to be effective as a producer.  Otherwise, the man was just a glorified lighting designer).

Then - like you said, @Dan - it all turned to [!@#$%^&*], beginning with how Ellen Weston effed up the climax of the Reva stalker story.  Not that I thought the story was great to begin with, lol.  Reva as a talk-show hostess made no sense to me; and for all the suspense that Culliton and Taggart had generated around the identity of Reva's stalker, it still amounted to a "black glove story," one where it was clear they had no idea who to pin the crimes on, as there were no viable suspects on the canvas.  (Over the years, I have heard that Alexandra was the intended culprit, with the motive of framing Holly.  I still do not know whether to believe that, lol).  But even if no resolution to the mystery would have been 100-percent effective, anything would have been better than the resolution Weston gave us.  (I will not spoil for those who do not know and want to find out, but I tell you, of all the shitty ways to introduce a new character to a soap, that had to have been one of the shittiest).

The Rassies and the Mannies were well organized. I´ll give them that. I thought Cole´s return was a blunder for sure and felt someone had needed to sit Conboy down and explain that the Internet had changed the fanbases. When was the Cassie effigy in the form of a demented Big Bird that the Mannies sent to the set? Was that still with Raunch in the office? 

I don´t remember the flowers, but I do remember Conboy saying he was dumbfounded how the show could have let him go given the number of fans he had. You can almost imagine the Rassies making a video collage of Marty West´s oil wrestling videos intercut with horror movie clips ending with a Rassie smashing a twinkie as the ultimate threat to Conboy´s harem.  

The original culprit in Reva´s stalking was Jonathan Baynes, Reva´s son by Richard who was later renamed Randall. Scott Bailey was hired to play the part, but then they made him Sandy, the radio show DJ. Bailey appeared as just a voice for months and I don´t think he first appeared until August despite being on contract in like February or March.

BTW, 

1 hour ago, Khan said:

To be honest, @Vee, I had mixed feelings about Labine joining GL.  For one thing, I knew from the start that she and Paul Rauch would be a bad combination.  (Unfortunately, I was proven right).  For another, Labine's writing style, IMO, was better suited to ABCD's earthier, more urbane shows than it was a conservative, P&G-produced show like GL.  Even if MADD was intent on ABC-ifying the P&G shows, there still was a traditional, middle-American vibe to ATWT and GL that was hard to eradicate.

Raunch and Labine were never going to work. I´ll agree on that. I don´t think Labine was a bad fit though, but she was certainly hired for the wrong reasons. Given her track record at ¨General Hospital,¨ it appeared CBS and P&G wanted her to continue to turn GL into CBS daytime´s answer to ¨The Sopranoes.¨ I think early 1990s ¨Guiding Light¨ tonally is something that Labine could have worked within. Also, if the woman could bring life into ¨Love of Life,¨ than I don´t think GL was too conservative for her lol. 

1 hour ago, MichaelGL said:

My guess was Reva's stalker was going to turn out to be Jonathan who resented Reva for not only giving him up, but for killing his father Richard. It would've made sense since we just had resolved the Richard/pull the plug storyline and suddenly somebody was stalking Reva. 

That´s how I remember it. I remember them suspecting it was Annie and us seeing Annie in the mental hospital that Alan had designed to look like the Lewis living room (correct?). Jonathan was missing at the time. I believe it was Olivia who informed Reva of this. 

10 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Ellen Weston had written for Capitol and several TV movies. She was as experienced as some other writers who got gigs on soaps. And she was a friend of Conboy.

As a friend of Conboy, I believe she also wrote for his Euro soap, Secrets. 

1 hour ago, Dan said:

I think the last official episode they were credited was the 28th with the bomb going off during the call in show. I remember exactly where I was when I figured out that the Conboy era was going to go straight to hell. I was at a Safeway looking through a copy of SOD and saw that Maureen Garrett was being taken off contract. Rauch for all of the negative things about him always stood up for Holly and Blake/Ross being on contract. And with Holly finally getting more screen time in early 2003 and then that news, I know my enjoyment of the show was going to drop. I just don't think I correctly estimated by how much. The late 2002/early 2003 episodes were the best period of GL that I watched live and I wish like hell it could have continued. I really think the show might have been saved if it had and that's the tragedy. 

I have a hunch and I've never been able to prove it, but I think the Maryanne Carruthers story is probably a David Kreizman idea. Besides her brief role on the show as an actress in the 60s she didn't seem to have a real working knowledge of the history of the show. Considering how many past stories that arc ripped off, it would have had to come from someone with at least a working knowledge of the show.

Kreizman had been with the show since 94 and showed in his own tenure that he did know the shows history even if his execution was just at the level of really bad fan fiction. 

For some reason, I had associated the start of Weston with the new opening credits, which are in the February 24, 2003, episode. I remember the bombing being the last episode as well so I was surprised to see Taggart and Culliton credited in the post-bombing episode March 3, 2003. This is their last credited episode. I know that the show was still on a delay or maybe these are misnumbered. 

A lot of uproar started when it was announced Taggart was replaced. Didn´t Culliton stay on for a few more months before being replaced by Donna Swajeski in the fall? Then, the new opening sequence brought out more groans. 

In reflection, I think one of the reasons I didn´t completely deride Conboy/Weston because I enjoyed what they did with Phillip and Olivia, even if it wasn´t as strong as it was or would have been under Taggart and Culliton. Chappell and Alexander just ran with whatever they were given and the script writers seemed to make it work.

I agree that December 2002-February 2003 was incredibly strong. I felt that energy was similar in the early months of Wheeler (April - June 2004). It was probably because they were just cutting heads and stalling the rest of the stories, but I enjoyed that period as much (if not more than) Culliton/Taggart/Conboy. I would be curious who was script doctoring because I´d believe it was Weston´s work over Swajeski (who couldn´t do much in the lengthy term she had with Kriezman). 

I´d offer up the suggestion that Swajeski might have cooked up bits of the Maryanne Carrouthers plot. Carrie Nye was supposedly a friend of Ellen Westonś according to Wikipedia. I don´t remember that personally. I do remember Weston´s college roommate was Lanie Kazan and she appeared in a single episode as Joey Lupo´s mother, Shirley(?) Lupo. Mrs. Lupo was mentioned afterwards until I want to say Joey departed in September, 2004.  

1 hour ago, Vee said:

This is the first I'm hearing of people loving this period so much with Conboy already on base. It's interesting to hear discussion of from more veteran fans; I may have to go back and look at it again. I just remember the Conboy/Weston regime that followed being utterly deranged in a new way, as bad as Rauch's excesses yet somehow even worse. On a side note I'd really thought Claire Labine would work out at the show, it's too bad she didn't.

The MAC/Annabelle Sims story, from both decades, is ultimately just a farfetched, kludged-together ripoff of Peter Straub's horror classic book and film Ghost Story, which came out shortly before the original take on the storyline in the '80s. I couldn't believe they were ripping off the same storyline twice, both times clumsily retconning all the elder male characters as having known each other long ago when it just did not work. I do think Kreizman had some good ideas early on - a Roger revisit with Holly, an Ed return, Jonathan - but it was clear he had no ability to execute (and the Sebastian story became a nightmare).

On this board, I remember the general consensus was that the show was running on all cylinders at the time. In context of the greater soap landscape, it just wasn´t enough considering Guza had returned to ¨General Hospital¨ in June, 2002, Hogan Sheffer was still being praised for ¨As the World Turns," and Paula Cwikly and Peter Brash had started at ¨Days of Our Lives¨ in early 2002. Add in the impending return of Michael Malone to ¨One Life to Live,¨ the happenings at ¨Guiding Light¨ were registering with the general soap audience. Also, the ratings didn´t move, from what I recall. I know Weston hit a new low fairly early into her run (March or April, 2003) but the number she was beating was from several weeks earlier (or maybe months) under Culliton and Taggart. 

Conboy´s version was very flashy. In hindsight, I probably wanted it to work much more than it actually did. Even when people were being dropped from contract we usually saw them (Holly, I think may have been the exception who I think appeared only twice after August, 2002, for Blake and Ross´ Christmas remarriage and a one-off in Febraury, 2003, to tell Ed she was there for him during the tailend of the Maryanne Carrouthers tale. 

Kriezman had an incredibly strong fall with JB´s arrival, Roger´s death, Phillip´s downfall, and just a plethora of interesting character interactions. By January, 2005, it was clear how Kriezman/Wheeler´s run was going to be. The fascination with Tom Pelphrey quickly grew old and switching from a Manny overload to a GusH overload only meant less prominence of the Bauers (even though Manny tended to be a problem to everything rather than a solution). I appreciated that Wheeler liked the veterans, but she was always trying to create a show she didn´t have the money to produce. That´s why I am curious if Tomlin could have salvaged it, but it was probably too far gone. 

44 minutes ago, Dan said:

The story part of that was the culmination of the previous year's worth of work from the writing team. San Cristobel had been written out of the show in February, Richard was killed and the stronger elements of the story, Edmund and Olivia were mixed with the Spaulding story quite successfully. Carmen had finally been sent packing in November, bringing the mob story to an (albeit temporarily since Weston would bring it back) end. The Tory nonsense was over and Blake and Ross seemed well on the way toward a reunion.

The show started to refocus toward the people we always cared about and brought about new couplings that seemed interesting. Relationships with Cassie and Bill brought new spark to Danny and Michelle that hadn't been seen since Joie Lenz left the role with the added satisfaction of royally pissing off 2 fan bases. 

The beginning of the Reva stalker story and Gus' parentage were interesting even if the resolution to both were botched by Weston. Phillip had softened a bit from having the stick up his ass from earlier in the year. Ed and Holly seemed to be heading towards a reunion. 

The Conboy came in and got rid of the Rauch pastels and bright lights and, at least initially, it was a breath of fresh air. The story was still top notch and the added production value seemed to really make something of the show. And then it all went to pieces. 

2002 started with Lucky Gold and Christopher Dunn, right? I think Taggart was added as a headwriter around March/April. Carolyn Culliton replaced Lucky Gold sometime in the fall September/October. Then Raunch left in November with Mary Alice Dwyer Dobbins acting as defacto EP for the brief time before John Conboy started. 

The show got some goodwill from the 50th anniversary episodes featuring Josh and Reva  yet again with guest appearances from Maeve Kincaid, Krista Terseau, Rebecca Hollen, and some others. Ed Bauer and Bill Lewis were both brought back around then too. For me, though, it was still very messy. I remember being excited Bill was back and then remember watching them reveal he knew Lorelei and being like, yep, I´m out. 

Taggart still struggled a bit into the fall of 2002. I was not a fan of Marah Lewis screech at Tony Santos to basically rape her or for Cassie Winslow to be stripping for Danny Santos because she owed him money and this was suppose to lead to romance. I liked Bill and Michelle, but I´m not sure what story could have been told with them in the long run. 

The stalker story was fun and Alexandra Spaulding wasn´t the best choice. 

The Gus parentage story was complicated because Gus had been introduced with the implication he was Miguel Santos and Selina´s son, but that quickly got squashed. I don´t think Gus as a Spaulding worked or as a Bauer (wasn´t the original ending Gus was Rita and Ed´s son or was it Alan and Rita´s?) 

I believe the period of Conboy producing Taggart and Culliton episodes was December 26, 2002-February 21, 2003. It is a very good two months. 

This episode features a sequence that I remember was fairly well regarded at the tiime. After months of being deceived her then husband Alan, Olivia learns everything that her husband has been up to, including changing her birth control pills. Agreeing to meet with Alan on a secluded island, Olivia lays all her cards on the table. The final line of the episode, I believe, typically found itself in the favorite dialogue threads on this boards for the next several years. 

35 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

@dc11786   I don't know if it was during ConWest or not but there was one Bruce Barry directed love scene where his forearm covered the only part of her we didn't see. She appeared to be naked.They were each in black underwear, earlier. They ended up on the floor. She was with Alan, who was in the hospital & Phillip came to her & he talked & then she didn't let him leave. 

Also not sure if this is anything you're talking about. I believe it also to be Bruce Barry & there's a series of them & they are very good. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkDa52LUCU8

With Beth C. you're not talking about when she was Lorelei, are you? 

ConWest was also Eden & Ben Reade nightmare, right?

That is the scene. That is Conboy with Taggart and Culliton writing. Conboy took over mid-December if I recall. I want to say the same week Marj Dusay started appearing as Alexandra again. I believe Taggert and Culliton´s last episodes were the end of February when the bomb went off in the studio. 

I was making a bad joke about Chamberlain was more effective in a supporting role post-Lorelei. In particular, there was a scene about October/November, 2003, where Lizzie was pouting because she was cast as the Nurse in ¨Romeo & Juliet¨ and Beth explains to her daughter the significance of the role and, in essence, explains where she is herself in life. There were other scenes, but this one stood out. 

Conboy and Weston had Ben working as an escort for Eden, but Eden was a Taggart creation or a Gold/Dunn/Taggart creation. I think Taggart and Culliton may have written Eden out in their last few episodes, but Weston brought her back. I thought the initial escort angle made sense. Ben was broke and most of his stories with Matt Bomer in the role had a seedy undertone to them. I thought the serial killer storyline was fine as I hadn´t watched Ben grow up so it meant little to me. I thought the sexual abuse angle made sense for who Ben had been since returning to Springfield (placing bets on Marah´s virginity, going out with an underage Marina). I just wish it hadn´t been revealed in context of a serial killer storyline. 

Nowadays, I think having a character like Ben Reade becoming an internet sex worker would be an interesting twist on an old tale, but I just don´t see any of the current shows handling that kind of story well. 

5 hours ago, chrisml said:

I'm not going to dispute that Conboy and Weston were a menace, but on an episode by episode basis, I found them somewhat compelling. I didn't stop watching the show as I did with other regimes. I also appreciated the Maryanne Carruthers (sp?) story was meant to bring the actors into one umbrella story. While I appreciated it and it had its moments, it was still one big illogical and tortured mess. The obsession with Marty West and the baseball set made no sense either. However, I'll take that regime over the show during the post-Maureen's death, Amish Reva, and San Cristobel periods (I'm assuming those three periods had different producers, but I could be wrong]. I have a vague recollection of Reva being obsessed with a painting, but I might be misremembering as I came and went as a viewer.

This is kinda where I ended up. I started watching in fall 1998 when Essensten and Harmon Brown so my standards weren´t that high. I didn´t think the Maryanne Carrouthers story was any worse than what I had seen of the Annabelle/Eli Simms story which had, at that time, a more mixed reaction than it has now. I thought Carrie Nye was deliciousy campy as Carolyn Carrouthers (I was seventeen, sue me).

I remember learning to appreciate some actors I hadn´t under Conboy. Beth Chamberlain, no longer a lead but a supporting role, gave some very emotional performances as Beth that I hadn´t seen in her previous stories where she was donning a wig and an accent and writing romance novels. I feel like David Andrew Macdonald´s Edmund also seemed to find some humanity in a character who shouldn´t have had any. 

Also, the Conboy produced Culliton/Taggart episodes were the perfect mix of style and substance and I don´t regret that very short period at all. 

Conboy´s biggest issue to me was he hadn´t worked in daytime in over 15 years. The Internet had changed the way viewers interacted with the show. When he was quoted as saying  he couldn´t understand why Bradley Cole had been fired given all the outcry, I knew that he was too far gone to really make an impact. No one wanted to lead ¨Guiding Light¨ in terms of headwriters or producers. 

Seeing what happened a few years later, I would have liked to have seen how a Gary Tomlin produced show embracing more of his ¨Days of our Lives¨ style rather than his ¨One Life to Live¨ work would have done.

In regards to the nudity, Conboy´s love scenes were steamy. I seem to recall he came in right off the bat and had a very intense encounter with Grant Alexander and Crystal Chappell where Chappell´s chest was heavily featured. The mentioned Shayne and Marina scene was noteable because Shayne was paralyzed at the time. I´m surprised the Shayne scene got them fined because, if I recall correctly, that was a December/January scene and it was Daniel Cosgrove´s butt on display in February in a shower scene with Deborah Zoe´s Eden. Mark Collier had a similar scene at ¨As the World Turns¨ around the same time. 

1 hour ago, Dan said:

I don't think there is any real juicy gossip about it. Donna just mentioned the Nursery Rhyme stalker mystery from 1998/1999 that completely trashed Holly's character but fit in with the archetype that Rauch/E&B/MADD followed that women could only be saints or one-note, conniving psychopaths. 

The Nursery Rhyme Stalker showed the ultimate flaw of the Loving Murders, the story that it was clearly being cribbed from, once the reveal comes out, what do you do with the perpetrator? Be thankful we didn´t have to watch Michelle Bauer put Holly out with a syringe of cleaning fluid. 

4 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

It sounds as thought Upton was the one to remove Arlene from the Ben/Betsy orbit.. and instead of keeping her with Tom.. decided to put her in the Ian/Ray/Bambi orbit.

To your point before, I viewed the very last scene of Arlene walking out of the room as Ray says 'he cares' as a symbol that she was finally through with Ray.  It sounded like Marcus had a multi-part story planned for Ray/Arlene starting with the November plane crash, and the Feb 1st episode signaled the start of the next chapter/part in their story.

I´m not always perfect on the time for 1976. I think Paul and Margaret Schneider handled the departure of Christopher Reeves' Ben in May/June, 1976, when he went off to prison. I believe the recasting process began right away so the plans were already in the works for Ben´s October, 1976, return. I think the hand off from the Schneiders to Gabrielle Upton is Septemeber, 1976, so it is Upton who handles the return. Early in September, 1976, Ian Russell is introduced. Initially, I believe the setup is for a Arlene/Ian/Meg triangle, but either Upton scrapped it altogether or she grew bored and dumped it at some point. 

From what I can gather, Arlene lingers in the summer of 1976. Because of her seedy past, she is having trouble holding down a job and Ray does offer her a hostess job in some place he´s connected to. Ian offers the prostitution/sugar daddy situation later in the fall. It´s not entirely clear to me when Arlene / Tom started, but I suspect it was 1977 under Upton, but it could have been earlier. In the meantime, Betsy is with Jamie. 

Upton introduces the Marriott family in January, 1977, which shifts the story for Ben almost immediately. He runs over Jim Marriott, which leads to his death. The guilt leads him to spend time with Andrew Marriott and acts as a surrogate son, while also growing closer to Mia. Mia had a secret as well; Jim had run off the night of the accident after confessing his love for Mia. This seemed to bring the two together. I can´t remember what happens with Betsy while Liz Kemp´s contract is running out because I think Ray Wise leaves in December, 1976. 

After reading your post, I also rewatched the final episode. Ray needed to go. I don´t know where they would be going next with Ray and Arlene, but I would hope a trip to divorce court was on the horizon. This was the episode leading into sweeps so I would suspect that Arlene would make her choice about her future in the next few weeks. 

Originally, I found it odd that Marcus brought back Hal Carson, but when I thought about it more, Hal was probably heavily featured in whatever material Marcus was given leading up to her hire and just assumed Hal was a long term character and only learned he was gone when she arrived. I think the Hal / Ray dynamic makes sense due to Ray´s criminal tie and, with the large contingent of lawyers, having a police officer around would have been good if they relocated Hal to Rosehill from New York City. 

***

A few more comments about the first set of 1978 summaries... 

While it was nice to see Van, Meg, and Bruce in a front burner storyline, the storyline itself it so overwrought. I think Meg and Van fighting over a man was interesting as I don´t think that had been done since Tudi Wiggins arrived. I do wish it was someone more exciting than Ron Harper´s Andrew. 

The Rick/Cal/Michael/Mary Jane stuff is just bad. It does feel like Marcus reused some of this material with Rick and Cal´s fights over Cal having a baby mirroring the conflict between Ray and Arlene (though that really isn´t an uncommon conflict). The emotional situation at the lake leading to Michael´s drowning seems to echo itself in the Betsy/Ben boating incident. 

I don´t care about Dory. 

Ben and Mia fighting over offscreen Betsy is such a non-story. I do think there was potential in Mia´s car accident as it could echo Jim Marriott´s death and it does seem to set in motion two story threads in the next set of summaries. 

Arlene is quite unlikeable given the situation with April Joy. Ray manipulates Arlene to his own means. which would be fine as long as it was played like Ray was scummy, but I´m not convinced he is. Tom´s drinking problem had potential, but it doesn´t go anywhere. 

The conversation regarding Jean Holloway's run led me down a rabbit hole. I pulled together some summaries from Lynda Hirsch and Jon-Michael Reed's columns as well as adding some clarifying relationship details to try and make sense of the final years of LOL. I will break the summaries down into three parts:

(a) January-May, 1978: we are in the thick of Gabrielle Upton's two year run. This material is not very strong. I am not sure I'd say it was as bad as Jean Holloway's run, but it is a very forgettable run of episodes highlighted by a lot of bad tropes such as a dying husband trying to pair his wife with his friend, a frontburner couple's main source of conflict coming from an offscreen former romantic interest, and a series of forgettable characters introduced by Upton in the previous year. 

(b) June-September, 1978: this is Upton's last stand and seems to be an improvement on a lot of her previous run. Maybe the goodwill on my part stems from it being sandwiched between two forgettable periods, but Upton shows some real promise here, but it may have just been a case of too little, too late.

(c) October-December, 1978: This is the transition period. In either September or October, Cathy Abbi is installed as producer with Jean Holloway joining in either late October or early November. November sees the departure of a slew of characters (probably close to ten) with several new charactes introduced in December as Jean Holloway´s story starts to materialize. 

For the sake of phone users, I´ll put it as a spoiler hoping that makes it easier to manage. If it isn´t helpful, I can always reformat.

The final years of "Love of Life" are intriguing because it is all over the place. I think tonally you are seeing previews from a producer who had experience on "Young and the Resteless." Stylistically, that comes across in the mood of the promos, at least to me. Then, you got the writing that is straight out of "When a Girl Marries" which just is such a contrast to slicker look of the promos. 

As I am piecing together the Jon-Michael Reed and Lynda Hirsch summaries, something that is standing out is there are some significant set changes when Cathy Abbi came on. Bruce accepts the position as a professor at Rosehill College and moves into Timothy McCauley's old house, which is a new set. A few weeks later Ray buys a new house for Arlene. Mind you, the disco was introduced just prior to Abbi's arrival (August, 1978) and Elliot and Betsy arrived in July, 1978, so they needed a place to stay. Add in the cast turnover, it is a pretty massive overhaul. I know she was still at "Days of our Lives," but it would have been interesting to see how things would have shaken out had Ann Marcus arrived in November, 1978, rather than May, 1979. I think cancellation would have been hard to avoid, but creatively I wonder where things would have gone.

I am pretty positive it is Ray and Arlene Slater in the shower. The dude definitely is Lloyd Battista and the actress playing Arlene seemed to dye her hair a lot in those last few years. That final puffy dark hair look at the end is a lot. 

3 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I wish Halloway's stint was available...just to see how these tales looked on screen.

The Bambi Brewster tale sounds like a bad attempt at combining a Stella Dallas type of story with a C movie film noir plotline

And chaperoned dates???

@dc11786If I could guess who to write off, I think Bambi/Tony could possibly have gotten married and moved close to where his son was.

I also think Mia could have been written off once the trial was resolved..as well as Elliot perhaps.

And I would have found a way to bring Arlene back into the Ben/Betsy orbit...or even become a complication for Tom/Lianne.  Arlene had pasts with Ben and Tom...and she could be an effective thorn in Betsy's side...since both her love and brother were taking care of Arlene.

Would have been an effective use of history.  Think how Guiding Light mined the Ed/Holly connection which drove Maureen/Roger crazy....the same thing could have happened with Arlene in terms of Tom and Ben.

I'm starting to pull the weekly summaries for 1978 for "Love of Life" to get a sense of the show before Holloway and Abbi arrive. I had forgotten that Upton's final months were actually building to something interesting (not sure if it was sustainable). Anyway, reviews of Holloway's work in print typically have accused her of writing for radio, which she had. I'm not even sure what the point of the search was. 

I think Ben and Betsy needed a new direction after all the high melodrama. With Meg on her way out, I would have shifted Mia as a leg in the Tom/Lianne story with having Lianne involved in a professional / quasi romantic relationship with Andrew Marriott. With Mia's brother Wes setting out to pursue Lianne's sister Kelly, I think having a Tom / Mia connection might have been worth pursuing as it would have allowed more Lianne / Mia conflict and more Betsy/Mia conflict. I also would have brought back Andy Marriott as another leg in the younger set triangle. 

I don't think Tony or Bambi had more story left in them. Eliot as the big bad would work for me. I wouldn't even be against somehow moving him towards Amy Russell as this sorta toxic power couple who would have thrived in the 1980s especially if Amy's voice of reason love interest was someone like Alan Sterling.

I would have dumped Hal Carson, the cop who wanted Arlene. I think having Arlene wanting to raise her children independently would have been more compelling in the long run. Though, I would have done the custody fight and have had Ray show up in the courtroom with his surprise new wife, a new Meg.  

36 minutes ago, Khan said:

Question for longtime LOL fans: what was the deal with the Asian hitwoman?  In one of the very few LOL-related promos that I have viewed on YT, there was/is an Asian hitwoman who apparently has been contracted to kill one of the men in Rosehill.  Who was her target, and did she succeed?

I think you are mixing up two of the promos. In one of the promos, Arlene and Ray are nearly killed by a glass of poisoned wine, which a hotel maid decided to drink instead. This was from the Bambi Brewster story, probably in February/March, 1979, when Ray is trying to find Bambi's father. In the other promo, Bambi and Tony are being all lovey dovey and the mystery Asian woman threatens their happiness. She wasn't, however, a hitwoman. That promo I think was from September, 1979, but I could be wrong. 

The woman was Kim Soo Ling. She had been a nurse during the Vietnam War and had been Tony Alfonso's lover. Tony was a chef at one of the establishments in Rosehill and had become involved with Bambi Brewster. When Bambi and Tony grew closer, Kim arrived in town with a secret, she had had Tony's child and given it up for adoption. She needed Tony's help in getting back in contact with, or getting custody of the child. Kim ended up workign at Rosehill Hospital as a nurse's aide or as a nurse. She and Tony tracked down their son, Tran, to his adopted family in California. I believe the adopted mother was sick and didn't have long to live. Kim and Tony agreed to let Tran stay with his adopted family in the final weeks of the show. I believe Irene Yah Ling Sun played Kim from 1979-1980.

33 minutes ago, Vee said:

I never understood why they made Phillip into the Big Bad both in his exit and then offscreen, had him invisibly stalking his family and friends for several years as they struggled to get GA back, etc. and then when he does show up he is mostly fine! Very little is mentioned of his psychotic break or all the crazy stuff he's pulled both before and after his 'death!' Except for one thing, when he literally throws that creep Grady off a cliff and no one ever finds out! They just go back to more folk-rock scenes of Phillip strolllng the dilapidated streets and bonding with people! WTF?!

I understood why Phillip was made the big bad in his exit... to facilitate the murder mystery plot. You couldn't have nice guy Phillip just being killed off without having a list of suspects. Weston and Conboy had Phillip go off the deep end and committed him to Ravenwood. During that time, Olivia had returned to Springfield after leaving town (to facilitate Chappell's maternity leave) revealing that her baby had died. We quickly learned she was simply hiding the child to keep her safe from the Spauldings (Lizzie had manufactured a fall for Olivia around August, 2003). Olivia married Phillip and moved into the Spaulding mansion once it was revealed Emma was alive. I remember one of the conditions was that Alexandra had to live in the potting shed. Anyway, Philip was released from Ravenwood in April, 2004, and he set out to get revenge against Olivia. The Olivia/Phillip material from April - July, 2004, was incredibly strong (in my opinion). Phillip was certainly making Olivia's life hell, but she was playing her long game as well. 

It was Kriezman who just leaned into it with the whole eminent domain stuff for the Coopers and then deciding he was going to take a bunch of kids with him when he left town. Kriezman had this way of deconstructing characters, but making no effort to rebuild them; I had very real issues with the way they handled Tammy once they decided Tammy/Jonathan were going to be more than just a part of Jonathan's revenge plot. 

Phillip in the shadows over the next few years was dumb. I kept trying to get back into the show in those years (2005-2007), but always something stupid would happen. I remember tuning in for Ross' death and learning that Phillip and Rick were apart of it and tuning out again. 

12 hours ago, Khan said:

As for EP, what if CBSD had been able to snag Jorn Winther to replace Cathy Abbi before he began work at AMC?

I'd considered Jorn Winther because of what I know he did for "Generations" and some of the influence I can see on the later half of "Rituals." Winther and Raymond Goldstone (Marcus' brother) worked together for several months on "Rituals" with the interracial romance between rich girl Julia Field and cop Lucky Washington, the son of the family maid as well as a story about a group of white supremacists who kidnapped C.J. Field's son Mark because the group was anti-semitic (C.J. was Jewish). At the very least, Jorn Winther's show would have been a bit more diverse, which it desperately needed. 

8 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

The episodes/scenes that were uploaded on YT awhile back from the final week or so of the show really highlights that the show was in transition.

Perhaps because of the timeslot change, Marcus was brought on in order to infuse the show with more youthful/modern characters/stories.  You could have tell what was 1979/80 modern and what was still kind of stuck in the late 70s rut.

The Betsy/Ben/Mia/Eliot (I think that was his name) seemed very melodramatic/old fashion while the Arlene story seemed right out of the 40s.  You contrast that with Amy/Lianne/Kelly as more modern vibrant women of 1979/80... and then you have Bambi that I didn't see much of.. but obviously Marcus found her interesting enough to keep on.

The thing about the final episode that intrigued me was the Arlene story.. because that last scene with her walking out of the room while her d bag husband begs her to stay gave me hope that maybe Marcus was going to finally give Arlene some dignity/strength after the abuse she had from Ben and then her current louse of a husband.

I can see what you are saying about the show being in transition. I think there were definitely a lot of moving parts that hadn't completely settled. The true younger set was one area of development Marcus hadn't gotten to a place she was happy with. Originally, Marcus took Amy Niles' Gina Gaspero, Ray's kid sister, and paired her up with Marcus' creation Wes Osbourne, III, who was Mia's younger brother. Gina and Wes had a summer story where Wes deflowered her, Gina thought she might be pregnant, and then she had a bad trip after consuming a pot brownie at a party with Christy Bringham (Leah Ayres). Gina was dumped in September and Wes was shipped off to school (I suspect Woody Brown took a leave to film the "Flamingo Road" telefilm). Wes only returned in November after dropping out of school and went to work at the disco. Kelly Wilson was added in January, 1980, and Cheryl I think was introduced in the final week. 

The Ben / Betsy story was definitely melodramatic. Under Holloway, the story was rather hookey. Betsy was divorcing Eliot and starting to date Ben, but, in order to secure custody, all of their dates had to be chaperoned by Timothy MacCauley. Holloway's work is really bad. Marcus added the political campaign which gave Eliot Lang additional motivation to keep his marriage to Betsy in tact. The rape added the child, which was a complication that Ben was really struggling to get over (that Eliot and Betsy would be tied together by a child). The boating accident set in motion by Mia's duiplicitious phone call and all the events that followed certainly sound a bit high drama. I don't mind this sort of material as long as the scripts are strong, but I don't get that sense from what I've seen. 

Marcus leaned into the melodrama though. I believe during Meg's paralysis story the reason that Lianne performed Meg's surgery, despite Lianne being under suspension or only being an intern, was because the surgeon had a heart attack while in the operating room. 

Arlene and Ray's stuff just doesn't work for me in any incarnation. I think initially they are just the defacto parents for Gina during the summer plot; Marcus shipped the parents off to Italy for a vacation in June, 1979. Later, Hal Carson (the cop from the Des Moines Bambi Brewster paternity plot) was brought to Rosehill as a spoiler for Ray and Arlene. They were in the plane crash (which happened the same month as the boating accident) which left Ray to think they had conceived the baby during their time in the woods, even though Arlene knew she was pregnant prior to this. 

Why the show kept Arlene out of Ben's orbit is a mystery to me.

5 hours ago, Khan said:

Ah, the strange, sad case of one Bambi Brewster, lol.

I do not know much about the character or her storyline - all that I know, I have gleaned from reading about her on message boards - but she might be a classic, textbook example of a minor/supporting character who becomes a lead literally overnight.  In fact, I once joked that the show should have been renamed LOVE OF BAMBI.

I'm not even sure when Bambi first appeared. I think it was some time early in 1978 when Gabrielle Upton was writing, but, of course, Jean Holloway went and made the question of her paternity a major mystery in Des Moines, Iowa, with a bunch of imposters and slick figures trying to keep the mystery going for God knows what reason. 

As I recall, I don't think Ann Marcus dumped any contact player when she arrived (Tom Crawford was recast, but I think Weber's contract was up and he wasn't renewing). Ann McCarty lucked out because Marcus was finally allowed to tell her reuniting with a child abandoned during the Vietnam War story she had been trying to tell for the past five or so years (originally, it was pitched for a returned Mia Elliot on LIAMST and later for Chris Kositchek on DOOL). 

The Vietnam story ended the last week of the show. I'd be curious if Marcus would have kept Bambi and Tony on or married them off and shipped them out. 

12 hours ago, Khan said:

I agree 100%, @Paul Raven!

TC could have featured descendants from one of NYC's oldest and wealthiest families, along with a brash billionaire (...yes, like whatshisname...) who represents "new money" that the other family looks down their noses at.  And then there also could have been an ethnic, blue-collar family - with ties both to law enforcement, like the Reagans on "Blue Bloods," and to organized crime in the city - who, along with the other family, becomes involved in various ways with the LOVING transplants at the Greene Street building.

TC could have had a traditional set-up for a soap, just with a twist on its' execution that would have made it feel fresh and different at the same time.

I don't disagree and, the worst part is, those elements had already been embedded into the show. The Soleitos had Tony the cop and then Gino, Carla, and Joey with the mob connections. While the Chase family may have been new money than old money, the class of the media giants verse celebrity musician Nick Rivers could have easily been shaped up. I easily would have given Jared two children from a previous marriage (a son and a daughter) which would have added a bit more conflict to the story. I also think I stated before that I felt that some of the initial conflict should have come from the longtime tenants having to deal with the transplants because they had pushed others out. 

I would have beefed up what was there. While I'm no fan of Danny Roberts and think the approach to the Jocelyn story was salacious at best, I think exploring the Roberts clan a bit more would have been worthwhile. Jocelyn and Danny's father seemed much more white collar middle class than I expected. I think they could have had him owning a construction company, which would have given him some possibilities for business with Sydney bedding Danny and Jocelyn handling the legal stuff for the ad agency. 

2 hours ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

I understood what your point was, completely. As soap fans we find it frustrating to churn through a lot of story elements & then POOF the original situation vanishes & it's like Dorothy back home in Kansas!  

I have given you what my understanding of the situation was from BTS information at the time. Naturally, you can credit it or not. At the time I lived in Brooklyn & was close to the Digest GL Editor & one of the HWs & actors & other soap journos. I mention that only to give a source for BTS information. Otherwise it seems to come out of the blue. I also have not checked episode counts but I believe that KZ & GA were both operating with guarantees of 4. I'm sure RN had to, also, but mostly we just considered that he had to be KZ's scene partner as opposed to having story of his own. I know people here tend to think of Harley as eating a lot of front burner. But, Phillip had children with Beth, with Harley & Spalding doings, always. Anyway, you might consider it a theory.  

To me, the Phillip murder story was an attempt to replicate some of what ¨Days of our Lives" had done when Reilly returned in 2003 with the serial killer story and brought them all back in 2004. Kill off some veterans (or in GL´s case, one veteran) save some money and bring them back later on. The problem was Grant Alexander wasn´t interested in coming back. You can´t tell a story about a character not being dead and not bring the character back. That is just poor storytelling. Now, I don´t know who´s final decision it was, but the show should have recasted Phillip if the show was so interested in having him come back from the dead.

During this time, Wheeler didn´t seem big on recasting characters who had already been appearing under her (the only exceptions I can think of are Mandy Bruno as Kit Paquin had just been hired by Conboy when Wheeler started, Nicole Forrester because Laura Wright´s departure was unexpected, and Jeff Branson as Shayne who had been offscreen for several years at that point.)

I was pretty good at following GL online media at the time through here and the GLBuzz forum so I am pretty well versed on the BTS stuff at the time. 

35 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

The point was to give other players some time on the front burner. Typically the front burner was used up by Reva & by Phillip. Personally I thought it was great that Grant did it & also that it was temp & not perm. And probably as an actor he worked on something else while he was gone. Actors like that. And, jobs on soaps used to afford that kind of variety to the hired help. 

I don´t think Grant Alexander was happy with being killed off, even if it was temporary. The show clearly wanted him back for most of next few years. I don´t think bringing him back in 2009 was a bad idea. My bone of contention was spending nearly nine months on a murder mystery in 2004-2005 where it turns out that the character was never dead to begin with and the character wasn´t coming back was a waste of time and energy. I liked Harley, but that story did me in. The trial, the prison stint, the GusH on the run... it was too much. 

Granted, I haven´t looked at episode counts, but Phillip was never guzzling story the way Reva, Richard/Cassie, and Danny/Michelle did.  If anything, all Phillip´s departure did was to elevate Harley, which did no one any favors. 

@KhanI would hope they would keep Ann Marcus, but I would probably want to hire some subwriters to improve the scripts. The story seems strong, but the episodes I´ve seen don´t always draw me in as much I would like. I would probably try to get someone like Frank Salsibury. 

If they did replace Marcus, I would probably want Rick Edelstein (based on his work on ¨How to Survive a Marraige¨) or Jane Avery (based on her work with her ex-husband Ira on ¨Secret Storm¨). My final consideration would be A.J. Russell (based on his work on ¨Somerset¨). 

For EP, I was thinking Jackie Babbin, but she wouldn´t have done ¨All My Children¨ yet so her style might be different if she hadn´t worked on that show first. Babbin would have still been an ABC executive but I believe would have produced some nighttime work. 

Michael Dempsey, like most of Wheeler´s hires, was just generic. I don´t think he was a bad actor, but I could never really tell based on what I saw. I remember when they brought him back I was excited because it looked like they might be actually attempting to revitalize the Spauldings. There was some sort of boardroom battle (again) with Beth vying for CEO because she wanted to protect her children´s legacy. I believe Mary Kay Adams was even dragged in for an episode for the vote. It may have been around this time that Beth married Alan in Ravenwood (that was the name of the psychiatric hospital, correct?). 

I had stopped watching several months earlier when it was clear this was now the Harley show and when it was revealed Phillip was still alive (all that story for months on end for nothing). Anyway, I popped back in and tuned quickly back out when they voted Harley as CEO out of nowhere over Beth. That was all I needed to know. I assumed that, like everything else in that era, Alan Michael´s return would have something to do with Harley as they had been married once similar to Robert Bogue´s Mallet. 

Dempsey was paired with the equally unmemorable Mandy Bruno´s Marina, who would have been better off paired with Tom Pelphrey´s Jonathan because maybe he could have lit a spark in her performance. 

On 12/17/2023 at 9:04 PM, Khan said:

I wonder if TC took that approach deliberately in order to avoid looking like another hoary old soap opera and instead look hip and contemporary.

Most likely. 

At times, I feel like episodes of ¨The City" come off as an American attempt at a British style soap opera, which has, to me at least, always felt like it has a looser story style than the American soaps or at least incorporates more interaction that isn´t always at the heart of the show´s plot. I don´t always get the appeal of British soaps so I can sometimes give ¨The City"  a pass, but it mostly just feels disjointed and attempting to mimick the trashy talk shows of the era rather than soap opera. 

On 12/18/2023 at 11:44 AM, Khan said:

In the end, I wonder if it was worth spinning off LOVING into TC at all, just because LOVING always had been a low-rated show with not much of a following outside of its' core audience.  Maybe Agnes Nixon, James Harmon Brown and Barbara Esensten would have been better off developing a brand-new soap that had no ties to LOVING whatsoever.

The thing is though it basically is a continuation rather than a spinoff, right? Like ¨Loving¨ didn´t keep going while ¨The City¨ was on the air. The actors contracts with the show weren´t renegotiated, as far as I know, when ¨The City¨ began. 

I think less people should have moved to ¨The City." Having everyone move at once was silly and limited the story potential. 

On 12/18/2023 at 6:49 PM, chrisml said:

I think a lot of The City's problems go back to what a lot of people pointed out. There was no compelling reason to tune in if you were a viewer of LOVING. I don't know why they didn't carry the murders story over to The City. That way viewers have the ability to get invested in the new characters at the same the writers are finishing the Loving murders. When the new storylines didn't work, they resorted to another murder storyline anyway. 

I hear what people are saying, but I also think back to the conversations about how ¨Texas¨ struggled because so much of the story started on ¨Another World.¨ There is so little story in the opening episodes of ¨The City" and the characters aren´t developed enough to be compelling to have conversations carry the episodes. 

On 12/18/2023 at 9:22 PM, chrisml said:

I think she is an underrated actress, but I think they miscalculated in thinking Morgan Fairchild was a big draw for soap viewers (new or old). If she had been integrated into the last months of LOVING, it might have been ok, but the writers didn't seem to know what to do with her. And they resorted to the old sexist chestnut of rape to give a strong female character a storyline. IT feels like they got excited about hiring her and penned her entrance into the show, but didn't have any longterm plans for her after the big entrance. That's the biggest problem with the CITY. It felt like a collection of scenes that rarely came together into a cohesive unit. The sets and the direction were wonderful, but if the story isn't there, what difference does it make? Except for the one murder plot, I have no memory of any longterm story on the show.

I´d be curious to know when it was decided to have Jared rape Sydney. Joel Fabani is SOOO cringey. It seems like it is just another reason to have Jared killed off a month or so later. That story also comes at a point where the show is just dropping things left and right. The build of stories is so bad. April is mostly the Jocelyn is a hooker because her father took her to get raped by his friends and Richard and Zoey falling in love while Zoey learns that Nick is her dad. The May stories are mostly the rape (to a lesser extent), Jared´s deisre to take over the building to get the gold, and the Azure C. revelation. Things just seem to come and go without the necessary build.  

On 12/18/2023 at 11:27 PM, Khan said:

Furthermore, as I've said before, I think TC made a concerted effort in the beginning to steer away from telling the sort of big, melodramatic stories that we had become accustomed to seeing on soaps - to be "anti-story," in a sense.  I think that makes a sense if you want your show to be seen as a cutting-edge soap for a new generation.  But even if you don't want the kinds of stories that you could watch on your grandmother's old soap opera, you still need something that will keep people glued to their screens other than jaw-dropping sets and fantastic camera work and editing.  You also need strong characters with strong relationships that, in turn, will generate strong stories.

I also agree, @chrisml, that they might have miscalculated Morgan Fairchild's appeal in getting her to agree to star on TC.  Obviously, if you lived through the '80's, or if you watched SFT BITD, or even if you saw her play Sandra Bernhard's lesbian lover on "Roseanne," then you know who she is.  But I don't know whether that appeal carried over at all into the next decade.  If TPTB wanted a "name" to headline TC's cast, then they either should have swung a bit higher - maybe gone for someone like Jaclyn Smith*? - or, as I suggested eons ago, they should have (done the unthinkable and) spun off Erica Kane/Susan Lucci (with the provision, of course, that she still could appear on AMC occasionally, and that she could return full-time to AMC should TC ever be cancelled...which it was).

I will remain adamant that Sydney/Morgan Fairchild wasn´t the issue lol This isn´t a case of Beverly McKinsey being asked to play a watered down version of her bitch character to carry off a new show. Sydney as the landlord was suppose to be the Amanda Woodard of ¨The City,¨ but owning the building wasn´t enough. Sydney wasn´t developed enough for any actress to make her work. There was enough scraps that a decent writer could have made it work, but I think Tracy ended up being a better fit because the character was pre-fab and didn´t need to be developed. 

On 12/19/2023 at 12:55 AM, Khan said:

It's been so long that, unfortunately, I can't recall the exact chain of events anymore, but was TC developed and announced and MF hired before LOVING actually went off the air?  If so, then I think they had ample opportunities to have MF/Sydney appear on the former show.  For example, they could have had pop in briefly as a former dalliance of Clay's from way back, who runs into him again while on business in Corinth and has another romp in the sheets with him before his untimely demise.  Maybe Alex would have considered her a prime suspect until the next murder occurs, which lets Sydney off the hook, but establishes animosity between them.  I mean, anything that could have made the audience sit up, take notice and say, "Hey, I gotta start watchin' the new show when this is over, just so I could see what else this chick might be up to!".

The cancellation of ¨Loving¨ coincided with the announcement of the rebranding. I think Fairchild´s hiring may have been slightly later. 

I don´t think Harmon Brown and Essensten had the capacity to develop the new version of the show and end the old one at the same time.