dc11786
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Posts posted by dc11786
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FOX tried to launch a syndicated set of telenovelas in the early 1990s. "Acapulco Bay" I believe was the first one. The others were "The Guilt" with George Hamilton in a guest role and "Forever,"which was a restaging of "La Madrastra." I think there was another one that went to the pilot stage "Crystal Empire," but I don't think it was ever produced as a series. These all aired in the 1995-1996 season if I remember correctly.
I actually used a clip from "Acapulco Bay" this past winter with my middle schoolers. We were reading a story by Sandra Cisneros were the allusions to novellas help to track the time period the scene is taking place in. I showed the clip when Tony comes back from the dead in from "Acapulco Bay" and when he comes back in "Tu o Nadie." My 8th graders weren't super impresssed with the acting on AB lol
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On 3/10/2024 at 6:32 PM, j swift said:
When Brad Maule initially assumed the role of Tony, Soap Opera Digest featured two stories about the production's inclination to dismiss him, contemplating either eliminating the character or recasting it. This inclination is understandable, given that Tony's backstory, as well as his later affair with Carly, demands an actor who exudes sexual allure, a trait not particularly prominent in Mr. Maule's repertoire. Evidently, the character evolved over time to align more closely with the actor's strengths. However, one can't help but speculate whether a more roguish Tony would have prolonged Rita's presence on the show. With Frisco's departure and the subsequent shift in creative direction under Monty, Rita's exit became almost inevitable. Yet, Rita possessed significant potential, and the intriguing sibling rivalry between Frisco and Tony seemed to fade into obscurity.
Funny. Five or so years ago, I would definitely agree with you regarding Brad Maule's sexual allure, but I don't today. I think he is incredibly sexy, but maybe not in the playboy cad who gets all the nurses into bed kind of way. Rather he is the hot dad next door who is just the right mix of cheeky and caring that I could see women like Carly and Lucy being drawn not just to the doctor husband's salary but the in control protective father figure. Early 1990s (at the very least) Tony Jones is a DILF. And this will be a hot take, but I'd take Tony over Frisco.
Regarding Rita's viability, I do think Palumbo's plan was a Rita/Tony pairing. Rita arrives just as Cheryl Stansbury is about to discover that Lucas is her son and this conflict would most likely have caused Tony and Bobbie's marriage to his a snag and Tony would have landed in Rita's arms. This should, in turn, have created professional animosity between Bobbie and Rita, both nurses. To keep things fun, I probably would have had Rita befriend Lucy, who would need medical help to continue to play off Scotty's baby as Alan's. And a Rita/Lucy partnership would have just given Bobbie oodles to cluck about to Felicia, Simone, and anyone else who popped over to the Brownstone.
On 3/10/2024 at 11:33 PM, carolineg said:Jason is pretty dense. The red flags are everywhere with Karen lol.
I wouldn't say Brenda lacks humanity, but lacks depth and direction in early episodes. VM is also very green as an actress.
I think WN would have been great as Bill
Maybe I should have said Brenda lacks vulnerability. She is harsh and rough around the edges 24/7. Even with Jagger I don't get the sense she lets her guard down enough (January-April 1993). There is one scene with Jagger where she talks about her miserable childhood when she has joined Jagger at the cabin in the woods where he is living after leaving Port Charles. Every other moment I find incredibly hard to connect with her. Even Tiffany at her most toxic is consistently friendly with Holly and supportive of her. I think Levinson missed the boat by not allowing Brenda to help Robin more.
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@j swift Every Bible reads different that I've seen. Most tend to lean into a section on characters and then a separate section revolving around story. Some writers go for a different approach.
James Elward for "The Young Marrieds" proposed an extensive canvas full of many underdeveloped characters but rich in action driven plot most of which was not used on the actual series. In his revised bible, he goes the approach of character biographies for the whittled down cast which deemphasizes action and focuses on the emotional state as it relates to their personal history. From what I've seen online of Irna Phillips' bibles, she tends to lean into the feeling of the show and the essence so I suspect Elward's revised bible was written after his meeting with Irna Philips.
I've only seen about half of the "Santa Barbara" Bible which detailed the story. A separate section detailed character backstories.
Tony Holland's Bible for "Little England" or whatever "Eldorado" was originally titled was based on characters biographies that detailed backstory (I believe), current story, and at least one tidbit that could be used to fuel later stories.
Palumbo's bible for "Rituals" is pretty standard. It is noteable to me that there is an emphasis on cross promotion just like the "Santa Barbara" Bible. Nixon also considered building up to the Summer Olympics preemption in her Bible.
Nixon's Bible for "Love," the original title of "Loving," doesn't really examine much outside the three story structure (Mike's story, Jack/Lily's story, and Merrill's story) to the point that characters are left underdeveloped unless they are critical to telling story in the opening set of stories.
Sussman's approach is wildly different and presents a character or character set biography framed in a snapshot of their current story. For example, the introduction to Rebecca Whitmore's biography describes in detail the first scene where Rebecca goes to visit the Whitmore estate on her way to see Hugh Gardner and finds the Hassan family being evicted by the bank. Then, we get the story.
Sussman has 10 chapters to her Bible which ends with a proposed story called "The Party" which I believe is the housewarming party when the Marshalls purchase the old Whitmore estate. I haven't read it yet, but I suspect this is the original version of the story that becomes the racism story. In this version, instead of racists bombing the Whitmore estate there appears that there will be an attack by Mr. Hassan, the previous owner of the Whitmore estate.
What I have is a mixed of digital and print. I am terrible about keeping things organized but I am thinking my next project will have to be digitalization.
One things that across the board I see is that Bible rarely reflect what happens onscreen in that there are significant directional changes in terms of character and story. Sometimes things play out better on paper and sometimes they play out better on screen. They also tend to be ambitious and things are set to be cut as a result so stories on impotence ("Loving"), Alzheimer's Disease, the issues facing the trans community ("Generations"), child abuse ("Rituals"), and mental health issues ("Santa Barbara") get cut by the network or watered down immensely.
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The first three (of ten) sections of the Bible cover Rebecca Simpson Whitmore's history, Henry Marshall & Ruth Potter Marshall's history, and the story between the two at the start. I will give a little bit of info from each section and then breaking the story down into three threads: 1) Rebecca's quest for partnership involving her romantic involvement with British attorney Lloyd Bradfield, 2) the business machinations involving the nationalization of Marshall's ice cream and 3) the purchase of the Whitmore estate.
Rebecca's biography recounts the story of her parents' generation in slim detail, enough to explain why the dynamics in the Peter and Rebecca marriage led to where it was. Thomas and Nora Simpson had two children, Thomas Jr. and Rebecca. Thomas served in World War II and died leaving the Senior without a male heir. When Rebecca married Peter after a brief courtship, Thomas immediately groomed Peter as his successor, but Peter wasn't built for business (despite his desire). When Thomas dies, Peter makes many bad deals in the Simpson construction and development business, he makes bad investments in the market, and also gambles too much.
By the point things have gotten back, Peter has two nearly grown children. Peter is appearing more and more aloof. Rebecca is fairly desperate to revive her marriage and seduces her husband which is how she ends up pregnant with the much younger Stephanie, who J.D. later nicknames Sam. The baby seems to keep a coolness to the Whitmore marriage, but the farther Peter declines in his fortune (including mortgaging the house), the more things fall apart. Peter just disappears one day during a snowstorm never to return.
Rebecca picks up the pieces and sells the house because they could either keep their home or nothing else. Rebecca decides to move to a less posh neighborhood and work her way back up by becoming an attorney. Rebecca hasn't been romantically involved with any other man since Peter.
Meanwhile, Henry Marshall grew up the son of Preston and Etta Marshall who had moved North from the South for better economic opportunities. Etta found work immediately and Preston eventually was able to obtain work at a factory. Henry was a baseball star in high school who's dreams were eventually disrupted when his friends roped him into a situation selling stolen goods. Henry spent time in jail for a crime he had been unaware he was committing. After a brief stint in jail, he got out and wandered a bit before meeting Ruth Potter.
Ruth's mother Vivian Potter had divorced her daughters' father and went to work for Nora Simpson as live-in help after having worked for many years as a servant in many different North Shore homes. Nora was known as a terse boss who would often terminate her servants employment at will. Vivian managed to stay on and Nora got sick and died leaving Vivian to work for Rebecca, who elected to keep her on. Ruth and her sister had been raised by Vivian's sister after the divorce while Vivian had spent time raising Rebecca's children until Nora died and Rebecca allowed Vivian to bring her daughters' to live with her in the Simpson/Whitmore home.
Ruth grew up envious of Laura Whitmore, who was two years her junior. Ruth wanted to live the good life and the Bible even states that Ruth wanted to be white. Ruth became involved with Henry and became pregnant before marriage with Chantal. Ruth considered an abortion, but Vivian demanded the two marry. Ruth and Henry went off to live before Ruth moved back to the Whitmore home with Chantal where she finished high school with Laura. There was a brief romantic interest in Greg Cooper, a lower income white classmate who loved and was spurned (only because she didn't know) by Laura.
Ruth helped Henry build the business which included three to four locations by the start of the series including a North Shore location catering to the white clientele. Ruth was very much about moving up and gaining social status. Henry strived to eventually own his own baseball team.
This covers the bigger points of the characters' histories. Chantal was always the oldest, but was Henry's child. Sam's age gap was due to Rebecca's desire to save her marriage. The Ruth/Greg attraction was clearly appropriated later on for the Peter/Ruth affair which is a bit juicier but also makes Peter look like a creep. The dynamic with Vivian raising Rebecca's children and not her own really puts Ruth's resentment in a different light for me. I don't know if that made it to air, but it makes Ruth's emotional state much more sympathetic.
In terms of story, Rebecca's attempt to rise at the law firm plays out pretty much the same way. Rebecca wants partnership, her boss pushes her to date Lloyd Bradfield to secure a contract with a large British law firm, and Rebecca ends up losing out on a partnership. A minor story change was that Rebecca's colleague at the firm was Chris Michaelson in the Bible. On air, his name was Chris Mendoza. Also, the tailend of the story sees Rebecca going with Lloyd on a vacation to London where she was going to be captured in the society pages and be spotted by Peter Whitmore, who was going to be vacationing with his Italian second wife Francesca. This clearly didn't happen.
The business story plays out significantly differently than what plays on air. Joel arranges the meeting between Martin and Henry, but Martin is suppose to be a part of a series of investors involved in the project (none named). Ruth was going to be consulted on all business matters as she had developed a real mind for business and a lonely Martin (in the midst from divorcing his plot point wife Doreen) would become attracted to her. Martin and Henry were to become professional and romantic rivals (unknown to Henry on both counts) as Martin continued to undermine Henry in order to be top dog in the business world.
Martin and Henry would still argue over the quality of ingredients and the first quarter figures would show that Henry was right. Later, Martin was going to arrange new facilities in order to ensure that Henry would default on the rent and have to sell Marshall Ice Cream to Martin.
A bigger moment in the story was going to be Martin's attempt to discredit Henry by bringing him to an Ivy League business dinner where Henry was suppose to be out of place, but people would be intrigued by the man's self-made success. Also, Martin would be upset when his role in Marshall's Ice Cream going national was ignored by a business magazine.
Rebecca was to hold the patent rights to the ice cream and was involved in handling some of the legal papers about the start up of the company.
In the meantime, Martin was going to romance Ruth, who was only going along with the meals in order to try to smooth over the rough edges in the relationship between Martin and Henry. Ruth doesn't appear to be romantically interested in Martin, but they would share a kiss.
On the actual show, I don't think the Martin-Ruth romance was attempted at all. There were some attempts at Martin-Chantal, but that didn't go anywhere. The dinner scene never happened. The factory space was an issue, but it played out very differently with Henry not wanting the factory to leave the south side because it would put people out of work. This issue was resolved in a pool game where Henry hustled Martin. I believe Martin went behind Henry's back and changed the ingredients in the ice cream which led to more issues.
In the final thread of the initial story, Ruth was going to be interested in the house, but it would be bought by Henry for Ruth probably to keep her from leaving him (in his mind) from Martin, who would also be interested in purchasing the Whitmore estate. A third party was also interested in the purchase, Mr. Hassan, who had been kicked out in the first episode. Ruth was going to plan a big housewarming party and Mr. Hassan seems set to destroy the event with many people present.
I'll share more as I continue to make my way through it.
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@Vee I am at the start of the Evan Jerome, Jr./Edge Jackson stuff. Evan and Anna meet pretty quickly. Scotty finds "Evan" in Berlin working as an aspiring music video director (I believe Hardy had a background in musical theatre and Palumbo may have been Judy Garland's manager at one point). Scotty has lured Edge back to Port Charles to collect the diamonds that belonged to Victor Jerome, who had died the previous year in an attempted sexual tryst with Lucy. Lucy wanted to claim the diamonds as her own because they were worth millions. Scotty, Tracy, and Larry are working together to get a Jerome heir to claim them so that Lucy will suffer. Once in Port Charles, Edge finds his way to a dance studio on the Port Charles University's campus where Anna had taken Robin for an audition. Anna and Edge meet at the studio.
What's not incredibly clear to me is whether or not Edge was suppose to be an imposter or not from the get go. The summaries suggest that Edge might have been lying (initially) to cut down on the ties to the Jeromes as part of his attempts to seduce Anna, but I will have to see how that plays out.
Anna's intentions with Edge are more probably less amorous. In the episodes proceeding, Anna and Robin have been fighting about everything and Frisco suggests that Anna has gotten too old and out of touch with youth culture, said the singing WSB agent with daddy issues who has recently become a father. Anna's interest in Edge would seem to be to bridge the cultural divide between herself and her daughter, but Edge definitely seems drawn to Anna.
I don't think the intention was for Edge to be a true imposter, but Monty probably changed it. Duke Lavery had been accused of murdering Evan Jerome, Sr., but it was actually his half-sister Camellia. I believe Jeanne Glynn was in the co-headwriter role at the time. I suspect she or Palumbo may have wanted to revisit the Duke angle in Evan's history.
On another topic, Rita Lloyd Jones is being set up for arrival. Rita was Andrew Jones' second wife who had slept with Andrew, and I believe Tony, when the mother Cindy was dying of an illness. The birth of Maxie has brought about a bunch of unresolved animosity on Frisco's part involving his father and Rita's arrival issure to escalate it. What is interesting is that Rita's introduction is as a mystery woman saving clippings of Frisco. It is an interesting misdirection because it would seem like Rita is a former lover of Frisco's, not his stepmother.
The contaminated water story has started. The condo complex mystery starts right after the Davis divorce as Monica agrees to buy the townhouse and allow Meg and Dawn stay there. Meg immediately mentions the water issues. What doesn't make sense is that Meg and Harrison are living there for months but haven't gotten sick, but soon several people will even though it has already been revealed that the construction company tapped into a contaminated water source because it was cheaper than the city sewer line. Norman Snow is now playing Broxton, the Jerome family attorney.
Also @slick jones, there is a recreated flashback (I believe) of Victor Jerome in 1990 with the original actor in the role. Also, Frankie's full name is Francisco Greco if you didn't already catch it.
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7 hours ago, Vee said:
Terry Brock?? There's a pairing. Thanks again for all you do.
The Terry/Larry stuff is very low key and happens just as Terry is about to leave town.
All this discussion got me back into November, 1990. Tracy clearly has no romantic interest in Larry at this point, but Larry definitely pines for Tracy. This may have been an ongoing thing, but Larry garners little interest from me.
And in regards to the last post, I forgot to add that Monica and Alan divorce in March/April, 1990 right before Alan and Lucy marry in May. They remarry in summer of 1991 if I remember correctly.
7 hours ago, carolineg said:The clips I was watching were strictly early Jagger/Karen, so Robin only appears when she is with them. She doesn't get an entire POV, but I assumed Robin perceived Karen as a romantic rival although Jason/Karen were oblivious.
I am not sure if we are supposed to find Karen/Jason rootable. Obviously, Jagger/Karen were the endgame from the jump, but Jason was very nice to Karen in the beginning. Jason was a bit douchey to Jagger, but good to Karen. I can understand Jason's anger a bit (not the slut shaming) because Karen did really lead him on for a long time. This is why I tend to find Karen so passive. She seems to just let things happen to her and creates problems with her lack of action and backbone. She let's Brenda walk all over and she let's Jagger and Jason save her or fix her problems. I don't even think Karen truly finds her own agency and power until the end of the Sonny storyline.
From my recollection, Jason seemed dense and Karen seemed wishy washy towards their relationship in 1993. Karen clearly has no interest in Jason. Jason clearly doesn't want to admit defeat. I am a fan of angst so I definitely can get behind Jagger and Karen. Your point about Karen's reserved nature is noted and is something I am not fond of in Levinson's heroines. I like when he allows them to have a little spunk (which the scriptwriters manage on occasion). As a counterpoint, I find that Brenda, under Levinson, lacks humanity, which is noteable on a show where there is such depth of character and investment in the rich emotional lives of the characters. While I get Brenda is suppose to keep things close to the vest, it makes moments like her telenovela-esque meltdown over the letter cringey. I enjoy Levinson, but it isn't perfect.
6 hours ago, carolineg said:The actual island story wasn't that bad. Once Jason/Jagger/Karen got back thinking they killed a man they were getting blackmailed into increasingly goofy things. Jagger was stealing cars, Jason was stealing Edward's coin collection to make money, Karen was crying or something and it just one of those dumb teen stories. If any of them had any brains they would just tell their parents (or just Monica/Alan) they killed an escaped con in self defense. And...he wasn't even dead. Then Brenda arrives two minutes later and the island debacle is mostly forgotten.
I am terrible on the head writer timeline for 1992. I know the start of the year is:
January - February: Norma Monty and Linda Grover
February - March: Norma Monty
March - April: no headwriter
And then there is Maralyn Thoma (possibly solo), Bill Levinson with Thoma, and Bill Levinson (solo)
I wonder if there is a writer's change in the fall because there starts to be some major shifts in the story around October with Cheryl dying, A.J. and Nikki's aborted wedding, and the Jack Kensington story starting up.
What I liked about the post-island/pre-Brenda episodes I've seen is the triangle working together.
3 hours ago, titan1978 said:As we have discussed before, Monty had the right idea. She just went about it all wrong. More grounded stories and characters were needed. But she threw too much out too fast for the audience. I think if she chose better writers it could have worked. Marland and PFS both wrote more grounded material that she produced incredibly well. I also think a different actor playing Bill would have helped. Nobody wanted Geary back as another character except maybe Geary himself.
I think there needed to be work within the existing structure. In the pre-revamp Monty period (December-early February 1991), you have a lot of the things she was trying to do but better because the canvas was still there. Dawn ended up sick due to contaminated water at the condo complex tied to shady Broxton, the lawyer involved in the Lucas adoption fiasco. There was class conflict with Lucy fretting over her cousin Colton engaged to the Quartermaine maid Carla Greco. Charlene was still around. Cheryl's kidney failure was another medical story that kept the hospital in focus. It wasn't A+ material, but it was at least heading in the right direction.
I get the sense Gloria wanted complete creative control which is why she installed her sister as head writer. The Eckerts were most likely from her proposed soap she was trying to launch the previous year out of a facility she was involved in developing in Portland. I am not sure the casting worked based on the early characterizations for the Eckerts, but I think the slimmed down Eckerts (Bill and Jenny as leads, Sly supporting, Angela recurring) worked well especially when Angela was reinvented to be more reflective of Carol Lawrence's persona. Bill involved in business with Jenny married into the Q clan was an effective setup.
I wonder how Wayne Northrup might have done as Bill Eckert.
3 hours ago, Khan said:In retrospect, Gloria Monty would have been better off bringing Geary back as Luke. If Genie Francis wasn't available or eager to return at that time, they could've simply said Laura was (presumed) dead and that Luke was back in Port Charles to find her killer(s).
I think Monty recognized after a short while that her idea for an American "EasterEnders" wasn't going to work and started to recognize in her final days that she needed to embrace the past which is why in her last month Delfina makes an appearance, Slick Jones recurrs for a moment, and we see the return of the Q clan with Edward back from the dead and Jason SORASed.
I don't think the action and adventure tales were going to work in the early 1990s so there would have needed to be a new direction for Luke and I am not really sure what that could have been. Some of the least effective pieces for me of Monty 2.0 are the Cartel story and a lot of the action surrounding it. The emotional fallout (Bill kills Harlan) was effective, but getting there was a mess.
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7 hours ago, carolineg said:
I felt Robin/Jason was supposed to be a young crush that actually slow burned once she grew up and finally got the guy she wanted for so long. It was in people's mind, but put away until Robin grew up and had some experience. I am not sure if Karen was supposed to be an interloper or not. I honestly think KMc just probably looked way too young at the time to be paired with Steve Burton.
Karen was just always so morose and Jason was so upbeat. I don't blame Karen for her attitude, but she wasn't even that nice to Jason lol. I don't even know what Jason Q saw in her.
Yes, I noticed Nikki lived upstairs, but everyone from Ruby to Jagger to Karen are openly hostile with her and calling her names and dropping food on her. Why would she want to live there? I can understand the Brenda comparisons because it really did seem like the show was thinking about her and Jagger from what little I've seen. Not enough data yet to tell if they have chemistry, but I don't know how much longer she's going to be around.
The age difference between Burton and McCullough makes Robin/Jason impossible in 1992. I never got the sense the show thought Karen/Jason would be rootable. I'm not sure what was in the playlist, but Robin definitely perceived Karen as a romantic rival early on before that was dropped.
I see the appeal for Karen with the Quartermaines. Her mom is a mess, and while the Quartermaines are too there is a lot of love amongst the chaos and in-fighting. I could see why Karen wouldn't want to give that up so easily. Plus, Karen's goal was to be a doctor so being drawn into a family headed by two well regarded medical professionals is appealing, but I don't find Jason super appealing. To be fair, most of my early viewing of Jason was post-Karen/Jason 1993 when he and A.J. are slut shaming her so I don't have the best impression.
For Jason, I felt that Karen was pretty and smart and her aloofness made her a challenge. By 1993, Jason just seems to want what he wants and doesn't like to be told no.
The Nikki stuff you watched I believe would have been late May/early June. Nikki does leave town (briefly) later in June returning to Washington, D.C., where she was from even though there is no home to return to.
6 hours ago, carolineg said:So I have gotten to the Stone/Jagger/Gina backstory. I will insert a clip. It happens when Jagger/Jason/Karen are stranded on that island.
Basically Jagger was 14 and Stone/Gina were looking like kids-much younger. The mother leaves them for someone named Lenny. And is all you are a man now Jagger because 14 year old Jagger was played by ASJ perhaps? His name was currently Jagger at the time so I guess he got it on the playground or something? CPS or something like that took the kids away because Jagger wasn't watching them when he was working all night which all in all seems fair.
Jason/Karen/Jagger also kill a man which I entirely forgot about lol. I can't remember if this guy stays dead. I want to say he ends up alive. This island story is so silly, but fun.
Thanks. The Lenny story makes sense.
The island story involves Cal and Joseph Adkins. Cal was one of the guys that Jagger pulled the robbery with at Ruby's. Cal's brother was Joseph Adkins, a cop killer who had written a book that all the women at "General Hospital" were incredibly moved by. Bobbie was moved the most and befriended the older Adkins visiting him in prison. The Adkins brothers both escape from prison and ended up on the island with Jagger, Jason, and Karen. I think it was Cal who "died" which leads to Joseph forcing them to steal cars for him or something silly. The Adkins arc ends right as Brenda is about to be introduced so they swiftly moved from one story to the other.
1 hour ago, Vee said:@dc11786 I am curious about something: You've talked a lot about the merry-go-round of stories and love interests for various characters in the late '80s/early '90s before Monty. You also mentioned that they apparently tried to pair up Anna with Edge/Evan Jerome. I'd love to know more about that as he seems like a real scuzzy character in these 1991 eps, even by Anna's occasionally dicey standards. What was that about?
Also, they do make a lot of mention about Bobbie being back at work here though I know she apparently quit before Monty took over (they keep saying she was just on leave). Did Tony leave her at this point, or how did they get back together from here? And how long have Alan and Monica been divorced at this point? I know they get back together shortly. Thanks for any help; I dig through wonderful past posts of yours often, but there is such a wealth of information out there to sift through.
People can say what they will about Monty's disastrous '91 revamp and they're mostly right from what I've seen and heard, but I also really admire the audacity and scope of the big canvas-wide event with the S.S. Tracy sinking and how it shakes up everything and becomes a cross-town community event while also adding new people (of varying quality) right on top of the Valentine's Day follies with Robert and Anna, which I do find both hot and funny. You don't see scale and intent like that often anymore. Tracy and Larry Ashton (and Lila!) getting smashed together is also really funny. I wonder if they were ever committed to Larry with Tracy. I liked him when he returned in the 2010s, hoped Hugo Napier would stick around, and sighed when Carlivati(?) wrote him out by exposing as a collaborator in some skullduggery and having him quite literally flee the scene, racing offscreen on foot out of the Quartermaine mansion to evade capture.
I didn't realize Paul Satterfield's Paul apparently came on as another suave bad guy a la Spencer Truman on OLTL; I knew he was in with the cartel for his daughter but I didn't know he poisoned a bunch of people. I wonder when they decided to try to redeem him and make him a hero. He's always come off smarmy to me, but I may be biased re: evil Spencer.
Edge Jerome was introduced in November, 1990, in the waning days of Gene Palumbo and Joseph Hardy's run. The show had picked up a thread from the previous year when Victor Jerome had died. Lucy had "found" the Jerome diamonds and turned them over until an heir could claim them. Why Julian wasn't able to when he was alive is beyond me. Tracy wanted to mess with Lucy and had Scotty (her partner in crime/lover) help her discover if there were any Jeromes left out there. Scotty and Tracy break into the Harrington mansion (located next to the Quartermaine house) to locate the Jerome family bible which reveals an Evan Jerome, Jr. exists. Scotty tracks Evan/Edge down to Berlin and brings him back.
Edge asks Anna out, but she turns him down. I felt they were going to do more with that because story wise Anna had ties to the Jeromes and Anna hadn't been really paired with anyone since Casey (despite some chemistry tests with her and Shep Casey are probably some other one offs I am forgetting). Edge was seeing Dawn mostly at the time of his arrival, but Michael Watson was off filming overseas so Decker was off canvas for the initial Edge/Dawn pairing.
When the whole adoption situation comes to light, I think Bobbie becomes a bit of a pariah because she keeps the truth about Cheryl/Lucas to herself even while Cheryl is thought to be dying of liver or kidney failure. Bobbie and Tony break up over that, but they ended up getting back together within a few months after the failed attempt to pair cousins Bobbie and Bill Eckert. I think Bobbie might quit over the Lucas stuff as well. In story, it looks like B.J. starts acting out because of Tony and Bobbie's breakup leading to a temporary reconciliation which becomes permanent.
Regarding the sinking of the S.S. Tracy and the attempt to revamp the show, I will credit Monty for having a vision, however misguided it was in both content and execution. I think once the carnage settles by 1992 the Eckerts aren't the albatrosses they were initially. My biggest complaint is when you disgard a major portion of your canvas as Monty did, it is like watching a new show and new shows take years to develop because everything is starting at scratch. I found the March/April 1991 episodes I've watched more engaging than I expected, but it's an entire new show and it feels a bit hollow compared to anything from Wendy Riche a year later and lacking the familiarity of characters from the year prior. I think Palumbo maintained the core but weaved in and out secondary characters. I would have been curious to see how Riche might have handled the Charlene's brood.
I believe that Larry is introduced to the canvas in October, 1988, by Ann Marcus as part of her post-strike decision to make Kurt McKinney's Ward Ned Ashton, though maybe this was in a bible she left pre-strike. Larry was tied to Colton Shore's mystery woman Ariel, this was Larry's second wife I think. By December/January, it is Pat Falken Smith writing and by mid-March Tracy has returned. Jane Elliott was still at "Days of our Lives" as Angelica until February, 1989. I believe Palumbo takes over around May-June so whatever Smith may have planned for the duo may never have occurred, if anything.
In what I've seen, Palumbo wasn't big on revisiting Larry/Tracy. Larry is comic relief and gets a C-level (or lower) romance with Terry Brock. Later, his romantic life is mostly off screen. The best of Larry under Palumbo is his desire to be a James Bond figure given all the spy intrigue with Faison and Wyndmere.
I feel like a lot of the Paul / Tracy / Ned / Jenny stuff is laid foundational pretty early in Jenny and Paul's runs but it doesn't seem to pick up until the show reveals that Paul was only being tricked into the cartel. Whether or not that was the intention from the beginning, I am not 100% sure.
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11 hours ago, carolineg said:
- KMc is absolutely one of the most natural teenager actors GH has ever had (along with JJ). She is adorable, dorky, and so realistic even when she trying to flirt with Jason, having no chance.
- Bill Eckert hates Jagger like a lot. He berates Ruby for hiring him. A few videos later Jagger is working for him. Either some scenes didn't make it into the playlist or the writing for Bill is that chaotic.
- Nikki Langton (sp?) likes to hang out at Kelly's and get verbally abused by everyone for some reason. There were a few scenes with Jagger where I thought they might have been testing them, but obviously that didn't happen.
- Rhonda Wexler is currently the most ridiculous caricature of a drunk, partying mom. She drinks from the bottle in the morning, parties it up with strange men midday, hits on Jagger, dresses inappropriately, and crashes Dylan's christening. She gets more layers later on, but boy is she just over the top now
- Karen and Jagger like/"hate" each other from Day 1. For some reason I thought she met Jagger after she was dating Jason, but Karen/Jagger pretty much are the obvious goal from the moment they both appear.
I am only going to watch until I figure out the Jagger/Stone/Family dynamics and then probably stop unless I find it really compelling, but I'll keep sharing my thoughts.
Glad you are getting into this. I am going to hunt down 1992 as it's the one year that's missing from my lot of episodes (besides a few months from 1989) because I am also curious.
From what I remember in the March-April 1992 episodes I watched, it felt that Robin's feelings for Jason were where the audience sympathy was suppose to lie and that Karen was meant to be a hurdle. Karen and Jagger are both introduced when the show has no head writer credited and Riche has made it clear she was heavy in developing the characters. Karen is rough on around the edges and I don't see Burton's Jason taming her.
Ruby talks Bill into hiring Jagger on June 2, 1992, according to the summaries on curlyq's website. I'm not sure if it is flat out said, but I assume that they felt Ruby might have felt something for Jagger as he was a sorta Luke type (loner, family baggage, working class). He is hired to work on the Outback renovations so it might have been short term work.
Nikki lives in the apartments above Kelly's and was a pariah for suing Monica and GH for her father's death. Nikki was a fairly damaged young woman who had deep psychological issues. During the malpractice fire, it was revealed that David believed she had purposely torched the family home when she was younger with the intention of killing her own mother; she succeeded. Nikki was chemistry tested with Eric Simpson as well. In some ways, Nikki is succeeded by Brenda in the young schemer role as they only have a brief overlap.
I really like Rhonda and Alan's relationship in 1993, but in the small pieces of Rhonda in 1992 I've seen, she seems like a lot.
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On 3/3/2024 at 2:54 PM, carolineg said:
Gina was adopted by a wealthy family and was embarrassed by her upbringing. It was Brenda that visited her and tried to get her to reunite with Jagger and help find Mike/Stone. She ends up being slightly receptive, but still wants to keep her distance.
I think Jagger, Stone, and Gina were full siblings. Jagger was just the oldest. I can't recall hearing anything otherwise and the good old internet lists them as full siblings. Gina was just supposed to be a bit younger (Nikki Cox doesn't really look that young, but...) and got adopted fairly quickly. Their family makeup is a bit confusing just because I don't think we get a lot of clarity on why the parents left or how long Jagger was raising them before CPS got involved.
Thanks for the clarification. I could have sworn I heard Jagger talk about running away from his step-father but I watch things out of order so I wouldn't even know if its something I heard (or misheard) in 1992 or 1993.
If Bill Levinson had stayed, I wonder if they would have made a greater push to keep Gina around. It wouldn't have hurt the show to have another younger female character as I don't recall Jason having much relationship wise at the time. A Gina / Jason pairing seems like a source for a lot of tension for Jagger and Karen without there being another triangle.
On 3/5/2024 at 2:07 PM, titan1978 said:Something Riche’s GH really captured well was a sense of melancholy, under all her head writers. Characters sitting with their feelings, sadness but not hysterics. Those long scenes filled with characterization. And Brenda really was connected across the canvas at this point.
I definitely agree with this statement about characters just in their feelings. I find early Riche/pre-Labine very strong and I am a very big fan of the work of Claire Labine. I think there is just a sense of rich humanity because the characters are constantly allowed to feel things and discuss those feelings which leads to such rich character connections across the canvas. This connectivity allows even little moments to stand out. I was watching something from August, 1993, and there is a birthday party for someone (Lucas, I believe) and Tiffany arrives seeing Lucas after having miscarried her and Sean's baby the month earlier and it just is so tense and breaks your heart in the same moment.
On 3/6/2024 at 11:34 AM, carolineg said:The thing about Jason's accident wasn't that he didn't have emotions and was stone cold. He just didn't process emotions the same anymore and had brain damage and issues with social cues, reading maps, memory, interpersonal relationships, etc. But he was trying to learn those things. Sometime in the 2000's the narrative became he's fearless because he has no emotions and is some sort of hitman shaped robot. I don't think that was the intent of the original accident and clearly turned into some weird Guza fantasy, IMO. Steve loved that idea and never tried to do much else again.
I had to teach Phineas Gage to my middle schoolers one year. It is the real life story of a man in the 19th century who had a railroad spike go through his skull. Gage lived and became a completely different person. I imagine this case, or similar cases, was the original origin of the story, but it's a shame it went so south.
21 hours ago, Vee said:I was watching the bibs and bobs of stuff available from Ryan and Felicia's cabin showdown in November '92. They are real lucky nobody was paying attention to the soaps because this creepy "Tubular Bells" ripoff theme they're using for this story is right on the line of copyright infringement lol. But there's a lot of good music throughout, and I think some familiar cues are lifted actually from films but I'm not sure which, and I usually have a good ear for those (Loving reused the sinister score from Jennifer Eight often throughout the '90s). Anyway, it's great stuff, well-performed and very well-directed (esp the shot of the firelit silhouettes as Felicia starts stabbing away at Ryan). I really wish more of the full episodes were available - the full ones I can find stop right as it's getting warmed up and just as Cheryl Stansbury's will has been viewed, which is quite a story to peek at as well. I've seen some of the fallout with the custody battle before but not enough. That whole Cheryl, Robert, Julian Jerome, etc. mess has never made much sense to me, or how they seemed to go from her to Robert with another woman (Katherine Delafield?) in random succession and both got swiftly flushed.
I'm glad you found 1992. It's a very quiet year, but there is some real beauty in it in the pieces I've caught. Your conversation from the "Loving" thread definitely had me listening to the cues. Some of the cues from "General Hospital" are definitely recycled later on "Loving." So there is problem some connection there. Wendy Riche's general Kenny G atmosphere feels very authentic to the period it was produced in. I feel very at home in 1992-1993 in a way I don't in other material.
The sequences that are online involving Cheryl's death are quite compelling in October, 1992. Tiffany takes on so much of that process of caring for Lucas, and her parents, and arranging the funeral and everything else that I can see how we get to Tiffany taking those drinks in March, 1993, and ending up attempting suicide by July, 1993. I know @carolineg has made some strong arguments about why Tiffany's descent into alcoholism was wrong for the character, and I admire her thoughts on the subject. Seeing this piece though, I really think it was a well done story with my only real complaint (other than Levinson's misogynist leanings in different parts of the custody battle) is that we never got to see Tiffany's rise from the ashes.
If anyone is interestested.
Regarding the Robert / Cheryl / Julian / Katherine merry go round is definitely messy and I haven't completely unpacked it. I know Robert and Cheryl are a thing during the Writers' Strike in 1988 so I imagine they were probably set up by Ann Marcus. I believe Pat Falken Smith arrives in late 1988/early 1989 and torpedoes Cheryl/Robert in favor of Robert/Katherine. I think Cheryl may have been too demure for Robert/Tristan Rogers, though she grew immensely from what I've seen from her year on "The Catlins." Some of Cheryl's financial dealings were fraudulent.
Edie Lehmann definitely has more spunk and personality, but the character is a hard fit. The orphaned pianist with money doesn't really fit in with the spy set, but I do think that was intentional. Katherine is an outsider looking in, but that isn't always the most compelling position to be in on a soap and not be fighting to get into the inner circle. Truthfully, she would have played better in the Quartermaine world probably in some sort of romantic situation with Larry or Ned Ashton and cozying up to Lila while infuriating Tracy with every move.
Then you throw in the baby and all hell starts to break loose. It is Wes Kenney and Pat Falken Smith who dump Cheryl. Then Palumbo and Kenney bring Cheryl back for like 2 months in 1989 (summer) to have Cheryl have her baby, the baby is stolen by baby brokers, Cheryl mourns, and then leaves town with Bobbie ending up with the child. In 1989, I believe the story is Julian Jerome is the father, but Cheryl is claiming the baby is Robert's to keep Julian away from her kid.
Palumbo and Joe Hardy start laying the groundwork for Cheryl's return in April-May, 1990 when Lucas gets sick and is diagnosed with diabetes. This sets up the need to revisit Lucas' parentage. Now, Jackie Zeman gets pregnant in 1990 so I'm not sure if her pregnancy delayed Cheryl's return because Cheryl's not back until late September when Bobbie is off canvas with Zeman taking her maternity leave. Now that Cheryl's back, the set up is clearly for Robert to be the father. Julian's death in March, 1990, may have also played a role in this change, but there was just more story to mine from Robert as the baby's father though Lucas would also be the heir to the Jerome diamonds that Lucy expected to build her fortune around.
At some point in 1990, Palumbo and Hardy seem to realize Katherine and Robert don't have a lot of story to tell together, and, more importantly, Katherine is not compelling stand alone which she would need to be given Robert's presence in the crime/adventure stories. An emotionally unwell Cheryl with Robert's son being raised by Frisco's brother and sister-in-law while Anna is dating the Jerome heir (imposter) just seems ripe for story to be told. Katherine could be present, but she would feel added on especially now that her chem test partner Colton is setting up house with Carla Greco.
Katherine's departure (and Harrison Davis) precipitates the blood blath that Gloria Monty opens her December, 1990- late January/early February 1992 run, but even if Lehmann hadn't been fired by Hardy, Monty would have disposed of her in short order.
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23 hours ago, Vee said:
They also go out of their way at the close of the Kevin/Felicia/Lucy hostage crisis to show Felicia in the shower flashing back to her many ordeals with both Ryan and Kevin. 1992-93 pre-Labine is not an era I have a ton of familiarity with, though I've seen episodes here and there over the years; if anyone can point to any particularly remarkable Ryan/Felicia episodes or just pass along a rough timeframe I'd love to see them. Thanks.
I'm rougher on timeline for 1992 than I am for 1993, but I think this is where there story is...
late May, 1992: Felicia arrives at the Brownstone and passes out. Wakes up with amnesia and no memory of what happened.
June - October, 1992: Felicia has memories of a man and a relationship in Texas, but not really clear on the details (neither Felicia, nor I, but I believe it turns out to be Ryan's first wife, Gloria). Ryan arrives at General Hospital as a pediatrician. He becomes involved with Felicia. She and Mac are slowly piecing together her past.
November, 1992: Felicia and Ryan go off to a cabin. Felicia regains her memory. Ryan keeps her hostage. There is a faux marriage ceremony, an attempted rape (I think), and finally Felicia shoots Ryan. This is definitely November because Felicia's argument in the episodes is that she needs to get home for Maxie's birthday (which is early November). What is available of this period should be worth watching. It would also feature the fallout of A.J.'s aborted wedding to Nikki when Alan paid off Nikki to leave town.
January-February, 1993: Felicia's trial for shooting Ryan. Felicia is in the sanitarium. The trial stuff is a bit over the top at times, but once you are into the time period, it doesn't feel as painful. Not stuff I would suggest that you need to see, though there is a nice scene of Ryan showing up at the mental hospital to mess with Felicia that is pretty noteworthy, in my opinion.
March-April, 1993: Mac and Felicia are on the run. By late March, I think Ryan is slowly starting to unravel. April 1993 is a good month to watch because you get the 30th reunion week. The start of Karen and Jagger. Dominique, Scotty, and Lucy having the baby while Dominique has to accept that her days are numbered.
April-May, 1993: Mac and Felicia fake her death and start gaslighting Ryan. This sequence is very good. Everyone at GH seems to be getting involved in it. Bobbie steals a picture. I think Audrey is distracting Ryan. I haven't gotten to it myself yet, but Ryan holding the Hardys hostage seems exciting and one of their last big stories.
21 hours ago, carolineg said:I knew he wasn't great, but some of his early stuff is really rough. I am a bit sad he left acting because his ability to grow so quickly implies a ton of talent. And they really nailed the Jagger/Stone casting-they look so much a like. Nikki Cox, not so much lol.
I didn't realize that Gina had been adopted. I saw an episode or two from the summer of 1993 and Gina was hanging around at the tennis courts with her bougie friends before getting a visit from Brenda, I think. I think Nikki Cox worked as the poor girl trying to fit into the newer environs of the upper crust, but, yes, not really looking much like her siblings. Jagger was their half-brother right? I know there was some discussion of the family make up in the episodes I watched but I wasn't giving too much attention to detail. It did sound though like Jagger didn't get along with his step-father.
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22 hours ago, Vee said:
Lea DeLaria (OLTL) and Ming-Na (ATWT) wearing an eyepatch for some reason are in, uh, this, which appears to be some sort of well-intentioned Indigo Girls jukebox musical. I find it moderately cringe to be charitable, but hey, good for them.
I saw "Glitter and Doom" last fall at a LGBTQ film festival. It was a gay musical romcom with the music of the "Indigo Girls." The general audience liked it, but it wasn't my favorite film. I think it won an audience award, but the director and a cast member appeared so I think there was good will. It was a film that really leaned into cameos. I think DeLaria played a club owner and Ming-Na played the mother of one of the characters. If I remember correctly.
One of the shorts shown during the festival, "Lux Freer," was directed by Cynthia Gibb (ex-Suzi, SFT) and featured Jamie Martin Mann (Tate, DOOL). Judith Light was attached to another (producer?)short they screened, the animated "Aikane."
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That was a nice read. And timely, for me. I received a copy of the bible for "Generations." It's pretty intensive; it's over 300 pages. The biggest shock to me, in just scanning it, is the Doreen was not originally a main player. She is listed under supporting characters as Martin Jackson's ex-wife. From my quick dip, she is barely present in the story. Her main function appears to be making Martin sympathetic (they are in midst of a divorce and she's spending all his money) while he pursuing Ruth Marshall (again, roads not taken from soap bibles to onscreen story). Martin was also listed as a supporting player.
Rob Donnelly was also not part of the original concept for the show. Though it seems their are origins of Rob in two different minor characters (Professor Donovan and Rob Raelko). It looks like that career paths for Adam and Sam were switched. Originally, Sam was going to go into advertising while Adam was going to become a male model.
There were several major characters in the bible that never materialized onscreen. Jacquelyn Marshall was mentioned onscreen, but never appeared. She was originally a main character as was her husband, cop Kevin Grant. Also, Chantal had a married love interest, David Jordan, who worked in the State Attorney's office with her. Another character in the main cast was Lisa Morgan, a teacher who would have been involved romantically with J.D. There was also a character Dr. Greg Sutton, a white plastic surgeon who was a childhood friend of Laura's who Ruth had been romanticlaly interested in.
Also, several later additions were intended to appear much earlier. Peter Whitmore was suppose to arrive just as Rebecca's romance with Lloyd Bradfield heated up, with his second wife Francesca in tow. Eric Royal was suppose to be part of the original cast, though his name was Eric Taylor in the bible.
It's clear that cuts were made for a variety of reasons, but mostly to trim down the large cast. Chantal had a whole storyline which was later reused in the second year with Eric Royal though it looks like the story was reconfigured. Though this meant that Jacquelyn, Kevin, and David didn't make the final cut. Also, Greg didn't make it onscreen though it seems that a lot of his function was given to Peter when they decided Peter, not Henry, fathered Chantal. Corey McCallum was set to have a flirtation with Jessica Gardner, but I imagine that story made NBC skittish. Probably not as skittish as others though. Lisa's story involved the revelation that she had been male and had undergone sexual reassignment surgery so that story was probably vetoed by NBC. Peter's arrival was late in the bible so it was probably just prolonged when the show's initial plots weren't generating the energy that was expected.
I can definitely see though why what ended up onscreen was so messy early on because the reconfiguration of so many major pieces of the original groundwork changed.
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5 hours ago, Vee said:
It is a bit wild to me that Tess came on as Trucker's(?) nanny and then became an advertising tycoon in record time. I still don't get how that happened.
Tess was a con artist from the start. She stages the run in with Trucker in the mountains at the clinic so that she can connect with the recent widower who had inherited Trisha's millions. Tess was (briefly) Christopher's nanny, but she didn't care for kids. She simply wanted Christopher's daddy's money. I suspect some of this was cribbed from the plans that Taggart had for Dinahlee was her last (or second to last depending on when Flynn first aired) characters from her 1988-1991 run.
Tess' backstory with Curtis and Buck was convoluted. Her marriage to Dante just piled on the insanity. I've never figured if they were really going to go with Tess and Trucker, but I don't think there was much story there to tell. Given the strength in other parts of the canvas, I imagine story was initially pitched by Taggart and Guza in late 1992 with Trisha remaining on the canvas.
The stint as secretary at Alden Enterprises continued the throughline that Tess was after money. This was when she was blackmailing Curtis with the gun that killed Dante. Also, Clay seduced Tess to get her off of Curtis' back. It was all fairly stupid, in my opinion.
When Nixon comes on, she does lay some (minor) groundwork for the advertising storyline when she becomes Steffi's manager. Clearly, Tess is after a quick buck hoping that with very little work she can make a boatload of money. Today, Tess would probably attempt to be some sort of social media influencer without putting in any of the effort. Nixon puts a bit of work into salvaging the trainwreck of a character that is Tess. It's Nixon that really smooth the edges and gives them more purpose. It is through her management of Steffi that she gets Clay to invest in the agency, while simutaneously getting Jeremy to back it as well.
Nixon reimages Tess as a sorta second chance at the Ceara Connor character with the abusive background (except Tess suffered at the hands of her husband, not her father) and the sort of cunning business tactics that I imagine made Ceara appealing to Jeremy. I believe Jeremy makes a comparison to a woman from his past when he references Tess, which I've assumed is Ceara but may have been Erica.
I found the instant and massive success of the agency a bit of a stretch as well as how quickly Steffi soared out of a small agency in the suburbs of Pennsylvania.
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On "Generations," the bedrock of the show was the friendship between Doreen Jackson and Ruth Marshall. Both women had grown up poor and had elevated themselves into the upper echeleons of Chicago society while still facing discrimination. Doreen married old money Martin Jackson, who was involved in investment management. It was through Martin that Doreen came to know Ruth and Henry Marshall, the owners of several South Side ice cream shops that Martin helped to develop into a national food brand. Ruth had been supporting her husband along the way, and, in the clip alone, had ambitions of her own which included owning the home her mother Vivian had worked as a maid.
Here is an episode featuring the women individually from the first months of the series. Both women have a strong sense of who their charactes are even from the beginning. Here:
Ruth and Doreen were good friends. Doreen often had to keep it real with Ruth, who hoped that money would help to avoid racial tension. Both women worked together on the Womens' Art Council. They also were supportive of each other in good times, and bad, as well see in this clip:
the Maya and Doreen catfight is always cited, but I think some of the scenes leading up to it are equally important. In this clip, Ruth Marshall confronts Doreen over the revelation that Danielle is Ruth's grandchild, a secret Doreen had been keeping for many months. The delicious irony of this sequence is that Ruth herself is embarking on the start of her own story where it is revealed she has been hiding the paternity of her own daughter, Chantal Marshall, from the rest of the world. Chantal was the daughter of Peter Whitmore, not her husband Henry. Henry was aware that Chantal wasn't his, but he wasn't aware (if I recall correctly) that Peter was the man in question.
And finally, here is a bit from the final days when Peter Whitmore has returned. Doreen, who had been established as a saloon singer in the earliest of episodes, becomes enchanted when she learns Peter is reopening his old jazz club, the Music Box. Doreen is determined to work with Peter to get back into a business that she knows increasingly well. The connection to Peter is still developing as the show comes to it's conclusion and before Ruth's secret that Peter is her father's daughter can be revealed publically.
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The show never committed to Patti having developmental issues. Taggart and Guza started the story, but Nixon and crew didn't really stick with it. Patti received birth to three services (or whatever it was called back then), but they said they would have to see if she would be behind permanently and she kept making progress. Patti had some slight gaps in her development, but they would never say whether or not Patti would be dealing with a condition for the rest of her life. There was a lot of talk about how they had to wait and see. The network might have been skittish about the issue and vetoed it or Nixon might have decided she didn't want to do that story after dealing with it with Beth Martin on "All My Children."
Also, Nixon had initially had Shana befriend Tess Wilder in the fall of 1993. I suspect, at one point, the plan may have been for Tess to be Patti's nanny. Though, they did quickly introduce the idea of the ad agency so maybe I am wrong.
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6 hours ago, DRW50 said:
Thanks for your help. I would like to see them too.
I didn't remember Keith had been let go twice. That must sting. I suppose she was on the show long enough that I assume she might have been a more popular character with viewers than she was. I get the choice in 1994 but I think there was still more to do with her in 1989, with so many moving pieces around (why not revisit her old ties to Alex/Clay? Why not just kill off Jim around that time and play out the estrangement with the Aldens we got when she came back?).
I don't think resting Shana was a bad idea. Around this time, I believe a bunch of the Aldens were dropped or taken off-contract. For example, I want to say Augusta Dabney and/or Wesley Addy went off-contract. Callan White was also dropped. As stated, Shana had been too neutered by marrying her and Jim off.
I forget that Jimmy was born offscreen.
To me, Shana had a bigger part to play in 1994 when they wrote her out when they brought back Cabot and revealed that the Rescotts, not the Aldens, were the originator of the product which Alden Enterprises had made it's fortune. Baracuda Shana fighting in the boardroom would have forced Leo to play stay-at-home dad and deal with his daughter Patti's developmental issues, if they actually decided to develop that story.
2 hours ago, Sapounopera said:Thank you for the 1987 episode!
Shana could have been the show's Iris Carrington or Tracy Q. They turned her into a very boring character once she was domesticated with Father Jim. And Gwyneth became the Alden b*tch.
The Shana / Ann rivalry was interesting and gave the show some momentum. It's a shame they couldn't have found interesting ways to keep their dynamic at the center of the story. I think Shana should have defended Lorna in her trial for the murder of Zona, which could have lead to Ann losing it when Lorna went to prison. Also, a Shana / Merrill (recast) friendship with Shana keeping Merrill's secret that her child was Roger's and not Doug's could have given the show more for both women to do.
2 hours ago, DRW50 said:That's very true. Shana in an Iris role makes sense.
The start of an episode during Loving's UK run - if Mike is mentioned this must be from 1985 or 1986 at the latest. Sadly, this channel has said before they don't care for soaps, so I don't see them sharing the rest of the episode.
If Trisha wasn't in that clip, I would have sworn it was early 1984, but that clearly isn't possible. The coat narrows this down to about February-March 1985, but it might be slightly earlier. In December, Trisha arrives home. In January, Stacey has just had her aborted wedding to Tony Perilli. I don't get the sense that this is playing out right after that, but I could be wrong. I believe this would be when Stacey and Jack are running around behind a pregnant Ava's back, but I don't get the sense of any subtext from Lauren Marie Taylor that she is lying when she says she and Jack just ran into each other so I could be wrong.
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Lynda Hirsch quoted Susan Keith at the time of her departure (mid-May, 1989) that Keith and Davies had both been let go. Keith talked about how the couple had been getting less and less story once they had been married, but suggested that playing the dynamic of Shana wanting a child while Stacey was dealing with an unwanted pregnancy would have been worth exploring. In this context, I actually understand bitchy Shana circa fall 1991 much better than I ever have.
Keith also cited the turnover in writers and producers. Joe Hardy would have been producing at this point with Tom King and Millee Taggart writing.
@DRW50 Thanks for posting that. 1987 isn't really the best year for the show, though I agree I wish more would appear. The November, 1987 episodes that popped up later were much stronger and I would be curious to see the teen set that started off the year with Kelly Conway (surrogate Alden granddaughter) and Rob Carpenter (working class punk). Overall, the April Hathaway tale seems very unappealing and a poor imitation of the Donna Beck story Nixon had told on "All My Children."
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I've resumed my viewing of "Eldorado" from the DVD set I purchased a couple years back. I'm in the episode 91-100 range so I am in February, 1993. It is really solid show.
Roland Curram as Freddie Martin, the retired gay nurse, has got to be one of the best written and performed characters in the show. Curram gives you a whole meal of emotions in an episode. In this set, his character is set with a double-header. The arc with Natalie, the daughter he had from the disastrous first marriage when he was still in the closet, comes to a close when Natalie returns to England with Freddie agreeing to give his daughter away at Natalie's wedding, even though her husband to be is homophobic (and possibly closeted). Freddie and Natalie's goodbye referenced their first meeting and how far they had come. I am sad to see Natalie go, but I appreciate that the character isn't being forced to stay and forced onto the canvas.
Freddie is immediately shifted into his next big drama: the revelation that his secret Saturday night sidepiece Paco is actually Javier Fernandez, the twenty something year old son of his friends Roberto and Rosario. Javier has recently married his girlfriend Ingrid, pregnant with his child, in a civil service but the Fernandez clan planned a larger celebration including a church blessing of the union. The preparations take up most of the episodes and then the fall out.
Freddie visits Javier hours before the wedding to give him a gift, an Egyptian cat statue which I imagine will come back into play later. Freddie seems to know that it is over, and Javier gives him a letter not to be read until after the ceremony. After Freddie departs, Javier slips into the hotel bath with a faulty gas water heater and dies from carbon monoxide poisoning though it initially appears he may have drowned.
Curram is wonderful in playing his well hidden grief, while the real surprise is Buki Armstong as Gerry, Freddie's tomboy best mate who seems to be a comic character for the most part. The night before the blessing, Gerry caught Javier slipping into Freddie's for one of their Friday night rendezvouses. Armstrong plays every little look as Freddie avoids her attempts to talk and then later when the infamous Bunny arrives to tell Gerry and Freddie, who have been preparing Giorgio's restaurant for the reception, that Javier has died. The friendships on this show are just beautiful. Gerry gets ugly in order to force Freddie to open up (she typically prepared the meal for Freddie and his mystery man and wonders if Freddie is going to ask her to do it again this week?). They are a pair who I've come to enjoy dearly.
The rest of the Fernandez family is also doing well. A lot of the emotion is coming in waves. The initial shock wears off and they each lose it one by one. Mother Rosario Fernandez had been walking around in a daze in the days leading up to the blessing haunted over whether or not she made the right choice by aborting her late in life pregnancy. When her youngest, Maria puts the pieces together and learns that her mother had an abortion, she lashes out. In the days after Javier's death, Maria disappears only to return to brutally tell her mother that Javier's death is God's punishment for her abortion. It is powerful stuff even if a bit stilted by the acting.
A real treat in the midst of all the blessing preparation and fallout has been the character of Monika Olson, Ingrid's mother who has come in for the wedding. Monika isn't pleased with the union, but isn't the typical soapy mother from hell actively scheming to break up the duo. She just makes some suggestions to Lars, her husband and Ingrid's father, about how better off Ingrid would be back in Stockholm. It sets up the impending drama well; what happens to Ingrid, pregnant with Javier's child, now that her husband has died? Ingrid has been a source of some drama in the household as she was Rosario's sounding board during the pregnancy drama as she had considered an abortion herself when she first discovered it.
The trajectory of the Fernandez clan the past few months of episodes has been wonderful weaving in the drama of both pregnancies, the impact it has had on Rosario's sense of independence, the backdoored revelation that quiet and brooding Javier has been living a double life, and the question of how will they all go on. Will Ingrid stay in Los Barcos? Will Maria ever forgive her mother? Will Rosario forgive herself? Will the Fernandez family find out that Freddie and Javier were lovers? If so, how will this impact Roberto and Freddie who are working together at Giorgio's restaurant, the dream left behind by the dead Javier?
While Fernandez crew has been soaring, the Lockhead crew is facing a similar risen from the ashes situation. The Lockhead women have been shipped off (temporarily) to England so that Nessa can have surgery. In his wife Gwen's absence, Drew has just deteriorated. His alcoholism has truly gotten out of control. He allowed his second hand book stand to get ransacked, the family's flat is in shambles, and he is getting into drunken altercations with many of his worried friends who have been asked by Gwen to look after her wayward husband. Complicating the situation, Drew and Gwen's son, Blair, has moved into a caravan given to him by his employer, the nefarious Marcus Tandy. The relationship between father and son is in a bad place; Blair is embarased by his father's alcoholism and Drew jealous and hurt by Blair's fatherly relationship with his crime boss employer.
Blair, one of the characters I thought should have gotten the axe in the first round of cuts, has emerged as one of my favorites at this stage. His relationship with Marcus is intriguing as Marcus enjoys playing Daddy War(crime)bucks to Blair gifiting him the caravan and then nickling and diming him on every expense. This plays out as Pilar, Marcus' girlfriend, is considering her own future and desire to start a family. She is starting to realize that Marcus isn't father of the year material and I feel like there might be hints that Marcus has had a vasectomy.
With Nessa away, Trine Svendesen, her pal, has made a play for 'Razor' Sharpe, the latest addition to the younger set now that Arnaud LeDuc has been written out. Trine is quickly growing bored with the young man and has informed an overly friendly Bunny (he of the marriage to underage tart with a hart Fizz) who informs her she needs an older man. On an American soap, Trine would have gone after Phillipe LeDuc, her ex-boyfriend's father and her mother's secret lover, but I think it heads in a different direction.
Phillipe and Lene's affair was enjoyable in my viewing last time, but we've hit a lull. It is not an A story at the moment, but we've entered a bizarre arc where Phillipe wants a contract drawn between the two of them equivalent of a marraige where they won't cheat, which is wild given the fact both are married. Per Svendsen, Lene's husband and Phillipe's best friend, seems to be onto the fact that Phillipe and Lene are carrying on. He's not in much position to judge as he and Isabella, Phillipe's wife, were running around earlier in the series.
The last bit that seems to be weaving into the show's fabric is the mystery of Joy Slater's attack that left her in a coma and hospitalized for a good bit of time. Joy is now awake and doesn't remember who attacked her, but the police have had a field day interviewing most of the male cast. The money seems to be on Terry, Joy's abusive boyfriend who has also been running her bar in her absence. I appreciate that the Terry-Joy story has allowed Polly Perkins' Trish Valentine to play mother hen. Joy and Trish feel like Eldorado's attempt at "Absolutely Fabulous," which I am not sure is intentional given that AF only would have premiered after Eldorado's launch.
If it comes up again on YouTube or elsewhere, I'd suggest people give it a shot, but probably start in the 30s and not at the beginning which is a really not a good period.
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On 2/14/2024 at 7:14 PM, OzFrog said:
I’ve just finished binge watching some 90s Loving playlists - as much as people rave about Casey and Ally, I actually found Cooper and Steffi just as captivating a couple to watch.
I never truly appreciated how much Cooper transformed as a character throughout his run on Loving until I watched him through the arranged marriage with Ally and then his ultimate romance with Steffi. The Casey/Ally/Cooper/Steffi quadrangle is IMO one of the best I’ve seen on US daytime soaps, and ranks up there with the 80s GL Fab Four.
And a lot of that comes down to the sheer talent of all four actors, Paul Anthony Stewart, Laura Wright, Michael Weatherley and Amelia Heinle - all of whom would go on to have successful careers whether in daytime or primetime. They all had such amazing chemistry with each other!
Cooper and Steffi are great. I think because there time is shorter than Casey and Ally's, they might get lost in the overall scheme of things. Steffi and Cooper came together nicely at the end of Agnes Nixon's 1993-1994 run with the Cradle Foundation and Walsh & McCarthy just continue to run with them.
Cooper and Steffi are both such broken people. I love their look at the anniversary party for Alden Enterprises when they are dressed like they are from the 1930s.
I adore Steffi. Amelia Heinle and Jessica Collins were true finds in the late stage of "Loving" in terms of taking whatever was thrown at their characters and making it work. Paul Anthony Stewart was excellent like his spiritual predecessor Eric Woodall. Woodall's performance as Matt is quite compelling.
Steffi and Casey as a couple was the real surprise for me when I was watching "Loving" for the first time.
On 2/15/2024 at 1:38 AM, Paul Raven said:Bill was not there at the beginning and arrived at Xmas for a few eps played by Paul Carr. Ed Mallory assumed the role in June 66. so really it was only Mickey, Marie and Julie. And Mickey was strong supporting, not leading story.
I think the plan all along was to establish Addie/Ben/Steven and then have Julie stay on as a neglected teen.
Not sure which Loving characters should not have been there at the start but a few might have been held back with the focus on fewer characters and stories at the start to help viewers get into the show.
Fair regarding Bill. For some reason, I thought he was more present.
I would argue that Mickey's role as supporting is a little misleading. There were two fairly hefty legal issues in the pre-Bill Bell era with the Sawyer family suing Tom for the death of their patriarch because Tom had been busy to tending to Marie when she attempted suicide and Mickey was involved in the investigation of Woodstock Industries, who had dumped chemicals in the river that had poisoned Julie. His romance with Diane Hunter might not have been front burner, but I feel like his professional life was front burner even if his romantic one wasn't.
On 2/15/2024 at 3:51 AM, Sapounopera said:Cabot and Isabelle were not really needed and we could have parts of them brought to Roger and Ann. Even Shanna could have been brought as Johnny's daughter, or Ann's estranged sister from the start.
I think killing off Johnny was a silly move and not because Lloyd Bridges was a name. The Johnny character needed a bit more care and polishing. He was the original murderer in the pilot film in the planning stages where he was clearly crafted as a more Joseph Kennedy-esque political wheeler dealer. I think they should have gone that route, but presented him as a bit more of a mafioso adjacent type in contrast to the Aldens with Cabot despising him because of Forbes' "new money" status and not really wanting the marriage between Roger and Ann. I would have had him allign with Dane Hammond and had Johnny feeding him resources and money in his pursuit of AE. I would have kept Johnny in a minor role, recurring with some heavy play at times, but again someone in the background. Similar, I'd have done the same with Jake Vochek, the Vochek patriarch, but I would have eventually paired him with Rose.
Down the line, I'd probably have married off Johnny to the Vochek matriarch, who I always imagined as this woman who abandoned her family to live a more glamorous life, but would end up down and out and back in Corinth only to learn that her husband had faked her death to keep his kids from realizing that their mother had abandoned them. I see the woman, who I call Sophia Vochek, as a lounge singer type who has briefly married into some money as a wealthy man's second or third wife and had a contentious relationship with her stepkids who would eventually have been disinherited after her husband's death when one of the kids learned the truth: she had never divorced her first husband.
I also probably could have crafted a whole story around the man dying and the stepson hiring Noreen to be the man's nurse and Sophia trying to terminate her marriage to Victor and quietly remarry her second husband before he died hoping that this would make everything legal with, of course, nothing working out the way it was suppose to.
On 2/15/2024 at 11:23 AM, Khan said:I always forget about Billy and Rita Mae Bristow. Did they have any familial connections with the core families?
In the bible, Rita Mae was slated for an affair with Curtis and Mike. There was an attempt to build a rivalry between Mike and Curtis that stemmed from (a) Rita Mae's casual fling with Curtis and (b) Mike's suspicions that Curtis was tied to the drug ring that had inadvertedly led to Patrick Donovan's death. Rita Mae was a more sinister character in the bible who lured Curtis into a trap where Mike beat the crap out of him and Rita Mae seemingly found this a turn on.
The problem was the source of Rita Mae's need for the attention of other men was supposed to be because Billy was impotent. This story wasn't told; mostly likely due to network interference. Also, Ann Forbes was storyless and it was probably decided there was more mileage from an Ann/Mike relationship than Mike/Rita Mae.
There was also a niece, Colby Cantrell, who was added at the end of the first year. Colby worked at Burnell's and was torn between Curtis Alden and Keith Lane. Keith was involved with Gwyneth so there was a bit of a mother-son love quad.
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9 minutes ago, Vee said:
Sadly, no. I had no idea there was ever a press statement that he was going to for Megan.
https://www.newspapers.com/article/bryan-college-station-eagle-oltl-megan/140979164/
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33 minutes ago, Khan said:
I'd love to know whose idea it was to bring GA/Marco over to GH, because, to me, it just seems so random, even if I think it actually turned out well.
No definitive answer for you, but some timeline stuff to consider.
Gerald Anthony returned to "One Life to Live" in 1989 as Marco and played the romance with Jessica Tuck's Megan, in her Ruby Bright persona. I think he lasted thirteen weeks and split. There are references to him appearing in 1990, but I am not sure that is accurate. When I was trying to find the Ruby/Marco story several years back it was just a summer tale from what I recall.
In late 1991, Anthony took a role on "Another World." There were some comments that he purposely took the job because it was the timeslot competitor to "One Life to Live." This role went on for a little bit, ending in June, 1992.
In January, 1992, when Megan is dying, the press states that Tuck was going to be visited by both Joe Lando's Jake and Gerald Anthony's Marco before her demise. Marco didn't actually return in 1992 to "One Life to Live" did he?
When he departed "Another World" in June, 1992, it was stated even though his character Rick had perished, the plans were for Anthony to continue to direct.
I imagine ABC had their eye on Anthony throughout 1992, and when he came available, they snagged him. Why he didn't end up on "One Life to Live," I really don't know. Given the tight ship that Linda Gottlieb ran, I cannot imagine that would have been a good pairing, which might be why his early 1992 appearance was nixed. Gottlieb and Riche knew each other so it may have also been a case of "One Life" not having space for the character.
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Given Mulcahey's comments about the lines that were cut from "The Bold and the Beautiful" about how Julius needed to reconcile his past with his trans daughter's identity, if we don't see Blaze's mother having a carthartic moment in which she has to merge her dual identities (loving mother and a woman with a strong religious conviction) then it was more than likely cut. And I'm not sure that will bode well in the long run for Patrick Mulcahey's time on "General Hospital."
This might be the wrong topic for this, but I am excited for this Kristina / Blaze story with Mulcahey at the helm. I have always admired the work of Kate Mansi when she was on "Days of our Lives" (she will be always be my Abby), but haven't gotten the chance to see her on "General Hospital." I think she will be somehow who will shine in the coming months. Similarly, I am curious to see what happens to Cynthia Watros' Nina, who I imagine will either soar or have one of the more memorable exit stories in recent years depending on the direction.
13 minutes ago, titan1978 said:He was fun in the boxing Jagger story too, with Felicia after them for being sexist. Didn’t she protest the gym? It’s been a long time.
I loved Marco and Gerald Anthony anywhere we could get him.
Felicia wanted to work out at the boxing gym. She had read an article in a magazine about how it was a growing trend among women. When she went, Marco dismissed her stating that the gym was the last sacred place where men could be men. Felicia launched a one woman protest and Marco caved.
Gerald Anthony was a gem.
12 minutes ago, Vee said:I do wish we'd gotten more of Marco on GH. But that was part of the period where I think Riche was just throwing anything at the wall to see what could hit and succeed (Jagger/Karen, Brenda, Mac and Felicia, Ryan, Scott and Dominique, etc.) post-Monty and pre-Labine.
Marco was introduced in September, 1992, and was immediately used as Tracey's lackey doing her dirty work in the Jenny Eckert/Jack Kensington affair, which I am pretty sure was based, in part, on the Bill Clinton/Gennifer Flowers situation or whatever the most current Clinton affair was at the time. Marco was played with Lucy as well when Lynn Herring returned as he worked as a masseuse at the Deception spa. He also had a fun C-story where he and Reginald went off to California together to dig up dirt on Tiffany for Bobbie during Lucas' custody trial and they just ended up gambling and having a good time.
I really appreciate the pre-Labine period. I think its admirable that Riche and crew really tried to stick within the frame of what was there rather than whole sale turnover. In some ways, I think the use of the veteran cast is better even when the stories aren't the strongest (and I say this as someone who isn't a Nixon or Bell, but a Labine style soap fan). I think Felicia and Mac were in the works during Monty or were at least being chemistry tested. Post-Frisco, Felicia definitely was being tested in several directions, but I think the other one (Conner) was pretty much over by the time Felicia returned to Port Charles. I would say you are right though in how much they gave Felicia/Mac.
Marco was ditched late in 1993 under Labine, but Gerald Anthony also didn't like to stay anywhere too long. Also, with his main crew gone or about to be gone (Tracy, Jagger, Karen) it wasn't like he had a strong connection. I do think the character had utility and they could have had him in other ways.
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11 hours ago, Paul Raven said:
Maybe not all of the Donovans should have been there at the beginning.
Looking back, Days kept some Hortons offscreen at the start, Y&R had Lorie waiting in the wings and when Marland introduced the Reardons and the Snyders other family members were mentioned but not onscreen.
It's an effective strategy, even if other siblings turn up within months.
The 2 sister angle would have worked well with Generations with Ruth doing and another sister still struggling.
Who would you have suggested be kept offscreen from the Donovans in the beginning?
"Days" introduced almost everyone (except Kitty and Danny, renamed and regendered Sandy) but quickly wrote out Addie, Ben, and Steven. They were still present. I think Noreen and Mike should have separated early on if they weren't going to do the AIDS storyline.
The bigger issue is that the Donovans weren't significant enough in the bible. Mike's story is a leading story, but most of the family conflict was tied to his father's death, which didn't happen, and to the animosity with his more intellectual brother, Doug. Doug is presented as little more than a cuckhold or the friendly loser in the Merrill-Roger storyline. Stacey is presented as a potential young schemer, but she doesn't have any story. Patrick si suppose to die. Rose is just present. Noreen also was underdeveloped. Even underdeveloped there was potential there. The Jack-Stacey romance at least tied the two families together but that wasn't until March, 1984, that the story really picked up.
As I think I've said before, I would've gone to town with the Donovans. I would have played it in the pilot film that Doug was carrying on with a man who had ties to AU, Ted Cummings. The investigation into the prostitute murders would have led Patrick Donovan to suspect Ted Cummings might be involved because Ted was spotted at the motel when the murders had begun. Ted would be arrested and refuse to explain his whereabouts during the murders. When things looked bleak, Doug would confess privately to his father that he was having an affair with Ted Cummings, a public relations representative at AU. That Ted was keeping quiet because they had been lovers. Deeply Catholic Patrick would get into a nasty argument with Doug suggesting that he would rather have learned that Doug had been the murderer. After the fight, Patrick would have confronted Ted during which time he would realize that Amelia was the murderer. He would tracked down Amelia Whitley after calling Mike, who ignored his call, and ended up being shot and killed by Amelia before Amelia called Cabot Alden, who helped her escape Corinth for South America unaware that Amelia had killed anyone. In the final moments, as Amelia got on the plane, Amelia vowed to keep Cabot's secret.
As the series picked up, everyone would know that Amelia Whitley was the madam and that she had murdered Patrick Donovan. The Donovans would be preparing for the funeral each reacting in their own way: Stacey seeking solace from the boys at AU leading her into a dangerous situation where Jack had to save her, Mike would quit the force following the hero's speech at the Fourth of July picnic because how could be a hero when he killed his father, Rose would be numb and locking herself away, and Doug would turn to writing because not only had Patrick died but Ted took a position in Philadelphia to escape the drama. Weeks later, Doug would go to see Ted in Philadelphia only for his wife Cindy to open the door.
Meanwhile, everyone would suspect that it was Johnny Forbes who had helped Amelia Whitley leave town as Johnny was out on his boat when Amelia had fled jursidiction. Johnny would become a pariah. This would deflate a lot of Roger's political ambitions. Merrill, slowly falling for Roger, would agree to help Roger to clear Johnny's name by digging deeper into Amelia Whitley's background. While Cabot plotted to ruin Merrill's career, a publishing or production company would approach Merrill about turning the serial killer/Amelia Whitley story into a book or film.
Merrill's investigation would cause animosity among the Donovans. How could Merrill help clear Johnny Forbes' name when the Donovans all knew he was connected to Amelia? Doug would try to remain neutral as he was loyal to his beard as Merrill. Meanwhile, there would also be a level of sexual tension between Mike and Merrill, who would be an independent woman who was having a very fulfilling sex life which may not have played well for her newsanchor image hence her agreement to set up house with Doug to each of their own benefits. As if the tension over Merrill's report wasn't enough, members of Jim Vochek's church had gotten word that Alden University professor Dr. Andrew Lambert was working on an AIDS research project, which the church was planning on protesting because they didn't want their town to be a haven to prostitutes, homosexuals, and addicts.
Noreen would then confess that she had accepted Lambert's offer to work on the AIDS research project because it would came with a significant paycheck, which they would need because of Mike's decision to quit the force. Mike would deliver a homophobic rant which would lead to a rather hostile moment where Doug would slug Mike. Noreen would move out into a studio apartment and spend more and more time at the lab with Dr. Lambert.
Jim Vochek would try to play mediator. He wouldn't believe in his parishioners hostile approach, which, in turn, would cause him some grief with the diocese as a good friend of Rose's, Mrs. Irene Malone, had expressed his distaste in Jim's pro-acceptance sermon. Jim and Mike would have a similar conversation and Mike would be left to wonder if Jim didn't join the Church to escape his own feelings for men. Jim would also visit Doug, who would expect hositlity from Jim, but found friendship. Doug would quickly confess to Jim, who will admit he had known for years about Doug's sexuality due to the confession of a former boyfriend of Doug's. Doug would slowly begin to fall for the very straight, very Catholic JIm and have to fight his feelings.
Mike and Noreen's feelings regarding having a baby would be complicated by Mike's ongoing mental health issues. Mike and Anne would have a fling still, but Noreen wouldn't be accepting. Realizing she was getting older, Noreen would decide to divorce Mike and have a child on her own. Meanwhile, Dr. Lambert would admit that he had developed feelings for her. Noreen would seek out adoption services, but realize how time consuming the process might be.
Stacey would be engaging in unsafe sex with several young men, including Curtis Alden. Stacey would becoming very enamoured with Curtis' group of friends from Europe who shared Curtis' very open views on sex and sexuality. It would be suggested that Curtis was very libertine after being raised by Clay and Gwyn who engaged in a very transparent open marriage. Prior to Stacey hooking up with Curtist, Noreen would express her concern to Stacey about her relationships given the work Noreen was doing with AIDS patients.
Meanwhile, Roger and Merrill's investigation of Amelia would not only unrattle Cabot Alden, but also Garth Slater, Amelia's former boss. As Amelia left in a hurry, there would be lots of mess left in her wake. Roger and Merrill would learn that Amelia was extorting a series of people. Merrill would wonder where the money was as Amelia, in Corinth, had led such a low key lifestyle. It would only be through investigation that we learned that Amelia had funded the best boarding school and Ivy league education of her adopted daughter, Shana Sloane. During the investigation, Garth would attempt to murder Merrill and Roger leading them to a situation where they were injured. When they recovered, Merrill was treated at the hospital and it would be discovered she was pregnant.
Merrill would contemplate an abortion, which would lead to a huge argument with her sister Noreen who desperately wanted a child. It would be when Merrill nearly miscarried the baby that her secret came out. Everyone would assume it was Doug's and it would be the impending birth of the grandchild that would life Rose Donovan out of her depression, after a suicide attempt. Merrill and Doug would plan to marry with Jim performing the ceremony with only Stacey being aware that her brother's feelings for Father Jim were more than platonic.
The board of trustees at Alden University has learned about Dr. Lambert's work and some of the more conservative members are demanding that Lambert's project be terminated. A battle over who will vote for the funding. At the same time, Curtis' pal Mark St. James arrives from France to reveal that he has AIDS and is worried for Curtis based on prior activities they engaged with involving a young woman, Amanda, who has also suddenly died of a mysterious illness. Isabelle takes in Mark, who has been rejected by his family, and is by Curtis' side and she takes him to Dr. Lambert to run testing. Curtis is cleared. Mark stays on with Noreen doing private service. Cabot is furious when he realizes what has been going on and Isabelle kicks out Cabot, who is forced to stay in the Corinth Inn. At the same point, there is a vote over whether or not the funding should continue for the project. Isabelle gives a stirring speech about Mark and about her own brother, Leonard Dwyer, who she suspects was in love with his best friend and had died by his own hand shortly after his friend married a woman.
With the baby on the way, Rose would rejuvenated and with the wedding in air, she begins to design a very simple, but beautiful dress for Merrill. Merrill, who has befriended the Aldens in the process of trying to clear Johnny Forbes' name, shows off the design to Anne and her mother, Isabelle. Isabelle is incredibly impressed and wonders why Rose doesn't have her own shop. Rose makes it clear that the Donovans don't have the kind of money, and Isabelle wants to provide the initial financing for this to occur. She has been secretly been looking to prove to Cabot that she has much more business acumen than he has given her credit for as she has asked to take over the fledging Burnell's department store, but he has dismissed her interest.
News of Doug's wedding brings back Ted Cummings for the bachelor party, which leads to Ted revealing he and Cindy have divorced. Ted wants Doug back. Doug doesn't believe this isn't anything more than an attempt to Ted to get him into bed. A drunken kiss occurs between Ted and Doug which is witnessed by Mike leading to a rather a heated confrontation where Mike, during the rehearsal dinner, outs Doug to the entire Donovan/Vochek clan.
Stacey and Curtis would become involved, but Curtis would be encouraged not to sleep with her because of his potential HIV/AIDS exposure. Stacey meanwhile doesn't completely understand why Curits, who is so sex-positive, won't sleep with her which pushes her towards his cousin Jack. When Stacey starts to exhibit low self esteem, it is Rose and Isabelle who help to transform her as part of their work to open the The Irish Rose Dress Shop. The former tomboy turned beauty queen evokes new interest from both men.
And on and on... clearly lots of this never would happen on ABC daytime in 1983-1984 because of the gay nature of the material, but I am sure someone else could have easily found a way to ignite some interest in the Donovan clan with a little creative thought.
Additional follow up stories would have involved Noreen getting artificially inseminated with Doug's child (because Noreen wants a Donovan baby) only for Noreen and Mike to reunite and Mike raising Doug's son with the animosity between the brothers continuing to brew, Victor Vochek (the father) arriving and falling for Rose Donovan only for their wedding plans to fall apart when Victor confesses his first wife abandoned the family rather than dying like he claimed, and Doug's professional and romantic relationship with closeted football star Billy Rescott who roams around the old Slater mansion after being injured in a car accident that killed his lover while his wife Rita Mae Rescott attempts to infilitrate the Alden family through a friendship with Isabelle by working at the dress shop while planning her own career as a clothing designer.
10 hours ago, te. said:It's always sounded to me like Loving needed to choose what they wanted to focus on - young adults from different backgrounds at a university, with maybe parents as more of a recurring presence, or the class struggles of different families? If it's the later, then they needed to cut down the main families to two to be able to make a coherent 30 minute soap. If it's the former, then they could have students from varying families, but mostly keep other family members off screen and just have them drop in as the plot dictated.
It just sounds like trying to do too much and not really ending up with much at all in the long run.
I don't think any American daytime show on network television would ever truly allow itself to be set around a university or a high school because the assumed appeal for the younger demographic would be the student body who would eventually age out. The closest thing I've seen to this being attempted well was "Tribes."
"Loving" is at its most creatively viable with a college setting in late 1991 when there are absolutely no college students just adults working on the campus. Millee Taggart and Robert Guza don't do a terrible job either around 1993 with telling college based stories, but I'm not sure if they could have maintained the energy longterm. To be fair, not sure if Mary Ryan Munisteri could either.
47 minutes ago, Khan said:I've said the same thing about SaBa. I felt (and still feel) that featuring so many characters at the beginning hurt SaBa in the long run, because doing so didn't allow the viewers the opportunity to get to know them all well enough (to say nothing of their issues with the casting of many of them, lol). And I think the same could be said about LOVING.
There was much about GENERATIONS that I thought could have been improved upon - but that's for another thread.
"Santa Barbara" struggled more with casting than "Loving" did. I think the cast of "Loving" was more than serviceable, but like "Santa Barbara" they weren't utilized to their full potential. "Generations" needed the working class element. Doreen Jackson should have been carrying on with Ruth's working class brother-in-law or nephew.
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4 hours ago, j swift said:
@dc11786 I like the rich sister/poor sister setup of Rituals. Because for a thirty-minute show, they needed more reasons to have the different social strata interact than the university. So, it might have been cool if Rose and Gwen were sisters.
I feel like Loving was one of the last shows to use a class structure as the backdrop for the show. On Generations, everyone was upwardly mobile. The City had everyone living in the same building. And Sunset Beach had a rich family, but Annie was not driven by a desire to climb the social rankings like Ava or Erica. All of which is to say, that perhaps by the early 90s the Donovan's became irrelevant because class-based stories became out of fashion, and the Rescotts made them somewhat redundant. Not an excuse, nor a defense, just an observation.
On "Rituals," it was the case of a poor aunt Sarah and married into a rich family niece Christina. Given the age difference between Teri Keane and Christine Tudor Newman that dynamic might have been better to mimic. The only issue with that is the biological ties between the Gwyn's children and the Donovan clan. "Rituals" made sure that Christina's only child Jeff was her stepson.
"Santa Barbara" attempted the class structure backdrop with more of an "Upstairs/Downstairs" element with the Andrades working for the Capwells and the Perkins having various positions of servitude. Even Cruz was initially in C.C.'s employ. "Passions" also utilized the class structure, but not to the full extent.
The Donovans were essentially replaced by the Rescotts. As originally envisioned, I get the sense that the Rescotts were even farther down the social ladder literally living on the wrong side of the tracks. The Donovans were able to send two of three kids to college. I don't think the Rescotts were doing the same.
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Rituals
in DTS: Cancelled Soaps
Posted
Briefly scanning these videos... I'll do a deeper dive later. The first one appears to start with episode #65 because Patrick Chapin dies at the end of the episode. It appears that in the opening scene at Gallaghers that Alexia Robinson may be appearing as Claudia, one of the students at Haddon Hall who is friendly with Julia. The next episode I think might #66 but its a partial because you have Christina and Taylor arguing with Christina still in her nightgown.
The second video looks like it continues into December 1984 complete with Horton family ornaments... err Gallagher family ornaments.
The third video definitely jumps because you have crazy Nancy, the student in love with Mike who tires to kill Lacey. This was circa episode 130. The funeral for Eddie Gallagher should also be shortly after that. Margot Field (Sondra Currie) pops up and I don't think they brought her in until late April for the kidnapping story. There also might be a brief clip of Christina with Francine York as Taylor from august. Then it ends with the climax of the penultimate episode with Sarah Gallagher confessing to Michelle Davenport she is her mother and Patrick CHapin is her father.
It was nice seeing Stacey Anderson and Steve Burkow in the credits.
The end of the show looks like it improved immensely over the beginning.