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I am in the midst of watching some August-September, 1990. I think the show's individual episodes aren't always the strongest, but I am finding the overall story compelling enough to stick around. 

The Craig Gallery opening was a very fun event. Mary Gardner returns to Chicago and is discovered by Mama Viv a few days before the opening leading to the question about whether or not Jason and Monique will get the diamonds back. We see a bit of Mary's life on the farm with Vern and Junior. Mina Kolb does well with the folksy material, but I enjoyed her more as thegossipy  society matron she was when she started. Anyway, Vern and Junior realize that Mary came from money and Vern marries her. Mary shows up at the opening while on her honeymoon and everyone learns that Mary is alive and well. The sequence where Mary either regains her memory or breaks her charade is well staged with closeups on various characters. There is an attempt at a flirtation between Junior and Monique (they really have no clue what to do with Monique and Jason). The diamonds cannot be located in the moosehead so everyone returns to their ways, except for Vern who reveals to Mary he's hiding her diamonds in the coffee grounds. The ending of the farm arc is delightfully wicked with Mary promising her new family she's going to make them her infamous English trifle for the holidays. 

I don't care for the Brad Russell murder story so the fake out resolution with Christy shooting the drug dealer who supposedly killed him wraps this up quickly. The shift is to Jordan and Sam, which I like. Sam is involved in the opening and discovers that Jessica is up to no good. Jessica has been bedding down with Reginald and he convinces her he is a CIA agent. The Jessica angle is very foolish, but very in tune with what I think is NBC daytime at the time. Anyway, Sam again finds herself in the middle of a crime locked inside a treasure chest during the heist which Jordan and Reginald have orchestrated with Jessica's help. I did enjoy Rob learning that Jessica is bedding down with Reginald causing him to dump her. 

The strength still lies in Adam / Maya / Doreen / Martin story. Maya is now working for Martin which allows this to play a brief Martin/Maya flirtation. On a side note, they also tease a Jordan / Doreen relationship, which I think would have been interesting. Maya and Adam ended up going to bed together and make up, which is one of the nicer moments. 

Eric's trial takes up a lot of time, and I don't mind the chemistry between Randy Brooks and Debbi Morgan. I just don't like the court trial. I think there is some interesting angles (a celebrity football player on trial), but it is ultimately about a brand new character who killed an offscreen character. One of the nicer moments in the story is Ruth admitting that she gets a lot of her joy in life living vicariously through her children. 

The show isn't as good as it was in the winter/spring, but still nowhere near as dry as it was in the first few months. 

I don't think this has been posted in this thread yet, but it was posted several years back in the "Where Are They Now" thread. This is a music video that incorporates different found media which includes a fictional soap that mimics Generations style and stars Timothy Stickney as the Henry Marshall role. 

I am pretty sure there was a thread in the cancelled soaps thread about ¨Juliet Jones" many years ago. This version looks a little clearer, but I may be imagining things. I think it was being proposed as a syndicated show. 

I felt Gregory´s death left me with mixed feelings. The dialogue from Chase, Brookly, and Finn has projected Gregory was in such poor health that he wasn likely to survive the ceremony so him dying directly afterwards made sense. Still, I was hoping for something more dramatic like a euthanasia story with Tracy pulling the plug at Gregory´s request while keeping Finn and Chase in the dark with the inevitable fallout being Finn falling off the wagon into Alexis' bed and financially conscious Chase deciding to take Tracy to civil court because it was deemed that Gregory´s life insurance policy was void by Tracy´s actions leading to the quick dissolution of Brooklynn and Chase´s marriage.

What played out was rather beautiful. The tender intimacy shown by having Finn help undress his father before bed was something I never expected. I think it also showed how far Gregory´s decline had progressed.  Given Gregory´s desire to live and die with dignity, him passing peacefully in his sleep right after made sense. Finn hitting the bottle shortly after was also has been a nice beat. Liz´s decision to confide in Portia will lead to further conflict. It is all quite effective. Tracy´s arc in this story was incredibly powerful. I am not surprised that Tracy compared Cody to Gregory; I have felt they were trying to do something with Cody and Tracy, but I´m not clear what. I like that Tracy turned to Stella. That is a friedship I would like to see continue. 

The beating story works for me. I think Kristina can know her father is involved with violence and have a code of honor and still be shocked to see him senselessly beating a person who, by Kristina´s own understanding, has done nothing wrong. I think the beating, like the shooting, has been a nice umbrella story and I won´t complain about the attempts to suppress the case until it is dropped becasue jumping into prosecution kills. Though I am also waiting for the scene where Marshall reacts to white Heather having all her crimes washed away while he spent years being told his rage due to racial injustice was mental illness. So I am probably gonna have to eat crow. I am also hoping that Kristina´s request to have Dex not press charges will play into the inevitable Kristina / Josslyn conflict that could lead to medical danger. 

Dante´s reaction to Sonny was great. I think that whole arc has been beautifully built and Dante turnign on Sonny was strong. When Bernard leans into Sonnyś irrational paranoia I find the character more compelling than I typically do.  

The Ned / Lois scenes were beautiful. Lois leading Ned to the conclusion that Tracy loved Gregory was nice. Also, the scene was a deeper version of the scene between Gregory and Tracy from the wedding where Tracy stoically accepted that if she had met Gregory earlier in life that this day wouldn´t have happened.

Fergus Bryne was not the character I expected him to be. I figured they would at least attempt a flirtation given the Mason/ Julia history, but I found the short arc meaningful. Still would have rather had Fergus defending Tracy in my proposed civil suit with Alexis representing Chase, but I will allow myself to dream that alt GH on my own time. 

The Willow / Drew stuff from the previous week was intriguing. I definitely have gotten Willow / Drew sexy vibes for weeks for the proposed Ross/Holly/Blake redo. Before, I thought it was a round 2 story, but now I wonder if we don just have competing agendas: Mulcahey wanting Drew/Willow/Nina and Korte wanting Drew/Willow/Jordan. I like the positioning of Drew as this version of the characters seems very viable. I also want the Tomorrow Institute to be a fraud and that to impact the election campaign. 

Am I the only one that thought the domestic partner nickname may have been a sexual inneudo? I don´t hate T.J. and Molly. I do wish there was some more bones to their relationship to make them last longterm, but at this rate, I imagine they´ll fade back into the woodwork.

I´ve also felt that we were heading towards a Ava Jerome mysetery (murder? shooting into a coma?) several weeks back and this latest twist in Alexis' story feels like another beat.

I will be very sorry to see Mulcahey go. The show has been far from perfect, but the hints of potential in this canvas that manages to somehow be overpopulated and yet incomplete at the same time has been a pleasant diversion. Also, it was one I never expected to experience ever again. 

@Khan I am curious to see what happens what the dust clears in the summer of 1991 after Fred has been killed off, Angela shipped off to Portland, and the show settles on Bill / Julia and Jenny / Paul / Tracy / Ned. I genuinely enjoy Bill from the bits and pieces that I have caught from December 1991 through about March/April 1993. Bill and Julia work for me and Bill and Holly are serviceable, but nothing to write home about. Bill as Paul´s partner in crime and big brother to Jenny (who wavers between pathetic wimp and genuine spunky heroine) is a piece of the cog that makes early Riche´s General Hospital functional. 

I cannot imagine how they would have tried to incorporate Luke back into Port Charles without Laura, but I can only chuckle at the idea that they could have killed off Laura the same week they killed off Ceara on Loving. I´m not sure if a Luke and Holly redux would have worked any better than Bill and Holly.

Thanks @DRW50. I can´t recall if this is one I´ve seen. I know a bit of July, 1990, has popped up in the last few years, which I only recall because the tape trading collection of Generations has a gap of about mid-April, 1990 until early August.

The only story here generating any interest for me is the rivalry between Doreen and Maya. Maya using the secret of Danielle´s paternity should really be a game changer for Adam and Maya, but I am curious why this doesn´t seem to be the case. I do see the tension between Allen and Fox, which is really why the catfight several months later holds such weight outside it being wonderfully choreographed and acted by the two women involved. 

I like the conflict between Sam and Kyle over his career, which was a constant, though I find Stacey Nelkins' Chrissy such a cookie cutter NBC daytime spoiler without much depth or flavor. The original actress, Pat Tallman, played her with such flair. I don think any of the March, 1990, recasts worked for me (Nelkins, Robert Gentry, and Debbi Morgan). 

I know Morgan was a name, but I can´t help but wonder how Sharon Brown would have played the court material. I find Morgan as Chantal to be very cold. It is effective in the courtroom scenes to an extent (I just don´t care about the Eric Royal case), but the only moment of interest was when Brian Price (the reporter) kisses Chantal and there is a hint of jealousy from Eric. I think Eric had only been introduced two months earlier and was immediately thrown into a frontburner story (which makes sense now that I learned that Ericś story was originally in the bible). 

It´s a shame that the show lost its energy so quickly, but I can´t help but wonder if I would feel differently if others were in the roles. 

On 5/22/2024 at 8:08 PM, MrEdge80s said:

I know the person that recorded these GH tapes and they always cut the opening and closing credits which was maddening.  I have my own personal tapes I recorded from this time frame of December 1990 and all through 1991. As I was watching and recording GH daily through most of the 80s (and a big Monty fan)  to keep and save the show with end credits. Please let me know the specific day and possible date you want me to review the end credits from 90-91 and I can provide anything you want to know about them. 

Thank you for the very generous offer. I may take you up on that later. I'm a middle school teacher and we are three weeks away from graduation so I'm in the midst of planning for the ceremony. Most of my GH 1991 time is mostly casually watching material in the background while I am doing other things. 

Additionally, the issue seems to be that Monty doesn't take a production credit for a good chunk (all?) of the pre-Eckert material. Before Christmas, 1990, it is clear that Monty is back making little adjustments and the press stated her return to the studio was going to be December 4. So while I think you would be able to determine Norma Monty's writing credit, I suspect I'd have to dig into script filming dates to determine when Gloria returned. 

Any energy the show has had in the previous months is pretty much gone by late March, 1991. March is dragging. I think I am reaching the end of the first round of Monty's reshuffling. Tracy and Ashton have had a fight and Ashton seems set to leave Port Charles, but not before maneuvering Lucy out of the Q mansion before he too is set to exit. Harlan and Paul have both arrived so the business contingent is set. 

Part of the issue with the "new" General Hospital is the disconnect between not only the past three years and the present but between the present canvas. For example, the attempt to infuse the show with a sense of realism through the focus on social issues such as environmental concerns, the economic depression, and the life in post-Communist nations is that there is often no real connection to the characters. The environmental story is often the source of end of episode cliffhangers. Oh no, PCBs are leaking into the Port Charles River! Though, there is not really any impact other than conversation. Furthermore, while the decision to have the Quartermaine clan face the economic recession with cutbacks on personal spending may seem relevant, I cannot imagine the audience sympathizing with them why the audience themselves faces losing their homes while the Qs worry about whether or not they can dine out this week.  

The only characters from pre-Monty 2.0 getting much action (outside the Qs in their facing the economic recession with varying degrees of humility and humilitation) are Robert and Anna. Even the conflict at the heart of their relationship is over newcomer Mac, who I really don´t like at this point. Also, if I don´t hear the Mack the Knife cue again I´ll be quite okay. Robert´s accident at Delafield´s (someone tries to kill him by rigging the elevator) might be the last appearance by Angel. I am pretty sure that Mary´s last appearance was when she outed Bobbie in the Lucas tale when she told Tony that Katherine was just now asking Bobbie about adopting King as this had been Bobbieś cover story about meeting with Broxton. 

Speaking of Bobbie, I think we´ve reached the end of Bobbie/Bill. Angela spent an entire episode listening to Marge Pulaski attempting to matchmake her widowed daughter Carol with Bill, whcih has lead to a party at the Eckerts house where all the Pulaskis appear (the already mentioned Patrick, Marge, and Carol with the father Hank having a conversation with Fred). I am curious to see how long any of these secondary characters last. Carol is given a tragic backstory (truck driver husband Ralph Reynolds was killed while on the road). I could see how a Carol / Bill / Nancy triangle could have worked down the line (and I suspect the original plan was probably Nancy/Joey not Nancy/AJ). 

I really don´t know what to think of Michael Cole´s Harlan. I can´t tell if the actor just isn´t suited for daytime or if the character is purposefully shifty as the character doesn´t seem as together as I would think he would. I find Harlan very bumbling and seemingly hiding behind his persona rather than actually being someone with money like he claims. The only thing that has been noteworthy to me about Harlan is that he has made Bill his chief machinist, which clarifies how we got to the place where Bill was involved so heavily in the business sector.

I wonder how the character of Bill would have progressed had Tony Geary not been cast in the role as I´m not convinced Bill was tailor made for him. Bill is all over the canvas already. He has pulled up a PCB drum from the Tracy using his newly designed salvage device which has made him friends with the Greenbelts. He has seen Bobbie socially and went to bed with some Greenbelt friend of Jenny´s. He´s managed to secure and lose work as an automechanic. He has befriended a professor a tthe university to help devlop his salbage device. Now, he´s a machinist again and headed for a relationship with his high school sweetheart Carol Pulaski Reynolds. 

Thomas Coley appeared on "A Time for Us" as Craig Reynolds. 

From what's been made available in soap books, Dabney Coleman's Dr. Tracey Graham was the end run love interest of Susan Brown's Martha Ferguson. They even got married in the final episode after Martha was released from prison when it was suspected she had murdered Sylvia Bancroft, the biological mother of Martha's adopted son David Lockhart (Tony Geary). 

I've tried several times to watch and it never goes well. I'm pretty sure I even have VHS bootlegs I bought nearly 20 years ago that I wasn't able to make it through (the video quality was really bad and the stories weren't compelling even to late teen me).  

For me, the single generation of characters is a hindrance. I remember one scene by the pool that suggested there had been antics between the parents generation and I found that mildly intriguing. If they had leaned more into the duality of the parent-child dynamic and how the friend groups had been different, I think I could enjoy it a bit more. 

I found "Tribes" to be a much stronger youth focused show because they embraced the characters families and told stories about the family through the teen characters eyes while also allowing them to experience their own lives. 

in my early internet days, I remember there were several "Swans Crossing" fan sites that were pretty detailed. None for "Tribes." So I think my assessment was either not shared by the general public or syndicated "Swans" had reached a broader audience (I believe the show may have been rerun directly after its first syndication run). 

Faith was originally more of a neurotic young woman suffering from frigidity and a daddy complex. Not only did she seem overly devoted to her father, Ed, she had previously gone to bed with one of her professors, which had ended in disaster. I think Catlin did well with the neurotic nature of the character, but was unable to find ways to soften the character. The character's personality was probably shifted, as was so much of the show's foundation, because Frank lived. I'm sure it's somewhere in this thread, but I think Pat was originally involved with Delia post-Frank's death. This had to change when Frank lived. I think it's one of the reasons I have trouble with Pat / Faith as a couple. 

I feel like Karen Morris Gowdy grew into the role by early 1980. I thought Morris Gowdy came into her own after Tom died and Faith started to hit the bottle. I'm one of the rare people that really loved the 1980-1981 period with Faith and Frank's doomed from the start engagement leading into the nastiness between Faith and Jill. For too many years, there were attempts to change Faith to her core. I thought she was a bit of a spoiled neurotic and this came across more in that period than it had in previous years.

Hicks was probably a stronger actress, but I found her version, or the writing, a bit much. She played a lot of the Faith / Pat / Delia material. While I enjoyed Delia dropping the pregnancy bomb during the engagement party, I thought Faith looked like a fool thinking Delia would just give up the kid. I also had little use for Tom Desmond so that wasn't helpful. 

@Sapounopera I think there was a cast cull in early 1976 because the cast size was deemed too large. I don't remember who that was. I think the Bucky / Reenie romance and the Sam Cromwell character were part of the purge. Diana van der Vlis was supposed I'll and asked to be let out of her contract. Frank Latimore wasn't working in the role of Ed, in my opinion.

Kate Mulgrew became pregnant during her time on the show, but I cannot remember when that was or if that was in the first year or the second. I think there were some temporary Marys when Mulgrew was pregnant. 

The Kenneth Castle story was a variation of a story Labine and Mayer had cooked up on "Where the Heart Is" involving Christine Cameron, who had been stalked by her insane neighbor Will Watts. So the network may have demanded it, but it was definitely a story that Labine and Mayer had worked out before.

Even if it wasn't rape, the entire point of them having sex in Ocober, 2004, was to hurt Reva because of the closeness between Tammy and Reva. Jonathan seducing his own cousin was suppose to incite anger and rage in Reva. It wasn't like he just happened to fall for her and chose not to reveal who he was. He targeted her. To be fair, Tammy's motivation to bed Jonathan was also complicated. After Jonathan (as JB), provided Lizzie with the substance to drug Joey Lupo hoping to sleep with him, Tammy decided she needed to even the score by sleeping with someone else. Initially, Tammy propositioned Tony Santos, but he turned her down because he was pining over Michelle. Jonathan was just an easy choice. 

Furthermore, Tammy's reaction to the revelation involved a suicide attempt where she jumped into the river and had Sandy Foster pull her out claiming she just wanted to be clean. Tammy was definitely traumatized by the experience, and, in a modern world, Tammy's interest in Jonathan would more than likely be described as trauma replay than love. 

If the show had put any real effort into repairing the damage that Jonathan had done to Tammy, I might have been willing to go along with the pairing, but that was never even attempted. The only thing I think they did was have Jonathan save Tammy from a fire in her hotel room at the Beacon in July, 2005, or thereabouts. 

They briefly tested Jonathan/Marina in October, 2004, and I thought that might have worked better than Jonathan / Tammy and Marina / Danny, but that's just me. Also, I wanted Danny / Blake so there's that. 

4 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

Matt Bomer was the perfect age for Ben Reade tbh, and I recall there was definitely tension about him hanging out with the younger ladies like Marah and especially Marina even prior to him going psycho. Marah’s whole college story was the most unrealistic college story I have ever seen written on any medium to begin with anyways.

I’m always glad Bomer had the last laugh in all that mess. 

To clarify, my issue wasn't with Bomer's age, but rather the orbit of characters he was interacting with. Bill and Michelle represented a generation above Marah even though I don't think they were that far apart in real life. Due to aging, Michelle and Bill were played as older and, as such, it felt like Ben was younger even though Bill and Michelle were simply older. I don't remember a lot of Nancy St. Alban/Matt Bomer scenes prior to Cosgrove's arrival, but I wasn't watching with a lot of fidelity after the initial college story started. At one point, SoapNet aired "Ryan's Hope" in the 3pm timeslot and I was recording that over GL when I wasn't home because of track practice.

41 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

In general whether I agree or not, I have a great appreciation of your take on the show his week, but I have one pressing question. Has Trina been told WHAT possiblity?

The possibility that Heather might be released from prison. I remember Trina going to visit Laura and Ace, but I cannot remember if it had been said to Trina that Heather might be released. 

I find a lot of stuff just fades together or fades from my mind quickly. 

While I definitely find there is action missing, the plot that I find the least intriguing is the actual investigation into Pikeman. I just don't care. I think if the setup that was presented in the scripts by Cates/Jason was followed up on (Jason is a sitting duck out in the open) I would be more intrigued. Jason purposely pushing people away to keep them safe and not explain why could have produced at least some of the typical family conflict that PM seems to thrive on. For instance, had Jason basically told off Danny in order to keep him away from Jason's dangerous position only for Jake to confront Jason and really tell Jason off for being the dead beat dad he is only for Jake to be harmed in an attack on Jason could have been some nice angst. Instead, none of that dramatic tension is present. I think the Anna / Valentin dynamic in it has some potential for a psychologically complicated sexual dynamic that Finola Hughes plays well but the end basically leaves her alone so why bother if there isn't an obvious next stage to the story. 

The Blaze / Natalia stuff continues to work for me. I don't need Natalia spouting Bible verses or carrying around Chik-Fil-A to know what her views are. She was a woman from a generation of people who were raised to believe being gay was deviant behavior. I know many women like her among my parents generation who ask me (a middle school teacher) if there are cat litter boxes in the school bathrooms for kids that identify as felines. There are generally ignorant people out there. I do find the Natalia / Sonny stuff mildly intriguing only because I am not sure what the hell we are suppose to think. Sonny is unmedicated so I don't see this as a long-term relationship and I felt Ava's departure was too much of a non-event for it to be an actual end to that thread of the story though a bit of time has been spent building the Natalia/Sonny connection. 

Regarding the wedding date stuff, I liked that an added piece of the puzzle seems to be that Natalia's desire to attend as Blaze's plus one is also about her own need to be the center of attention (similar to how I intrepret a lot of Kris Jenner's behavior). The moment where Natalia was asking about the dress really hit that home for me. I am wondering if they are going to go with an actual medical diagnosis for Natalia like narcissistic personality disorder or something because her sense of importance in terms of her daughter is wild. But like @Vee said, she needs to start doing more. I am hoping she arranges some photo at the wedding with Adrian DeWitt with Blaze and some dude (maybe Dex, because I need Joss to go after Blaze to bring out another round of Joss/Kristina). At this point, I am ready for some actual moves being made on Natalia's part.

The Drew / Nina stuff is going well with Willow taking the New Tomorrow Institute spokesperson job with Drew arranging the interview with Nina and Willow. I feel like that angle is working, but I would escalate some of the stuff between Nina and Drew by pulling the cord and letting Drew and Jordan start seeing each other romantically. Maybe PM & EK want to let Nina get some footing on the ground after signing her divorce papers, which I could respect if any of the other stories were moving, but they aren't. I'd throw a fundraiser for the city project in June and let Jordan attend as Drew's date and let Nina lose her mind. 

I liked that Jordan brought up that Laura's potential support of Heather could come back to bite her with the consituents of Port Charles. I think having a conversations around whether or not Heather should be absolved is interesting if more people were calling out the possibility that this is just an act, like Portia did. It would also have had more impact if Marshall's story had been allowed to play out after the racism reveal to show that even though Marshall was never ill he is still struggling to regain his life, while white Heather who has murdered people is getting a free pass. I wish the Ashfords would come to the forefront in this element and lean into the Trina / Spencer connection and allow Laura to be more torn. Has Trina been told this possibility yet? That is some angst that could be played out over several days. 

Gregory and Tracy's scenes the week before were really well done with Tracy being regretful and Gregory reminding Tracy she had time to fix things while alluding to his own impending death. The fight this week about Jackie with Gregory and Finn while Finn runs to Alexis, Gregory's current romantic interest, works for me. I don't even like Easton, but I am curious if Finn and Alexis will end up hitting the sheets before, or after, Gregory's eventual demise. I am still hoping that Gregory asks Tracy to help him die with dignity leading to some infighting between Chase and Brooklyn with Chase deciding to bring charges against Tracy in a civil trial (at the very least) out of anger over Tracy's interference, in Chase's mind. 

The beat about Kristina potentially wanting to keep the baby was unfortunate though I thought it provided a nice moment for Diane to tell Alexis that she needs to stay out of it, which I don't see Alexis being able to do. 

I like how they are still maintaining the stance that Sonny wants to be philanthropic and keeps getting shot down. Jordan being the next one was nice as it led me to believe that the tax return scene may have meant something is coming down the line there. I may be wrong just as it won't seem to matter that Willow stole the meds from the hospital if she's no longer nursing unless the scandal causes harm with her new spokesperson job. 

I'm hoping this coming week will be a bit more exciting, but I won't be too shocked if the best we get is strong conversations between characters with lots of potential for something more.

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I didn't really care about their pairing, but I didn't object to Bill and Beth, probably because I never saw Cosgrove as the Bill I cared about anyway. That's also why the attempt at pairing up Bill and dullard Nancy St. Alban did not mean anything to me - that wasn't the Bill or Michelle anyone needed to see together.

It started as Bill and Lorlei, and I thought anything to do with Lorlei was a mistake. When Lorlei's diary came out, I remember Chamberlain suggesting that Lorlei might have had a child out there somewhere and I didn't need to watch any of that play out. 

I didn't mind Nancy St. Alban, but she wasn't the most energized Michelle. 

2 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

I was fine with Cosgrove during his 1st run, and I remember SOD named him as Best Recast (while that putrid Marah actress was named as Worst Recast lol). That said the biggest issue I believe Cosgrove and St. Alban (subpar acting aside until her final year) had was they were both wayyy too old to be playing Bill and Michelle by at almost a decade and they looked it too. Yikes. What was the casting director thinking at the time. 

I liked Cosgrove. I thought he and Crystal Chappell played well off each other, but I don't remember the characters having much interesting story other than the initial pairing. 

I remember watching a scene in 2002 during the wedding festivities with Daniel Cosgrove, Nancy St. Alban, and Matt Bomer in a scene together as childhood friends and thinking this was odd. Though, I remember thinking Ben was being played too young as he had been involved in the Marah teen set when they went to college when he probably should have been a generation above. 

2 hours ago, Dan said:

So speaking for just myself, there are a couple of reasons.

1) I could never get past the rape. Jon concealed his identity and effectively raped Tammy and then we were all just supposed to forget about it. And let's not forget the cousin angle. 

2) Honestly the acting and the almost zealous over praising of the coupling (that ignored point #1) . Between SG being kind of just there and TP chewing every piece of scenary he could, I could not get over it. 

And BTW yes Otalia was generally awful. I'm kind of glad Olivia/Holly never happened. I'm pretty certain the sexual tension and chemistry would have melted all of our TV sets. 

I loved the seduction story. It was dark and messed up, and it worked at deconstructing Tammy as a character. I also didn't see them as endgame and became very frustrated when it became clear that Kreizman was going that route. Jonathan never tried to make things better with Tammy. It was just Tammy whitewashing what happened until Jonathan did something else. By the time they decided Jonathan needed to embarrass Tammy on her wedding day to Sandy by having him arrested for bigamy, I pretty much knew that Kriezman was going to die on the hill of Tammy and Jonathan (even though I should have realized this many months earlier)  

I was more upset that Tammy was suppose to ignore everything that had happened without doing any of the work to make things better. Jonathan hurt Tammy over and over and that wasn't a fun situation to watch. 

I also didn't care much for Otalia. I thought Natalia was such a bland character (as so many new additions under Wheeler and Kriezman were) and pairing her with Olivia, who had, at one point, had so much life, was deflating. I also didn't like that Olivia had Gus' heart because I felt that had the audience went south, they would have killed Otalia with Olivia realizing her feelings were complicated because of Gus' feelings for Natalia. 

19 minutes ago, slick jones said:

So glad I'm not alone in my Otalia opinions. Chappell's need to keep that fanbase after TGL was cancelled --- THIRSTY and NEEDY. I liked Chappell in the first Carly run on DAYS and as quirky Maggie on OLTL. I could even take her in doses as Olivia -- but after a while, the character ran its course, and being around screaming Buzz and family O_O.

Putting Olivia in a triangle with Frank and Buzz was a nadir that I thought couldn't be surpassed until Olivia and Natalia and Frank. 

I am a Chappell apologist, but even I couldn't deal with the Venice stuff. I appreciate that Chappell put out a product that was geared to a section of the audience that felt neglected and provided opportunities for soap veterans. That product wasn't for me. 

On 5/8/2024 at 12:43 PM, carolineg said:

I know it's been said before, but I think the Eckerts sound interesting in theory.  If you drop the whole Tony Geary/Spencer angle and just hired a few dynamic actors for Jenny and Bill it may have worked.  

I personally find the working class PC stuff boring and annoying.  I have no idea how relevant it was in 1991 for the audience though.

I don't think reigniting class conflict in Port Charles was a bad idea, but Monty acted like there was no class distinction prior to her arrival. Charlene's brood and the Grecos were working class. The Brownstone crew represented the more upwardly mobile / middle class social strata. And the Quartmaines were the wealthy. I think she should have worked more within the existing structure. 

I think there are some comparisons between the Eckerts and Charlene's brood. The Eckerts were cousins to an existing character (Bobbie) just as Decker and Colton were cousins to an existing character (Lucy). The older sibling (Colton/Bill) is more grounded while the younger one is more reckless (Decker/Jenny). Like the Eckerts, the Simpsons were also mixed up with the Quartermaines. When watching the Edge / Decker business partner dynamic, I felt like this was similar to the later dynamic between Bill / Paul. 

On 5/8/2024 at 12:57 PM, BetterForgotten said:

Other than Marland and Pat Falken Smith, Monty never had strong writers supporting her ideas. The character work during the later part of her first stint and during the entirety of her second stint left so much to be desired. 

I remember an interview when Wendy Riche first came on board and threw some unintentional shade about Gloria hiring her sister to write the show, and that it would take some time to rebuild the show, and she wanted to move it into a more character based direction. 

The final weeks of Monty 2.0 (late December 1991 - late January 1992) started to get better in terms of the character work in my opinion leading up to the arrival of Linda Grover as Norma Monty's writing partner. 

As @Toups pointed out, Riche ends up leaving the show without a headwriter from mid-March until mid-June so she most likely ended up shaping the show in the direction she wanted with the introductions of Jagger and Karen, the pairing of Bill and Holly, the medical malpractice involving David Langton's death, and the ongoing emphasis on the Ned / Jenny / Paul / Tracy quad. I do think Riche made the right choices as it allowed the show to regain an emotional depth that had long been missing. 

On 5/8/2024 at 2:06 PM, titan1978 said:

I liked what it ultimately lead to, which was people having jobs besides being former spies and cops or the hospital. We had Mac and Felicia opening the Outback, Jagger boxing at Marco’s gym, Sonny’s seedy strip club, the Charles street stories, characters living in modest means again. It helped to reestablish the Quartermaines as the haves in Port Charles society. It opened up possibilities. Riche took what Monty was trying to do and actually did it, even with Levinson it was better than Monty’s first 6 months.

I think eliminating the spy network material was a smart move and moving the stuff back towards the hospital and the courtroom. The stuff that I am not looking forward to in 1992 will be the remnants of that (Holly/Paloma). I like the Ryan Chamberlain stuff that I've seen (even if it can be a bit more melodramatic than even I can take). Riche did the opposite of Monty. Instead of firing everyone, she fires almost no one. 

49 minutes ago, VelekaCarruthers said:

I'm rewatching end of Paul Rauch era and first few Conboy episodes where the writers finally break up Beth and Bill Jr. Wow, I had forgotten that monumentally icky and stupid coupling. Was that a Millee Taggart/Lloyd Gold pairing or a Gold/Dunn?

IIRC, Raunch is out for about a month before Conboy arrives with Mary-Alice Dwyer Dobbins actings as de-facto or interim executive producer. I want to say Raunch left in mid-November, but I could be wrong. 

Bill and Beth started when Daniel Cosgrove arrived as Bill for Reva and Josh's wedding in June, 2002. I'm pretty sure that was when Millee Taggart and Lucky Gold were writing. I agree with you on Bill/Beth. I wasn't watching much in early 2002 and tuned back in for the wedding/anniversary episodes with the returns of Ed, Vanessa, Bill, and Trish. I remember seeing Bill talk about his mysterious love/wife and then the quick reveal that it had been Lorlei/Beth and I turned it off. 

We discussed late 2002/early 2003 within the last year or so. December 2002-February 2003 has a lot of very strong material. 

Lena and Fred Eckert are siblings. Fred wasn't happy when Lena married Tim Spencer, Bobbie, Luke, and Pat's father. That was the source of the supposed feud between the Eckerts and the Spencers. I'm in early March, 1991, and Ruby (at bequest of Bobbie) has decided to make an ongoing commercial order from Eckert's for the diner, which should end some of the bad blood. What wasn't resolved will end in late May, 1991, when Fred Eckert has his heart attack. 

I suspect that the Eckerts were from some soap that Monty had spent the past year or so prior to returning to GH trying to launch. She was living in Portland with her husband and was trying to establish a production facility where she was going to develop said show. When ABC signed Monty, a development deal for a new soap was attached, but I'm not sure if ABC was really ready to cut the cord with "Loving" yet. Anyway, I suspect the Eckerts were the central family of that show. 

I am wondering if the Eckert/Spencer connection was a result of signing Tony Geary rather than developing a story for Tony as a new character. I think Bill (accused of sabotage) and Bobbie (a pariah because of the baby swap) had some potential on paper, but even eliminating the cousin element there is no sexual chemistry between Geary and Zeman. 

Most of the references this spring to Eckerts has been in relation to donuts. There is supposedly a late night donut window (according to Kristina) and Sam or someone brought donuts from Eckerts' to Dante's homecoming. 

March, 1991 is already becoming a bit of a drag. Everything is either an Eckert story or Mac/Robert related. The resolution of Dawn's murder happens fairly quick (Frisco found a tape of Edge bludgeoning Dawn and it's announced that Edge had been found murdered). There is a bit around the ELQ end of the fallout of the sinking of the Tracy, but it is very community based (how will this effect the poor (offscreen), working class people of Port Charles. I think the setup is for Ned and Jenny, but maybe that's just me reading into what was coming down the pike. 

On 4/28/2024 at 3:36 PM, carolineg said:

Thank you so much for your detailed explanations as always.  I find out so much from you.  In your opinion would you have kept Cheryl and/or Edge?  I have never heard much positive about either, but it seems both have potential.  

I think there was potential for both characters prior to Gloria Monty returning to the credits in February, 1991, even though she was back in the studio in early December, 1990. I think Edge's potential was long gone by the time Monty is in the credits, but Cheryl should have been kept around as a roadblock for Anna/Robert at the very least. Could you imagine Cheryl hooking up with Mac just to get to Robert? 

Palumbo sets up Cheryl and Edge for several different scenarios which were equally interesting to me, but never crossed their paths the way I would. Palumbo brought Cheryl Stansbury back in September, 1990, at the bequest of Tracy Q as she is trying to build some business acumen and take control of ELQ. She wants Cheryl as her financial advisor as she had previously advised Edward, who is "dead" at this point in the story. Cheryl comes back and the set up is clear that Robert is going to be the father of Cheryl's baby, but there is also a brief flirtation/chem test between Cheryl and Ned Ashton. Tracy wants Ned/Cheryl so that Ned will get his mind off Dawn. Cheryl and Ned interact a bit at ELQ but it never goes very far. 

With the Robert thread, it would have been easy to tell an Edge / Anna / Robert / Cheryl story with Edge being a real Jerome claiming he is an imposter because he wants Anna. Anna and Robert growing closer because of Robin's machinations and desire to see her parents reunite. Cheryl aligning herself with Edge hoping that Edge can win Anna so she can have Robert. Eventually, I would have Edge convince Cheryl to keep custody of baby Lucas she should present a stable family life (either leaning into Cheryl's mental instability or even allowing Edge to gaslight Cheryl). I'd have Cheryl and Edge unite to raise Lucas, claiming he's a Jerome, so that they could get the inheritance money that Lucy had wanted. I'd have had Lucy press Ned to pursue Cheryl as well in order to get information about the inheritance (as she was the original heir to the diamonds because she "found" them). Cheryl and Edge would cause conflict for Robert / Anna as they both begin to suspect something is amuck. 

The other possibility presented was going with an Edge / Dawn / Decker / Ned / Cheryl situation. In this alternate scenario, I would still have Edge pursuing Dawn because he thought she had money but then allowing Ned to be jealous of Edge's relationships with both Dawn and Cheryl, with Decker's business relationship with Edge complicating things as Decker and Edge started to present themselves as more serious power brokers in Port Charles' business community through the involvement in their ad agency. 

Ultimately, Riche/Levinson (and possibly Maralyn Thoma, if she was still there) made the right choice in killing off Cheryl and presenting a custody fight between Tiffany and Bobbie over Lucas. 

***

I'm reaching the end of February, 1991. The Monty revamp is wild. It is completely different show. The issue that I am mostly seeing is the emphasis on the Eckerts has destabilized the existing cast. One of the issues is that the show seems to want to present class conflict between the Eckerts vs. the Quartermaines, which I find intriguing, in theory. Though, I think part of the issue is that the size of the Eckert and Quartermaine sets means that both sets cannot be used in the same episode. Most of February Quartermaine scenes were set in the Q gatehouse, which I suspect was so that Monty and team could have the Eckert sets constructed. 

In regards to the Eckerts themselves, they need work. It seems like Norma Monty is writing "Ryan's Hope" fan fiction with an Italian/German working class family who run a bakery. The family is loud and boisterous and talking a lot about how they are a family without really defining the characters as well as they should. Sly is the cute kid. Fred the strict father. Angela the mediator mother. Joey is a womanizer. Jenny is flaky jumping from cause to cause. Bill is a man trying to pick up the pieces of his life after losing his job and his wife (Nancy has recently left him it seems). The two second generation Eckerts have potential. Jenny has recently been humbled when she decides to crash the Quartermaines formal function thinking it is a society bash and not Dawn's memorial reception. Bill seems to be trying to navigate the thinly drawn feud between the Eckerts and Spencers while also trying to defend himself against sabotage charges. 

One of my bigger issues with the Bill story is it runs directly up against Decker falsely being accused of murdering Dawn at the end of the video piracy plot featuring the Berlin gangsters. Bill and Decker having to both defend themselves at the same time seems like overkill. Though, it may be worth noting (if I didn't already) that it is the Wish version "Die Hard" villains in the piracy story who first make mention of Eckerts bakery when the main villain (Hans?) goes on the campiest of hedonistic declarations about how wonderful the Eckert streussel is while threatening to end Edge's life. 

The goodbyes are constant. Colton, Carla, Frankie, and Charlene are all shipped off to Colton's cattle ranch in Santa Mauro while Decker and Dawn are left to die at Body Heat. Simone has escaped to Bucharest to help the war orphans leaving Tom and the Hardys to raise Tom, Jr. At least Steve and Audrey get some reflective scenes raising Tom Jr. Edge is caught by the German villains after bludgeoning Dawn to death. We still have Decker left to depart and then at some point I think Larry Ashton fades out, but I am not exactly clear when that is. 

Even in the exiting stories, the Eckerts are centered. When Dawn and Decker get engaged, at the bakery, it is done in a wideshot so we can see clearly Fred and Angela Eckert watching the event. If there were more depth to the family, I could enjoy it, but so many scenes are just them yelling. It's like that was the defining trait of working class families on soaps in the early 1990s (Addie Walsh treated the Slavinski/Rescott crew similarly on "Loving.") The sinking of the ELQ Tracy would have meant more if the characters had appeared prior to all this heightened drama. 

Also, a lot of the secondary players are starting to find there way into the story. Finian arrives as part of Mac's community service after hitting Guy Lewis and Scorpio while alsoscratching Frisco. Stacey Cortez is appearing very early as Sheila Cantillion (in a scene at the hospital with Joey trying to help him get a job). Joseph Whipp I think appeared in late January as Marty the cannery foreman who will appear through at least March, 1992. Noah Blake has started as Patrick Pulaski, who I suspect was suppose to be a slightly bigger role. He was working at the cannery and was fired by Ned only to work at Wyndham's as a mannequin repairman. He's Jenny's initial partner in crime who Jenny drags to the Qs with Jenny's intention for reading the Qs for filth for the excess and greed. It is a beautiful moment when Anna (who knows Jenny through Robin) relays the information that this is a funeral reception and pompous Jenny is humbled.  Patrick's sister Carol has yet to be introduced, but she becomes a love interest for Bill briefly. Their father was smentione,d but I don't think seen. The family is Polish-Irish because it seems a Monty mandate is we know everyone's ethnicity and talk about things like the Gulf War, PCB chemicals, Romanian orphans, the recession, etc. 

To at least compliment something, I do appreciate the more serious tone that the material is presented in. I just find it very hard to cover with the story because it's  all deconstruction or construction. It's very odd. 

I thought today's episode was very tight. 

I don't like all the short scenes the show does, but cutting from Liz and Portia at the hospital talking about their worries about their parenting only to lead into Natalia just being the meddling mother worked well for me. Later, having Portia asked by Curtis about his work with Drew on the fitness division felt like we were seeing the internal conflict that Portia was just talking about as a mother in action in her marriage.

Natalia works for me as the source of conflict. She is homophobic, but she doesn't think she's homophobic. I am pretty sure I called it a few weeks back when I said Natalia would use the pregnancy as another reason to keep the couple apart. Natalia is a woman who has controlled every step her daughter has taken. This must be killing her. I do hope that Natalia starts actively doing things to undermine the relationship, but I'm content with what is going on right now. No one is buying Natalia's line of thought. Alexis has dismissed her. Brook Lynn has pointed out that the ideas are outdated. The one issue I do see is whether or not Blaze/Allison is worth all this trouble. I think the actress is growing, or I am just accepting the work she is putting out there. I don't know which. 

I am enjoying the character based drama in the surrogacy story with the conflict being the connection to Sonny with the sprinkles that Kristina is becoming attached to the child. I appreciate that there are finally T.J./Molly scenes because so much of their story has been told in separate scenes. Though, like many of the stories, there will need to be some action at some point. 

Drew and Nina continue to be fun. I think the sexual tension before Curtis' phone call was good. I am enjoying them as thick as thieves, but I will be curious to see how things progress once Jordan is thrown into the mix. 

I think someone mentioned a shift in Aiden's story from the liking a guy to the bullying, but I sorta hope that they are linked. What if the bully is the guy that Aiden likes and has decided to avoid outing himself by targeting Aiden? I recently saw the film "Monster" that played with that issue. 

I still like the potential of where things are going, but I will admit it isn't always the most exciting way to get there. 

31 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Was there any real reason given by Monty or whoever on why the choice was made to make Julian Lucas's father?  Was it to free up Robert?  Because from everything I have read and seen it doesn't make a lot of sense and wasn't terribly popular.

I am at Valentine's Day, 1991. Cheryl gets the baby back the last week of January/early February just as Norma Monty starts to be credited (it looks like she might be credited late January as there looks to be a name underneath Palumbo's but the credits are cut off in my episodes). On V Day, Cheryl tries to get some hairstylist to do her hair, but the man chooses Anna instead. Cheryl and her frizz try to win over Robert, but he's out with Anna and Cheryl, instead, accepts a job offer in Phoenix and departs town after sharing a quick goodbye with Tiffany and Sean. Monty clearly wanted to wipe the slate clean. 

I think the long plan under Palumbo/Hardy was a repairing of Anna and Robert. The emotional climax of the Faison/Casey the Alien/Crystal Caper is Sean revealing on his hospital bed that he arranged the destruction of Anna and Robert's marriage years ago through some scheme involving the Swede and possibly an affair between Anna/Faison. Actually, I suspect the original plan was to reveal that original plan was to play the beat that Robin may be Faison's daughter as the timing of the affair and Robin's age suggested he was a contender. This was never explored although a great deal of time was spent on a relationship between Robin and Faison as they were collaborting on a book together in the summer of 1990. 

Given what plays out onscreen, the only thing that makes sense was that Palumbo/Hardy planned on revealing that Robert was Lucas' father. There is a scene in September 1990 between Scorpio and Frisco that alludes to both Scorpio having more children and Frisco's past relationship with his own father. Then, Broxton reveals that the number on Victor Jerome's diamond pouch is the number of Cheryl's file with Dr. Perry, who sold the baby to Bobbie. The diamonds were Victor's insurance policy when he got out of jail. The only reason that makes sense about this is if Victor planned to blackmail Robert to leave him alone with evidence of the baby's location. If it was a Jerome grandchild, why allow him to float around?

I think the plan for Evan Jerome, Jr. was for Edge to be Evan. I think Hardy's departure may have lead to some changes as there were clearly sweeping changes happening even before Hardy is out the door. Evan may have even been in the works when Palumbo/Kenney were EP because of Duke's role in Evan's father's death. Edge should have been an intriguing obstacle for Anna, but instead, he is quickly abandoned. I thought the potential of a Cheryl / Robert / Anna / Edge scenario was very intriguing given the fact that Lucas was either Robert or Julian's. 

Cheryl also weaponizes Lucas' paternity in her final days trying to get a reunion with Robert because he is their son. It makes Bobbie more sympathetic because even though she lied I don't think she was using Lucas to keep her marriage together. She lied to keep Lucas, not Tony. I'm glad that Riche revives the custody battle over Lucas with Bobbie/Tiffany. After watching this all play out, I think it is a brilliant move. 

11 hours ago, Vee said:

I think so too, but I really don't need Jordan around period; she's a dead character. I do suspect that in the short term she may be in the mix a bit to seem like the respectable option in his life vs. Drew's messy, dysfunctional fascination with Nina, but I think Drew and Nina is where it's going. I also think they have begun to build Nina up to not needing a man again (maybe for the first time in her life).

I don't know what to think of Jordan, to be honest. The actress doesn't wow me, but the writing hasn't really made the character pop either. I could take or leave Jordan. At present, she feels like a piece of the bigger puzzle. I suspect she will be around for a bit (at least a few months) with the surrogacy story in place, the hint of a romance with Drew, and the focus on the activity in the mayor's office. However, given that there was a focus on having Laura and Jordan reveal their tax information, I could totally see someone using that information to create some sort of corruption scandal that would knock Laura and/or Jordan out of office especially since Laura has now declared war on Sonny. 

I was referring specifically to the fact that Nina has asked Drew to help her rebuild her relationship with Willow. Like most of you, I agree this will ultimately come to bite Nina in the ass when Drew decides that he can have both the mother and the daughter. I see the potential of the Nina/Drew/Willow/Michael quad being a variation on the old Tracy/Paul/Jenny/Ned story. 

Overall, right now I feel like there is a real attempt to make all the pieces fit on the canvas in order to build a level of cohesion that wasn't present several months ago. Some of those pieces might be removed as time goes on, but if Trina and T.J. end up becoming a thing (which I think they might), I think Jordan might have a position. The potential Ashford family drama would benefit from Jordan's presence given the family's history of paternity for both T.J. and Trina. I'd also bring back Marcus Taggert to help in the takedown of Sonny, toy with a relationship between Jordan / Marcus post-Jordan/Drew, and let the drama hit the fan. 

Made my way through January, 1991, quickly. It was easy because the show was pretty compelling thanks to two major storylines: (a) the Lucas saga and (b) the end of Lucy's pregnancy. In the main plot, Cheryl ended up in the hospital on New Years' Eve because of an injury she got in a fight with Tiffany leading Tiffany to learn that Tiffany has been hoarding Christmas presents for her husband Robert and son Robbie. I definitely think Robert was at this stage suppose to be the baby's father. Why else would the Jeromes have kept the baby secret? It only makes sense if Lucas was Cheryl and Robert's child. 

Jackie Zeman is amazing playing all the facets of Bobbie as she desperately attempts to keep the truth from Cheryl about Lucas' identity. Scorpio is onto Bobbie as she has been in cahoots with Broxton, the Jerome attorney (her knows the baby is Cheryl's). As a result, he blackmails Rita Lloyd Jones out of Port Charles, but not before Rita implies to Tony in a letter that Bobbie is having an affair. The back and forth continues until Frisco lies for Bobbie, after also catching her in Broxton's room during an arrest. Bobbie now has Frisco and Ruby in her scheme. Eventually, Robert learns and even keeps quiet for an episode or two until taking the baby and giving it to Cheryl. 

Once given the baby, Cheyl continues her crazy claiming the baby is Robert, but a paternity test shows its a lie. Then, we get a cat fight between Bobbie and Cheryl over Lucas. Any real energy this part of the story could have is avoided because this is the uncredited Monty era before the big revamp. 

The story with Lucy's baby is smaller, but equally powerful. They quickly have Scotty quit ELQ, dump Tracy, the Qs set up a trust for the baby, and then Scotty reveals to Alan in Lucy's presence that the baby is his. Lucy loses the baby as a result. There is a suggestion that Alan may be lead to physical violence (there is a montage of the Monica/Rick/Alan story randomly) leading to Lucy and Scott filing a suit against Alan to bring criminal charges against him blaming him for the baby's death. In the end, it's a money scheme, but it loses steam because Lucy is shipped out of town on a cruise so Herring can go on maternity leave. 

In what I'm watching now, there is some Scotty / Bobbie scenes that makes me thinkthey maybe they should have gone this route. 

The Monty mandate that we talk about the real world has lead to a ongoing subplot about the crisis facing Romanian orphans who have been liberated by the fall of communism but still face health issues such as disabilities and HIV/AIDS. Simone is immediately overwrought leading to her exit story. 

Other exit stories also involve the real world. Colton and Carla are planning their return to Santa Mauro, where El Presidente has given Colton a cattle ranch. First, Colotn has to sell Body Heat, but because of the recession is a hard sell, figuratively and literally. If there was a drinking game where they mentioned the recession, you'd be drunk pretty quick. There is lots of talk about the economy. It has also led to Monica, newly returned to the Q mansion, making sure that the whole family is put on notice. The Tracy branch is regulated to the gatehouse and the rest of the family is also placed on a budget. It's fun set of scenes, but it isn't sustainable. It at least reestablishes the family as a unit. 

The other transition story is the piracy act between the newly reimagined businessman Colton and the newly stripped down Edge. Edge's romantic interest in both Dawn and Anna is abandoned and he is now strictly a sleazy businessman. It works given the nature of where they are going. 

In what I'm watching now, Jenny Eckert has made her first appearance. So I am into the true Monty II era.