dc11786

59 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

I'm not an expert on Rick's history, so it this Diana the same character as Diana Lamont?  If not, it seems odd the show would have two different characters named Diana at almost the same time.  By the time I started watching daily, it was the Labine era and Diana was married to Charles Lamont and I believe having an affair with Jamie Rollins.  

Also regarding Rick's son Hank -- you mentioned he was born around 1963, but if I remember correctly, by the late-1970s Hank had not appeared as an adult.  Is that correct?  That is unusually slow for a soap opera legacy character to grow up.   

Sorry, I meant Barbara Sterling and Rick Latimer´s marriage.  

I don´t think either Hank had been aged. Tess and Bill´s son Johnny Prentiss was also still a child but I believe he was born a few years later (late 60s). The age gap was probably reduced and I think they were about the same age. 

Years ago, I thought I read that either Johnny or Hank were suppose to return had the show continued and that Peter Reckell was cast, but that is strictly rumor. 

19 hours ago, Khan said:

Suzi lost so many people in her life: Doug, Eunice, John, Wendy (in a way).  She also was abused and manipulated by Warren (and in my two scenarios above, she suffers what might be, for many women, the cruelest injustice of all: the inability to have children of her own).  Jo appeared to be the only constant in her life.  Then, when it looked as if she finally would have some happiness and stability of her own with Cagney and Jonah, what happens?  She gets killed.  It is as if TPTB lived to make that poor girl suffer.  That is why I gave Suzi some agency in both my scenarios, because if there is one that I cannot stand, it is a female character who is victimized by everyone around her and does nothing to take control of her own life.

Ralph Ellis and Eugenie Hunt´s Suzi is purposefully naive in order for her not to catch on about Warren´s involvement in the gun running. By the time this all comes to light, Hunt and Ellis are days away from being out themselves. There is a scene very early in David Cherrill´s run where Suzi (still studying dance) is in the living room of hers and Wendy´s apartment doing a routine to Sheena Easton´s ¨Modern Girl¨ suggesting that there is an understanding that Suzi needs to be independent. Of course, about eight weeks later she and Warren are married 

Cherill doesn´t do much with Suzi in what I have seen, but there is a gap in my material (that has since materialized online). Cherrill may also have decided to deemphasis Suzi in this period if Gibbs was asking to be let out to film the ¨Fame¨ pilot.

I think it is Joanna Lee and Gary Tomlin who decide that Suzi wants to be a social worker, which I think was a smart move. I just watched a nice scene earlier today from July, 1983, where Suzi explains to Kristin and Wendy that she has always examined people´s motivations because of her mother´s death at such a young age. Given the community focus that Lee/Tomlin were reviving from the Corringtons era, I think Suzi would have fit in well with the grand vision of the show.  

The bigger issue with Tomlin´s Suzi is the turnover from Gibbs to Swankhammer to Eoff. Swankhammer is green and doesn´t have the energy to be a leading character. So her Suzi seems to be on the sidelines. Eoff gets to play some of the meatier material right away, but than the turnover in writers and producers that Suzi ends up in an insta couple with newbie Cagney, which, quite frankly, doesn´t work for me even if Ashford and Eoff have decent chemistry. 

Teri Eoff just never is given the chance to play a version of Suzi with much bite. Motherhood sorta keeps Suzi from being on the front burner and even when she is given a chance to be active (killing Warren) she has to be on edge of hysteria in order to do it. I like Mayer Avila and Braxton´s work, but they should have spent some time rebuilding Suzi as a person before going off and marrying Cagney and Suzi or at least have both characters realize that rushing into marriage was a mistake and fraught with conflict. 

I know people enjoy Long and Walsh´s run, but they seemed very out of touch in big areas. Killing off Suzi for a Cagney/Evie story is insane. 

19 hours ago, Khan said:

Actually, @dc11786, I could see a scenario where Stephanie and Wendy believe each other to be responsible for shooting and/or killing Warren.  Stephanie would confess immediately to the crime in order to protect Wendy, whom she believes to be the culprit; and Wendy, not realizing why her mother has confessed, would be as stunned as everyone else when she does.  It is only later, as mother and daughter are alone and able to talk, when Stephanie and Wendy realize that neither was responsible for the crime.  But there is a twist: in order to be cleared of all charges, Stephanie needs Wendy to corroborate her new story (that she confessed only because she believed her daughter to be guilty), but Wendy refuses, because doing so would mean confessing to a major secret (such as Warren faking his own death for reason or another).  Essentially, Wendy is fine with allowing her mom to continue taking the rap for a crime neither have committed; and even though Jo begins to suspect that neither mother nor daughter is being completely honest with the authorities; and even though Stephanie is heartbroken over his daughter's actions, Stephanie still refuses to admit the truth to Jo or to anyone else.

And the whole time this is going on, no one even suspects that Warren's killer/"killer" is none other than Kristin, lol

I think the Stephanie / Wendy plot sounds like the kind of thing each of them would do. Stephanie was always trying to set up Warren to get him out of her girls' lives. If Wendy learned of this after Warren´s murder, Wendy could have done it out of revenge. Wendy could agree to testify in Stephanie´s defense before destroying Stephanie´s claim on the witness stand and then going later to Stephanie´s jail cell stating that this is what she gets for ruining her relationship with Warren. 

I would have Jo be the one to discover the truth to clear Stephanie. I like the idea of Kristin being her brother´s murderer, but what would you have had as her motivation?

I think there was also some space to explore Kristin and Warren´s background a bit more. Warren had been a punk in Detroit before going off to Los Angeles with Ringo and getting involved in a slightly bigger game then finally arriving in Henderson. I think one of the Carter parents could have come back to town after spending years in jail for the murder of the the other parent. Of course, then you could reveal that Kristin had actually murdered this parent too due to years of abuse which could have set off Warren´s murder. 

19 hours ago, Khan said:

That is a neat twist, @dc11786.  But, you know, people loved Jo/Mary Stuart so much.  TPTB would have forced you to change that scenario somehow, so that Jo would be exonerated entirely, simply because there would be a tremendous outcry from viewers who would not want to see that knowledge dangling over Jo's head like the Sword of Damocles. 

It is kind of like what ATWT's Don Hastings said about the possibility of his character, Dr. Bob Hughes, killing someone: viewers might simply shrug and say, "Oh, well, so the gun went off."  Similarly, people would not want to see Jo guilty even of accidental murder, nor would they want Jo to punish herself for the crime even after the court had found her innocent.  If anything, people would be writing in, telling Jo to stop feeling guilty about trying to do away with scum like Warren Carter and enjoy the rest of her life, lol!

I think Jo needs to suffer lol It´s not like Jo was trolling the docks for young guys and bringing them back to a seedy motel to have her way with them and murder them (things we were saved from because Ron Carvilati wasn´t born decades earlier). Mary Stuart would have played the hell out of the angst, but if TPTB wanted to keep Jo purer than Ivory soap, I would tell them that I would eventually reveal that Kate the madam (Martin´s old lover who was a madam played by Mary Stuart when the Corringtons were writing) was in fact the killer and that it would come out somewhere over the next 2 to 3 years lol 

19 hours ago, Khan said:

Obviously, I cannot speak for the rest of the audience, but I feel like the only husbands of Jo's who could have been considered as endgames were Arthur Tate and Tony Vincente, with Tony being the most endgame, if that makes sense.  To me, Martin could not possibly have been endgame, given his background as a gambler and womanizer.  I know he had reformed somewhat by the time he and Jo had married, but I still believe they were too entirely different for theirs to have been a long-lasting union.

I don´t have a horse in the game in regards to Martin/Jo. I was just surprised to see how long they were committed to the pairing even after they were divorced. From a storytelling standpoint, I think Martin and Jo make sense because it kept Jo tied to a large part of the canvas (the Tourneur/Sentell clan), but I could see why some people would not like them because Martin wasn´t perfect. 

19 hours ago, Khan said:

 My idea would have been to cast Forrest Compton, fresh from the cancelled EON, as Jo's new love interest, Stan Potter (an P&G in-joke).  It would be established that Stan and Jo's first husband, Keith Barron, had been business associates; and that Stan and his recently deceased wife, Emily, also had been close friends with Keith and with Jo.  Business opportunities had forced the Potters and their two sons, Robert and Eric, to relocate to Cincinnati (another P&G in-joke), but now that he was retired and a widower, he was moving back to Henderson.

As Jo and Stan resume their friendship, we would see flashbacks of the Barrons and Potters in their younger days, along with the gradual realization that Stan has long carried a torch for Jo.  As Stan later admits, he always wanted to express to Jo his true feelings, but never could, out of respect for both their marriages.  At the same time, Jo, who believes she is truly finished with romance after the implosion of her last marriage, realizes that her feelings toward Stan are turning into something deeper than friendship.

Eventually, Stan would propose to Jo near some place where they and their spouses used to frequent.  Jo accepts Stan's marriage proposal; Patti returns to Henderson for her mother's wedding.  (Ideally, I would have loved to get Lynn Loring to return for a limited engagement). We also would meet Rob and Eric Potter for the first time. 

Trouble looms on the horizon, however, when an older man whom Sunny has been following as part of her series on Henderson's burgeoning homeless community turns out to be none other Keith Barron himself.  (Yes, he would have been the second of Jo's lovers who turns out to be alive after all, with Sam being the first.  Fret not, however, as Jo and Stu would acknowledge that fact, along with the ridiculousness of having not one but two paramours return from the dead, lol).

Your ideas are interesting @Khan and made me think of how I would tweak your scenario. I would probably want to deal with the plight of the homeless by tapping into the fact that many of those who are on the streets suffer from mental illness. In that case, I´d probably reveal that Emily Potter had been quietly disgarded by Stan years ago and that she had been shuffled between social services before getting lost in the system and ending up on the streets. I´d also have one of the sons suffer the same illness so that the audience could see how when treated with respect and dignity, those suffering from mental illnesses can live fulfilling lives.  

19 hours ago, Khan said:

Or...I would go for broke and have Patti's mystery lover turn out to be female. 

Only if you really go for broke and crossover with ¨Another World" and reveal that Patti´s lover is Ada Hobson. 

On 12/23/2023 at 11:59 AM, Khan said:

Does anyone know roughly the dates when Joseph Hardy produced LOL?

I think it was about 1960 to until late 1964, but I am basing that on an article I read years ago from 1963 (or so) when they were discussing how Barbara was considering aborting Rick´s baby (Hank). I believe he produced up until he was working on ¨A Flame in the Wind.¨

On 12/23/2023 at 1:19 PM, FrenchFan said:

Thanks ! I can totally see what you mean. Going through the scripts, it's really how it worked. A main storyline for months, then another. Alan Sterling barely appeared for months during the Wannberg arc for example. 

This is how some radio soaps worked. There would be a small set of mainstays who would mostly react to the insane actions of short run leads who would come and go once their story reached their natural conclusion. These shows were effective. 

Alan is interesting. I can´t remember if he ever learned that Bruce Sterling wasn´t his biological father. If not, I imagine Marcus would have pulled the scab off that wound at some point because she was supposedly set to bring back both Alan and Barbara in 1980. Alan´s paternity revelation would have probably coincided with the reveal that Amy wasn´t Bruce´s child, which was also set to occur at some point later in the year. 

On 12/23/2023 at 4:50 PM, Paul Raven said:

And Van was given various surrogate children along the way. Elizabeth after her father was arrested, later Stacy Corby and then Lynn Henderson. However Van's mothering skills may have been questionable as none of these women ever bothered with a return visit once they left Rosehill.

I´m blanking, who was Elizabeth? 

12 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

I agree. Rick really wasn't permanently connected to any other characters, except his son Hank. So he was sort of a lone-wolf cad who could float from one family or group of characters to another.  So I suppose that made him rather versatile in terms of serving the storyline(s).  And luckily, no writing-team ever wrote him into a corner by having him murder someone or commit some terrible crime which would send him to prison.  And of course, many soap opera cads are eventually murdered themselves, which luckily never happened to Rick.  Again, I see Rick as similar to John Dixon on ATWT, who had an even longer run -- but was also a long-term cad with few real permanent connections to other characters.  Rick and John sort of fulfilled the same role, in a way.  Very few soaps had a long-running character like Rick or John.  The only other example I can think of is Roger Thorpe on Guiding Light, who served a similar function to Rick and John..  But I'll admit Roger was more over-the-top in his behaviors, and he was absent from GL for long periods several times over his run.  I don't believed either Rick or John ever left their respective shows during their long runs, until Larry Bryggman was written off in the mid-2000s.   

I think Barbara and Rick´s volatile marriage was similar to Alan and Susan´s on ¨Secret Storm.¨ She was the spoiled daddy´s girl and he was someone who didn´t always color inside the lines of morality. Where Rick seems to luck out is he was already engulfed in story when they decided to write out Barbara with his involvement with Sally Stark´s Kate Swanson. His ties to the Sterling clan as their in-law also allowed Bruce and Vanessa to cluck about Rick´s behavior without it ever really impacting them. 

I find it hard to see Jerry Lacey as this charismatic roguish type given the roles he played on ¨Dark Shadows," but I know that people liked him. Did Rick have any romances between Kate and then the triangle with Cal and Meg? 

8 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

Had LOL surived past Feb 1980, I wonder how the show would have changed since the actress playing Meg was rumored to have left once her contract was up.

In the few episodes online from the final weeks, there looked to be some promising characters like Liane, Dana Delaney's character, etc so I wonder if the soap would have become more an esemble instead of focused just on Van/Meg.

Tudi Wiggins leaving would have been a loss for ¨Love of Life,¨ but I think the show could have survived. There was a lot of story going on (Ben/Betsy/Eliot, Hal/Arlene/Ray, Steve/Vanessa/Bruce/Amy, Bambi/Tony/Kim, Kelly/Wes/Cheryl) that Meg´s departure would have just meant some shifting. There seemed to be some attempt at building a Andrew/Lianne relationship, which I imagine could have become the next complication to Lianne/Tom. 

6 hours ago, Khan said:

Good question, @Soaplovers!  Unfortunately, even if LOL had survived past Feb. 1980, I doubt that it would have lasted that much longer.

The way I see it, LOL was trapped in a no-win situation.  Their core audience seemed to be older and more conservative than other soaps'.  Therefore, they were not as willing to embrace whatever changes were necessary in order to make the show more contemporary and competitive with the Bell or ABCD soaps, especially if those changes meant de-emphasizing Vanessa as the show's central heroine.  At the same time, because of its' reputation as being "your mother's soap opera," it seems as if younger audiences for the most part steered clear of LOL, possibly out of the belief that the show had nothing to interest them.

Creatively, ¨Love of Life¨ doesn´t feel like a corpse in 1979/1980 plot summaries the way it does to me in 1978/1979. Ann Marcus really reenergized the show in terms of story, but the damage had been done. When the show changed slots in April, 1979, the show lost about 40 affiliates which meant about a clearance drop of 15%. It would be interesting to see what would have happened if ¨Love of Life¨ had managed to be in the 90s for clearance when Marcus was writing because even when the show was ending she was getting ratings at a 4.0, which isn´t great but went you see it has a clearance of 70% its not terrible, but it really would have needed to pulling a 7.0 to be competitive with the bottom portion and it just wouldn´t have been close even with a fuller market clearance. 

Regarding Van, she had been deemphasized pretty much since Labine and Mayer were writing. I think she was central in the Jeff Hartman story, but after that, Van and Bruce are left to deal with other people´s problems. They get an alcoholic ward, Lynn Henderson, but her story never really seems to find a direction ( I think they wanted to have Lynn go after Ben Harper but that never completely happens). Gabrielle Upton has a plot where Bruce thinks he´s dying and tries to pair Van and Andrew Marriott, but that sounds even more hoary than most of Jean Holloway´s stuff. It is Ann Marcus, actually, who seems to revitalize Bruce and Van by introducing Amy Russell, who claims she is Bruce´s bastard daughter, and Ben´s ex-cell mate Steve Harbach who develops a sexual attraction for Vanessa. Truthfully, it would be a treat to see some of the Steve / Vanessa material. 

6 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

The timeslot change was what killed the show because it moved to a timeslot usually reserved for more youth oriented soaps (i.e Dark Shadows, Edge of Night, etc).

I think had the show stayed in the timeslot it was originally in, it probably would have lasted a few more years at least.

The funniest thing I can recall was that my mom used to watch LOL and actually viewed Loving as almost a replacement for Love of Life in terms of atmosphere.

My thinking is that had the show lasted beyond 1980 till at least 1982/83, I do think that Van/Bruce would probably have been the tentpole characters in terms of giving advice to the other characters.  And that  most of the other characters would have been more youthful with an emphasis on the college and the restaurant/club continuing.

The timeslot change is about a month before Ann Marcus arrives. In Marcus' first week, she immediately dumps the notorious Bambi Brewster plot and immediately gives Bruce and Van jobs at the university. By June, Mia Marriott´s brother Wes Osbourne becomes involved with Ray Slater´s kid sister Gina Gaspero for the youth summer story. Marcus´ overhaul definitely has a youth emphasis.

The college definitely seems to be becoming more of an emphasis as does the disco that is run by Arlene and Ray. I think ditching the ski resort element of the show was unfortunate, but it didn´t seem to fit with where the show was heading. 

Given the constant turnover, the question really would be who would have been producer or writer after Abbi/Marcus and what would they have done to the show. 

23 hours ago, Khan said:

I can envision Jo shooting Warren (or any villain) and then blocking it out psychologically, but I am afraid that Jo was the sort who would have confessed to the authorities the minute she remembered, even if it meant exonerating her nemesis, Stephanie, of the crime.  If anything, Stephanie would have accused Jo of delaying her confession in order to make her (Stephanie) suffer; and Jo would have bought Warren's reformed act enough to take him into her home when everyone else had turned their backs on him - which, of course, would play right into Warren's plans.

The longer Warren lived with Jo, however, and the more she extended kindness and friendship toward him, the more conflicted Warren actually would become over his plot to ruin Jo.  For the first time in his life, Warren Carter would realize that even a low-life such as himself has worth, and that would be due to Jo's influence.  But there would be a complication in the form of Warren's continued association with Brett Hamilton, Ringo Altman or another criminal - and maybe a plot to kill Jo and make it look as if she took her own life out of guilt over shooting Warren - that would result in Stu getting injured at Jo's house and Warren finally breaking down and revealing everything before apologizing to Jo and possibly fleeing Henderson for parts unknown, thereby leaving the door open for him to return down the road, played by a different actor (?), and causing (more) trouble for Cagney and Suzi as he wants to get to know Jonah again.

But...back to Jo's hypothetical murder trial.

As I have mentioned upthread, I would have had Jo on trial for killing someone, with her last husband, Martin Tourneur, being the most likely victim.  Courtney Sherman Simon would have returned as Kathy to defend Jo in court, and Millee Taggart would have returned briefly as Janet to lend her support as well.  Obviously, Jo would have been framed by the real culprit (don't ask me who), but Martin himself would have provided Jo with plenty of reasons to shoot him, as he would have become more physically and mentally abusive toward his wife in the weeks and months leading up to his murder.  Then, at the climax of the special "live" broadcast, everyone's jaws would drop as the jury announces their guilty verdict.

I would have used the trial and Jo's subsequent prison stint to bring back some former soap stars in short-term roles.  For example, I would have had someone like Mandel Kramer (ex-Bill Marceau, EON) play the judge presiding over the trial.  (Alternatively, I would have dragged former EP Fred(die) Bartholomew out of acting retirement to play the "honorable judge Fauntleroy").  Someone like Audrey Peters (ex-Vanessa, LOL) or Bethel Leslie (ex-Maggie, THE DOCTORS) would play at the warden at the women's prison outside Henderson, where Jo is incarcerated; and her assistant would be played by someone like Teri Keane (ex-Martha, EON, et al) or Mary K. Wells (ex-Louise, EON).  Jada Rowland (ex-Amy, SS; ex-Carolee, TD) might play the head of a prison gang that gives Jo a hard time behind bars, while Rosemary Prinz (ex-Penny, ATWT, et al) plays Jo's wisecracking cell-mate, who, once released, could become Stu's new, recurring love interest.  (Most of the ladies mentioned are just examples, but I do think RP and Larry Haines would have shared great chemistry if they had been paired together.)

During her unfortunate incarceration, however, Jo would stumble upon a prostitution ring involving several of the younger inmates.  All clues would point to the warden, but Jo, with help on the outside from Stu, would learn that the warden's assistant would be the true ringleader, leading to a climactic showdown between many of the women that results in the warden being injured, the assistant being apprehended and Jo having her sentence commuted by the governor in light of her efforts to expose the ring.

In the meantime, Sunny would be using her journalistic skills to clear Jo's name, drawing the reluctant male A.D.A., who had prosecuted Jo, into her efforts to uncover the identity of Martin's real killer.  Of course, Sunny's efforts would place herself in danger; and rescuing her from the killer (whoever they are) with Hogan's help would prompt the A.D.A. to confess his feelings for Sunny, initiating a triangle between him, Hogan and Sunny.

Finally, when Jo is released from prison, so, too, is another inmate whom Jo has taken under her wing.  Jo moves her into her home and in time helps her to track down the little boy whom she gave birth to while still incarcerated and was forced to give up for adoption.

God knows I can be long winded, so I kept a couple a details out regarding my belief regarding the potential of Stephanie going on trial with Jo psychologically blocking it out. Stephanie's rationale for not stating the truth would have been a) no one would believe Stephanie implicating her enemy Jo as anything more than an attempt to distort the truth and b) Stephanie feared that if the investigation did veer away from Stephanie it would lead to Wendy. While Wendy might not go to jail, Stephanie wouldn't want all of Wendy's association with Warren out in the public. Plus, Stephanie knew that she was guilty. Whether or not the audience would have bought that, I cannot say for sure 

I was planning the timing of Jo's memory returning for the same time as Warren's return. Now, you got me thinking though, what if Jo went on trial for murder of Warren and was found innocent, only for Warren to turn up alive, then later have Warren reveal that Jo had in fact been the one who had shot him and she hadn't remembered. And her having to live with the fact that she got off for a crime she did commit. 

As initially conceived, Warren wasn't a complete scumbag. Ellis and Hunt delved a bit into his background and had Brian hunt down information about Warren's past in Detroit. It appeared that Warren was involved in his criminal activities because he and Kristin were impoverished and he was looking to provide a better life for Kristin. I believe this was also some of the subtext to Warren's disgust about Kristin and Brian's relationship because even though Warren was happy Brian was out of the way in terms of Suzi, he didn't like that Kristin would be involved in someone who couldn't provide for Kristin in the way he had. This could easily have been tapped into in the scenario you provided @Khan especially if he were in Jo's house and took troubled Christopher Whiting under his wing. 

I know Martin and Jo weren't endgame for most of the audience, but they were definitely written that way up until Martinw as written out in 1984. Even afterwards, Martin was seen as the one Jo would end up with (if that was ever even a thought on the table). Having her accused of his murder would be pretty brutal. 

The prison story sounds intriguing. The only detail I would suggest is making the district attorney who prosecuted Jo and was Sunny's love interest a little more devious and cunning. He would secretly be making calls to someone who has been guiding his career. Eventually, it would be revealed that the person at the other end of the phone is his aunt, Andrea Whiting, who would pop up for an arc when the truth about Christopher's paternity was revealed. If you are reintroducing Patti, playing out the reveal that Christopher is in fact Len's son as well as the juicy detail that Jo had known for YEARS and hadn't told Patti would be icing with Andrea back on the scene. And if they couldn't convince Joan Copeland to return, I would be okay with Tudi Wiggins assuming the role.  

22 hours ago, Khan said:

I believe that the best way to have accomplished that would have been to bring on either Chris or Tracey first, as a wayward teen, whom Len and Patti would send to their grandmother, Jo, when they could handle them no longer.  Of course, Chris/Tracey would cause trouble almost from the moment they hit Henderson, eventually causing Jo to adopt a "tough love" stance on her own grandchild that, in time, would straighten them out.  Then, down the road, you could bring on Patti, Len and the other child for a special occasion - like, say, a high school graduation - that would trigger a bombshell revelation: Chris/Tracey once caught Patti having an affair.

I think the potential was there for Christopher Whiting given the backstory being adopted by his biological father and only a handful of people knowing (including Jo, and I believe Bob Rogers). In 1983, a Christopher / Danny friendship might have been workable and had them involved in the triangle with Angela.  I think the idea of Patti having had an affair works well especially if it leads Christopher seeing the disintegration of his adopted family as an impetus to look into his biological family which is what brings him to Henderson and with Grandma Jo wringing her hands about the heartbreak that is about to strike her family when all the truth comes out. 

For the mystery lover, I would probably make the man a doctor who would come to work at the hospital to help reestablish that part of the canvas especially if Patti were to make some sort of permanent presence. 

21 hours ago, Khan said:

You know what would have been good?  Wendy tells Warren she is pregnant with his baby, hoping the news will force Warren to divorce Suzi and marry her.  Warren, however, refuses to leave Suzi on account of that inheritance she is expected to come into very soon and tells Wendy to get an abortion.  Frustrated, Wendy tells Suzi about the baby.  Suzi is devastated, not just because of the knowledge that Warren has been unfaithful to her, but also because she has learned that she is unable to conceive herself. 

Then, events take an unexpected twist: just as Wendy is going to tell Warren about Suzi's infertility, Warren is killed in a freak accident, leaving both Suzi and Wendy alone, and Wendy still pregnant with his child.  In an homage to the classic Bette Davis/Mary Astor movie, "The Great Lie," Suzi helps Wendy through a very difficult pregnancy.  Wendy's joy at giving birth to her and Warren's baby gradually turns to panic, though, as she realizes she is not cut out to be a mother.  Eventually, Wendy gives up her baby to Suzi and leaves Henderson for parts unknown.  Wendy's decision sets the stage for a custody battle between Suzi and Stephanie, who is outraged that her own daughter (Wendy) has abandoned her grandchild to another woman.

Here is another way it could go: let's say Warren does not die, but learns that Suzi is infertile.  Warren has a choice to make: either he stays with Suzi and her money, or gives up the money to be with Wendy and their baby.  Warren being Warren, he decides to stay with Suzi.  A devastated Wendy leaves Henderson.  Warren begins plotting to drive Suzi crazy, so he can declare power of attorney over her estate.

Several months later, Wendy returns with her newborn in tow.  Warren and Wendy resume their affair.  Gradually, Warren's plot against Suzi unravels, and Suzi realizes her husband has been gaslighting her.  Suzi turns the tables on Warren, making him believe she is out to get him.  It culminates with Suzi pulling a gun on Warren and shooting him, but - surprise! - the gun is filled with blanks. 

Suzi reveals everything she knows about Warren's plans and offers him and Wendy a choice: the two could stay in Henderson and face criminal charges, or they can take the money that Suzi offers them and leave town, but leave their baby with her.  Warren and Wendy choose the latter; they leave Henderson, and leave behind their baby for Suzi to raise.  And Suzi's ordeal with Warren and Wendy becomes a real catalyst for her, as she resolves never to be anyone's victim again.

I think the idea of Wendy and Suzi raising the child is intriguing. If that was the route, I would want Wendy to not reveal to Suzi who the father was and for Warren to be presumed dead as the crime commission has caught up to him. Meanwhile, Suzi, who was also pregnant by Warren but unaware, loses her baby and the loss causes Wendy to remain mum about the father of her child, but also guides her to let Suzi be a part of her child's life. When pressed by Suzi, Wendy would finally break and confess that her old flame, Spence Langley, was the father thinking Suzi would back off. A newly single Suzi and a newly single Brian (Kristin wouldn't be able to forgive Brian for the role that the crime commission played in Warren's "death") would grow closer. Suzi would eventually decide that she needed to talk to Spence and tracks him down to Chicago, who doesn't let on to that he's not the father. Instead, he follows Wendy's advice and comes to Henderson looking for Stephanie to make a payout. Stephanie is not pleased by any of it, but when Stephanie refuses to pay, which infuriates Wendy, Spence decides to spend time in Henderson where he gets chummy with Kristin. As Kristin and Spence got closer, her one bone of contention with Spence is that he has abandoned "his child." Spence, in turn, decides to play daddy to the child. Eventually, Warren would return and fight  both Brian and Spence, which would require the former friends to repair the damage done by Spence masquerading as Brian, only for Brian and Spence's animosity to resume because of how Spence will inevitably hurt Kristin when it is revealed Warren, not Spence, is the child's father. 

I do like how your proposal though gives Suzi a backbone. She was often very spineless, which left her as a passive character rather than active. 

On 12/8/2023 at 3:14 AM, skylark said:

I haven’t watched much 1984, but it’s kind of surprising to hear Warren was so conniving after he was so against continuing his life of crime under Rusty in ’82-’83. I’ll have to check it out. Him and Martin enemies? I gotta see what happened.

Warren basically takes over the criminal infrastructure that Rusty Sentell had set up. I was watching some episodes from June, 1983, last night and Warren has taken $3 million of Rusty's dirty money in order to fund some of his criminal activity. Tom Bergman is setting up the crime commission and has spoken to Brian Emerson about joining. Brian agrees after confirming that Tom's top target is Warren. 

In reference to when the show dropped the Brian/Suzi angle, Brian's involvement in the crime commission is discussed by Tom and Jo. Jo expresses that her concern is that Brian will have to keep his involvement from his wife and how that would hurt their new marriage. There is no real reference to how this plays into a Brian/Suzi past. In conversations, when Warren is bitching about his wife Suzi, Brian usually defends Suzi, but that seems to be about hating Warren as much as it is about Brian's feelings for Suzi. 

On 12/19/2023 at 1:03 AM, Khan said:

On the one hand, I appreciate Joanna Lee's attempt to steer SFT away from the kind of action/adventure-based stories that was occurring at the time on other soaps.  Since SFT still was a half-hour show, with a budget that probably wasn't very huge in light of their ratings, they really didn't have the proper resources to tell those stories effectively.  But, on the other hand, in addition to the usual network/sponsor interference and time slot/affiliate clearance issues, she didn't have that kind of "Wow!" storyline that could have infused new life and interest into the show, the way the David Hamilton storyline helped GH avoid cancellation back in '77.  In order for her vision for the show to have succeeded, she and Gary Tomlin really needed a true potboiler storyline that could have had everyone talking.

The clearance issues you mentioned were really a problem. The show had a 91% clearance when it premiered on NBC. It was up to a 93% by the summer of 1982. By the time Lee arrives, it is closer to 85% and then within weeks of taking over the show is at 80%. 

I think the Wendy / Warren / Suzi triangle was pretty successful at getting the show attention. The decision to nix Wendy's marriage to nice guy Keith so that Wendy could be more of a trouble maker like her mother going after her best friend's husband, Warren. Meanwhile, Warren's criminal involvement is being investigated by Brian, Wendy's half-brother, while he becomes involved with Billy Vargas, who ends up kidnapping Jo. Wendy and Warren continue to carry on behind Suzi's back while she is studying to become a social worker. Wendy gets pregnant and Warren is excited to be a father only for Warren to discover that Suzi is about to come of age into a sizeable inheritance. Warren's plans to dump Suzi are dropped so he can cash in on the future windfall and pushes Wendy to abort the baby. Wendy contemplates it, but ends up miscarrying leaving her devastated. Once Suzi learns the truth, she decides to dump Warren, who quickly marries Wendy and plans to get custody of baby Jonah before Warren ends up in jail himself. This all plays out in about a single year (May, 1983-June, 1984). If anything, the story could have been slowed down. 

The trouble was that Cynthia Gibb departs in August, 1983, and Elizabeth Swankhammer, who was very green, took over in September before departing several months later in December. In January, you have Teri Eoff assuming the role.

I think they could have pulled a Who Shot Warren story in the early half of 1984 though if you were looking for a big dramatic trial.  But I would have had Jo pull the trigger and Stephanie stand trial as Jo wouldn't remember due to trauma stemming from her kidnapping by Vargas. Of course, Warren would pop back up and Jo would be left wondering (after regaining the memory with the help of her new psychiatrist love inter) if Warren remembers what she has done. Warren would claim he was a new man, but would slowly gaslight Jo into confessing during a big party. 

On 12/19/2023 at 1:19 AM, Paul Raven said:

Agree. That live episode 'lost tape' schtick got lots of publicity but it was undermined by the feeling it was ahoax.

What they should have done instead was a 'live week' and use that in conjunction with some returns eg Patti, Gary  or gimmicks like the ghost of Eunice appearing to Jo and Suzi and maybe a bombshell story eg Jo's son is alive.

Something attention grabbing for each day of the week and lots of publicity.

But the live episode did get the ratings up. Weren't they like a 4.0 a week or so after the event? So people were tuning in. Gimmicks only grab the audiences attention if there is enough story to maintain outside it. I think the stunts worked (Michellle Phillips as Ruby Ashford, the LIVE episode), but that ultimately it was an affiliate issue and a pacing issue (they could have slowed the show down) more so than the stories themselves. 

On 12/19/2023 at 1:37 AM, Paul Raven said:

 Have Patti return to escape from an abusive relationship. 

Jo is shocked that her daughter has been through this. The guy turns up and starts to get rough with Patti , resulting in Jo picking up the gun that Patti had brought for protection and blasting that bastard to bits. The Friday finale is a freeze frame of Mary Stuart withe pistol smoking

I think they could have worked Patti back in around September, 1983, when Jo "died" during the kidnapping story and had her involved in the handling of her mother's estate. I probably would have kept her married to Len (on the rocks), but I would have her eyeing up men in Henderson (even though her age range was very limited). I would have had her clash with Martin, who Patti would see as beneath her mother given he was a gambler and a womanizer, which would put her in good graces with Lloyd. Truthfully, I think there would need to be more work done to the canvas to make Patti viable despite the fact that being Jo's daughter should have been enough.

@FrenchFan Thanks for sharing this with us.

Regarding this time period, you have a few things going on. Joe Hardy and Don Ettlinger, who have been working together on the show for a good portion of the early 1960s have departed to launch "A Flame in the Wind" and is about to relaunch as "A Time for Us" at the end of the month pretty much continuing much of the original show's story, but dumping its older female lead (Kathleen Maguire's Kate Austen) and building up the conflict between the Skerba/Driscoll sisters. 

Also, you have NBC sniffing around looking to purchase "Love of Life."

Finally, I put a document in the "Secret Storm" thread a few years back from Roy Winsor where he talked about wanting his shows to be open to having characters who could move in and out of the story. He stated one of the reasons was that actors contractual demands were a problem. At that time, Judy Lewis had something like a 1.5 episode week guarantee or maybe 2 at her own request. I remember thinking that it would be hard to keep her front and center with a guarantee that low. Shifting the characters in and out of the story was something Winsor wanted becasue he felt it would build longevity and that they wouldn't be limited to telling stories with a smaller group of people. 

"Love of Life" always seemed to be a show that was able to evolve based on its heroine Vanessa's journey. The show shifted from Barrowsville to New York City to Rosehill while the other characters came and went. I would be curious to deep dive into which characters went from one locale to the other, while which ones were lost in the shuffle. It seems crazy to me that Ann Loring's Tammy Forrest survived as long as she did given the constant flux of characters, but her status as Vanessa's pal probably left her in position as  B-/C-level heroine. 

On 12/17/2023 at 9:56 PM, Paul Raven said:

Reading through the synopses, i thought the Joanna Lee era presented the best-far from perfect but at least fairly balanced.

When Sherry left, maybe Liza should have also. She had been frontburner for a decade,so maybe some time away would have helped. Gary coming in to keep the Waltons/Bergmans at the center of things. Tom also with a good recast.

And why didn't they just bring in Tracey,Jo's natural grandaughter instead of creating the never before mentioned Sarah? weird!

Bringing Patti back finally but writing her as a different character.Where were her children?

So many changes and stories that seemed to lack purpose.

Lee definitely presented the strongest period. Jo's kidnapping is always cited as the reason the show thrived, but Lee really helped cultivate a strong canvas that was intergenerational and blended the past and the present. The decision to make Wendy Wilkins a schemer was brilliant. Wendy going after Warren Carter built that part of the canvas up beautifully. The decision to make the show an ensemble again and not the Travis and Liza show allowed the canvas to open up. Lloyd Kendall as the new rival to Travis Sentell and Tourneur Instruments was intriguing giben the history between Lloyd and Martin regarding Steve's paternity. The criminal element led by Warren, Ringo, and Vargas was balanced well with the Brian Emerson and Tom Bergman's crime commission with Sunny in the wings. Stephanie and Steve was fun, and the eventual Stephanie and Lloyd should have been fun. Barbara Moreno was a great addition not only giving Stu a love interest, but building up the social work element that would have eventually included Suzi. There was a sense of future building in Henderson that didn't occur very often afterwards. 

Liza leaving might have allowed Sunny to flourish. If they had done the Lloyd/Hogan stuff with Sunny, it might have been a little more effective, but maybe it wouldn't have been. Liza's departure would have meant that Danny Walton was Stu's main family tie. Gary showing up earlier might have helped, but in July, 1985, I'm not sure what I would have done with him. If they had revived the Riverfront Clinic where Angela Bassett's Selina McCulla worked they could have tried that romance. 

Sarah Whiting being adopted was a layer added by Tomlin I believe. Danny would have been older than Tracey, and Sarah is with Wendy and Quinn, who are clearly suppose to be older. Of course, Danny was still the same age he was in 1983, but that's another story. To be fair, Tracey isn't even mentioned by many of the soap books from the time, but, neither is Sarah in the end either. I like Sarah, but it would have made more sense to bring on Chris Whiting and have him fight Quinn for Wendy. 

12 hours ago, Khan said:

I think Douglas Marland would have used the flood as an opportunity to introduce a new family - most likely, a blue-collar family, who would have been particularly devastated by the flood - while keeping Jo, Stu, Patti, Liza, Sunny, etc. front-and-center.

I know people think Marland couldn't write a half-hour soap, but I'd like to chalk up his stints on THE DOCTORS and LOVING to external forces, lol.

I think Marland's "Loving" works in the final months (December, 1984-May, 1985). His "A New Day in Eden" is very slow given the structure of 2 half-hour episodes a week. Truthfully, even if it aired daily, it is a bit slow. I think his larger canvases played better on hour long shows, but I think paired with the right EP (maybe Joanna Lee or another female daytime outsider) could have worked for "Search," but probably wouldn't be my first pick. 

8 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

The show already had an expiration date by the time Pam/Addie joined as the headwriters.  It was nice that the show was able to go out with a great final episode that tied up the show nicely.

Based on the article, it does sound like Pam had great ideas.. just needed someone strong to implement them.. and I do think your idea of pairing Marland and Pam would have been a winner.  His shows were tightly plotted, but the day to day stuff was kind of cold and lacking warmth.. while her shows were warm/earnest and watchable.. but her plots were a little out of whack at times.

I think the last time the show had a chance was fall of 1985 with Erwin Nicholson as EP and Gary Tomlin as writer. The return of Estelle opened up story possibilities in a way that could have generated some real long term story including the return of Martin Tourneur. Repairing Hogan and Sunny in the chemical plant poisoning story had the potential to repair some of the harm to Sunny (which I don't think was as bad as what Long and Walsh did to Liza). A Chase / Adair / Ryder / T.R. triangle seemed to have potential especially if most of the quad ended up tied to the newspaper. Keeping the Sarah / Quinn / Wendy triangle going with Stephanie's daughter as the spunky heroine and Jo's granddaughter as the more emotionally manipulative antagonist would have been a good way to keep things heading in the right direction.

I'm curious what was on deck had Tomlin stayed as I know that Gary Walton was suppose to come back and romance Sunny, which was why the nephew had been introduced (Gary and Laine's son). I don't know how Bela Garody survived a highly despised intro story, a serial killer, a flood, three producers, and 3 head writing teams while having such little story potential. 

I feel there is just a very big disconnect when I watch Long/Walsh's "Search for Tomorrow." It seems most visible to me when I watch the anniversary episode back to back with the next day's episode. The anniversary episode is nice, but also mostly relies on the actors chemistry than a strong script (in my opinion). It's not a bad script, it just isn't memorable from the lines standpoint, but rather from the use of flashbacks. The next day's episode with Liza and Patti fighting over Hogan with Hogan dangling the hospital records while Quinn fights with Jerry Henderson and Suzi fights off the advances of the guy from Liberty House just isn't it. I've tried to watch the Ireland stuff, which is very romantic and plays well into fantasy, but just lacks dramatic tension, in my opinion. To be fair, I feel this way about Long's work on "Texas" as well and much of Walsh's work on "Loving."  

3 hours ago, Khan said:

I agree.  SFT's final EP, David Lawrence, might have had a prior working relationship with P&G, as well as a minor track record of producing outside of daytime, but nothing in his resume suggests to me that he was a visionary. 

It's kind of like when CBS hired Cathy Abbi to produce the last several months of LOL.  The only other notable job she'd held was as an associate producer at Y&R; and I think I've read somewhere, too, that the higher-ups knew she wasn't cut out for the EP gig, but hired her, because they needed someone to run LOL into the ground and give them an excuse to cancel it.

(Lawrence also reminds me of that string of no-name EP's at LOVING who were there when it was clear that no one who was any good wanted anything to do with that show.)

And I don't know whether I was the one who had suggested a Pamela K. Long/Douglas Marland team-up, @Soaplovers, but I'll gladly take credit for it, lol!

Jozie Emmerich and Haidee Granger of "Loving" were former ABC daytime executives. Going from artists to business folk represented the shift from developing a creatively strong show and creating a show which was strong at staying within budget. I imagine some of that might have been similar with SFT's final teams. Also, I think SFT was a dry run for P&G before they put people at other shows (typically, AW). 

Abbi was at "Love of Life" for about 17 months before the show was cancelled. I know @saynotoursoap mentioned Abbi being brought on to run the show into the ground. The Jean Holloway run (November/December, 1978 - May, 1979) nearly did, but Ann Marcus' material was very intriguing. I do think the canvas may have been a bit too big under Marcus/Abbi, which I think occasionally was the problem during the NBC years for SFT. 

I would be curious to see how Marland would have handled a town that had recently been destroyed in a flood. I feel like that's not something he would easily dismiss and it might have naturally built in that civic piece (when Jo was on town council, Brian and Tom were trying to clena up crime, and Suzi was pursuing a social work degree) that had been lost in the shuffle. 

20 minutes ago, Franko said:

Not to go too far in another direction, but I wonder how much of that had to do with how Lila was being written-played in that era. Very Mary the Good Fairy.

Makes you wonder what the kids thought of Kate Rescott or Isabelle Alden.

Isabelle Alden was in and out for much of the 1990s (offscreen for a good chunk of 1991 and 1994) and played by three separate actors. She might not have inspired viewer loyalty. Kate may have given her tough love approach with Ally. I could see how early to mid 1990s Lila Quartermaine would enjoy the sage advice she would dispense and acting as a calming port in the storm that was the Q clan. 

18 minutes ago, Khan said:

I think I see where you're coming from, @dc11786.  Although a "found family" has its unique advantages, having a "traditional" family with multiple generations lends itself very well to conflicts, too.  Like you've said, it all comes down to how families are explored, and TC apparently didn't explore its' "family" very well.

You are right. That really was the bigger issue. Not necessarily the family structure concepts, but the failure to dig deep into anything. Connected to that, the show moved too quickly at times to really appreciate anything because the story really drove everything and there seemed to be fewer meaningful character moments that were connected to the plot.

Also, tonally, there was something quite off. While I really enjoy the fake Quartermaines sequence, there real meat is the pain Tracey must be feeling about not having that connection to her family, and, from what I've seen, that wasn't explored enough. Everything, everywhere seems to be about a snarky response or an attempt at shock and awe rather than ever just really trying to humanize the characters. 

The dead body was eventually tied to the mob storyline, but, at what point, I can't remember. It was well into 1996 when it was, and more than likely wasn't the original intention. I want to say it was an informant on the Soleitos. 

I think teen characters would have been hard because there would have had to be some sort of parental figures and since "The City" was desperately trying to avoid traditional family structures, this wasn't going to be the case. The only thing they could do is a private boarding school, but I imagine those aren't a thing in the city (but I'm sure if there are someone will correct me lol) I think Zoe was suppose to be fairly young. Ally should have been around 21 when the show started, but really the story and aging of Tyler probably put her later into her 20s. I think Frankie, who was only on very briefly, should have been under 20. 

I know I'm in the minority, but I don't think the found family unit was executed well or had the long term potential as the sole form of famialiar structure. I think the contrast of the tradition and the found family would have been neat, but the show rarely got as deep as it should with its core characters, expecting the depth of supporting family members would have been a big ask. There were hints of the potential of the conflict of traditional vs. found with the Roberts family secrets, the revelation of Azure's identity, and even the Zoe/Richard paternity drama filled romance. At the end of the day though, it just never materialized into anything compelling.

2 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I'm glad that Walsh was able to fix what Granger did with the Cooper story as much as she could in 1994.

I agree. I like Walsh's 1994-1995 run better then her 1992-1993. A lot of 1992-1993 even before Haidee Granger arrives on the scene is very dry and lifeless. I suspect the bigger issue was that the big story, the introduction of the college set, didn't happen until several months into Walsh's run on the show and the other big story, Clay isn't an Alden, wasn't well received. I think the Clay story was actually a recycled plot from "Riveria," the French produced soap filmed in English that Walsh wrote the year before she came to "Loving" the first time. There was a love story between Bradley Cole's American character and the daughter of the wealthy perfume producing family. It turned out they were half-siblings until it was revealed quite towards the end that the daughter was the product of an affair as well. Maybe Walsh wanted to try Shana and Clay? I don't think that would have worked with Larkin Malloy and it would have been a waste of Dennis Parlato's time. 

I think it was pretty hard to mess up the younger set once Amelia Heinle arrives as Steffi. Only the work of James Harmon Brown & Barbara Essensten seems to lose some of what made Cooper/Steffi/Casey/Ally special even when the actors were able to keep their characters mostly cohesive despite the roulette wheel of producers and writers that the show went through in the final three years. I will say Walsh and Laurie McCarthy write some of the most dramatically compelling scenes that the younger set has during their entire run with Casey's mental health issues leading to self medicating with cocaine, Steffi's parallel journey of self-destruction after Clay has convinced her that Cooper and Deborah bedded down together, and Ally and Cooper having to make hard decisions when Tyler accidentally comes into contact with the drugs that Casey had in his camera bag. 

I believe an additional issue for Pamela was that the Dobsons had to fight to get her on the air. In an SOD article, the Dobsons talked about how they had wanted to introduce Pamela much earlier in the story, but the powers that be didn't want another older character on the canvas. I imagine its why you get a drive by of Grant Capwell in 1986 rather than a truly epic showdown that should have drawn Pamela back into the mix. 

Robin Strasser stated at some point in the 1980s that the Dobsons wanted her for a role on "Santa Barbara." I believe the general presumption has been that this role was Pamela Capwell. 

At one point, Walsh quit prior to her ousting. Shortly after he came on (summer 1992), Paul Anthony Stewart stated the show had no headwriter and that Granger was acting as defacto headwriter. 1992 is a mess so I wouldn't be surprised.  Addie Walsh and Haidee Granger clashed; it sounds like Granger clashed with a lot of people.

Anyway, I suspect Walsh was upset because Granger changed her story plans for Cooper Alden, which involved him being sexually assaulted by his nanny. In Granger's sanitized version, it was described as a seduction by a twelve or thirteen year old Cooper of Selina Walker, the nanny. When Walsh returns in 1994, she has a rather big confrontation between Stephanie and Cooper over Stephanie's precarious health (her eating disorder was ramping up again). As Cooper discussed his own feelings, Steffi directly asks Cooper if he was molested, and Cooper confirms it.

It would seem most likely that Walsh's bible was used for the 2nd half of 1992 whether or not she was present or not. 

Was researching "Road of Life" and came across another actress playing Mama Bauer around March, 1949... Martha Wentworth. 

On 11/23/2023 at 12:08 PM, Khan said:

God bless S. Michael Schnessel, because I truly believe he was a wonderful writer for OLTL, but by 1990, I think the man was burning out as the show's HW.  No doubt, Paul Rauch kept pressuring him to come up with ever bigger ideas, but the bigger the ideas became, the more they started to weigh down the show.  Andrea Evans' departure really showed the network just how much the show was suffering creatively.

According to his partner, Dominic Procaccino, Schnessel was diagnoses with AIDS in 1988. I imagine that may have also played a role in the end of his run on "One Life to Live."

Here is a link to Procaccino's interview for the Not Another Second Project where he speaks a little about his life with Schnessel. Procaccino passed last year. 

https://www.notanothersecond.com/stories/nick/

12 hours ago, carolineg said:

This is so well thought out and interesting.  I would have love to see this type of story.  I can't say I thought much of Tiffany/Sean leaving when they did.  I guess the interest just wasn't there for Labine.  

I never thought much of Jessica and am not sure she was worth developing and investing in, but I love your ideas.

Thanks. In considering what was said upthread about how it was harder to ground some of the 80s characters into the more modern world, maybe Labine felt similarly about Sean and Tiffany. While I find Tiffany's descent into self-destruction fascinating, I could see where others find it heavy. In reviewing the summaries, there were some lighter moments (they had several girlfriend-type meetings between Holly and Tiffany), but not enough to lessen the tone of the overall plot. I could see it all just being too much and dumping Tiffany and Sean. 

I think Jessica was worth salvaging long enough to let her have the baby, but her long term potential was most likely limited. What I enjoy about the pre-Labine Riche era is the level of connectivity between the cavas. I know some of those characters aren't the most beloved (Julia, Jenny, Paul, Nikki, Eric, Jessica), but they all seem to play a part and fit with the environment the show is developing. I don't think people would have liked Jessica as Jessie's grandniece, but I thought the closeness in names and the same last name as Jessie's former love would be too much to pass up. 

4 hours ago, j swift said:

On screen, it seems like Robert and Anna were together for a much shorter time than Robert and Holly.  Obviously they had a long history.  But, Duke was presented as the love of Anna's life.  And she was shagging aliens and mobsters with ponytails (aka Evan Jerome) for months before Gloria Monty returned, and suddenly she's tieing Robert to a column, and then they moved into that ugly purple version of the Webber house. 

So, for me, there's just not as much rooting value for them as a couple versus as partners and friends.

Hindsight provides different outlooks. In watching 1990, knowing what happens in 1991, Robert and Anna reuniting doesn't seem to be much of a stretch. How quickly that occurred would be, but the Anna & Robert thread seems to be something that was being delayed for some reason. The original set up of the Lucas story with Cheryl's baby being fathered by either Julian or Robert would seem to keep Anna in that orbit. I would say that it's possible Evan Jerome/Edge Jackson was intended to keep Anna and Robert in the same story as Julian Jerome as the baby's father meant Lucas was an heir to the Jerome money.

Also, a rather significant part of the original Cesar storyline in 1990 is the revelation that Sean engineered the break up of Anna and Robert in order to keep Robert's head in the game, which woudl suggest that there would be a potential hurdle removed for Robert and Anna reuniting. Maybe Robert and Anna was never the plan, but there are enough threads that they could have done some easy work and repaired the two. 

Anna goes through a series of guys in 1990: Julian, fauxDuke, Casey, Shep, and Edge. I think that the Hardy/Palumbo 1991 would have had a messy scenario with Edge/Anna/Shep/Cheryl/Robert and the baby drama. 

4 hours ago, titan1978 said:

As a kid watching back then I thought they played that there was some emotion still between them. From the wedding flashbacks to establish their history when she first arrived to how Duke was at times angry and jealous of Robert’s place in their lives. It was part of the story when Grant Putnam kidnapped her. The audience did favor Robert/Holly and Anna/Duke though.

I liked them together and I loved their wedding at Lila Quartermaine’s garden, with all the large hats.

Anna was my favorite character. When she was gone I was almost gone too. But habit and then my teen gay hormones kicking in when Jagger arrived kept me watching. I was at the perfect age for Jagger/Karen/Brenda/Jason/Robin/Stone.

Riche really lucked out while rebuilding things with that teen squad and the Ryan/Felicia story both capturing the audience that was left. I was way more glued to those stories than I had been during Monty’s return year.

I think given the canvas at the time, settling on Robert and Anna wasn't the worst decision in the world. 

Most of March, 1992 is available on YouTube. Riche really creates a world that is accomplishing what Monty set out to do by trying to modernize the show and take it out of the 1980s but by emphasizing the hospital and the family connections rather than having characters who simply stated their ethnicities. I think Riche's decision to continue to play what was in place instead of doing a wholesale reset was smart in the long run. The 1992 stories may not have been the stories she is most known for, but it sets the tone for the next few years with Levinson's run and Labine's run. 

3 hours ago, carolineg said:

I just found Tiffany to be veering on pathetic with the story.  And she was so glamorous in my eyes as a kid.  Obviously looking at it with adult eyes there are steps that lead Tiffany to these places.  It still just feels out of character for her.  And also taints the Tiffany/Sean lovestory quite a bit.

Given the amount of time spent deconstructing Tiffany, there needed to be significant time reconstructing her, and it's a shame that didn't happen. I think two things should have happened: (1) Jessica Holmes should have fallen into a coma, but survived and (2) Tiffany would have accepted that she needed to find herself before she could commit to a relationship with Sean. When Jessica was in a coma, I would have had Tiffany as the suspect still, only to return and be immediately arrested explaining that she had been in a rehab facility for her addiction and mental health issues. 

Upon being cleared, Sean would assume that he and Tiffany would reunite, but Tiffany would be hesitant. When they did reunite, while Jessica still lingered on life support, it was due to Sean's promise that they would be a complete family: Tiffany, Sean, and Jessica and Sean's baby. With Jessica written off for dead, Tiffany falls into the trap of obtaining the dream family that had become her focus for the last year. Only for Jessica to awaken from her coma after receiving a visit from her parents: Teddy Holmes and Carol Murray Holmes (very Ron C. of me, I know). 

Tiffany would build a life on her own allowing Sean and Jessica to raise their child together, while Tiffany built a friendly rivalry with Teddy, who would be in publishing after failing to revive his career as a novelist. In the intervening years, Teddy would have entered journalism and now work as a publisher for the local paper. Teddy, like before, would also be running up debts, but this time he would owe money to the mob. Sonny would use this to have Jessica Holmes not only work for him, but act as his personal spy. When Jessica was leaking information, the PD would assume it was Luke, at first. 

At first, Jessica would ask Teddy to keep Tiffany distracted as she was not only getting closer to Sean again, but also was doing an expose on Sonny and the mob and feared that Tiffany would learn of her work for Sonny. Teddy would agree when he realized that Tiffany was well off as the owner of the television station and saw it as his chance to make an easy buck. When Jessica learned her father's change of plans, she would be furious. Tiffany would see through Teddy as the con man he was, but loved making Jessica squirm so she played along, not letting Teddy in on that she knew his game. 

In the meantime, Tiffany would be getting closer to Tony and Lucas after Bobbie and Tony split. Teddy would drug Tiffany to make it look like she was drinking again to keep Tony and Tiffany apart. Tiffany would claim she wasn't drinking. Jessica would also take advantage saying she wants Tiffany away from her child. Teddy would be her sole ally as he continued to drug Tiffany. When Teddy proposes, a disillusioned Tiffany would accept and after a quickie marriage, the two would be together just as Sean discovered the connection between Jessica and Sonny. Sean would soon realize he was too late, but would wish Tiffany her happiness. Teddy would order a hit on his new bride in order to quickly take over her estate. 

Believing all hope was lost for her and Sean, Jessica would confess that she had encouraged her father to go after Tiffany and had learned (afterwards) that he had drugged Tiffany to discredit her (as well as to kill any credibility if she did learn anything in the expose she was developing on the mob). Sean would punch Teddy and Tiffany would bring her husband to the hospital, unaware that the brakes on her car had been cut by the hitman. Teddy and Tiffany's car would end up crashing leaving Teddy dead, and Tiffany in surgery. 

Jessica would accuse Sonny of setting up the hit on her father because of his debts, but Sonny looks into it and discovers the truth. Jessica tries to protect her father's memory by letting people believe that the death was caused by the gambling debts. Sean and Tiffany become suspicious and investigate themselves, bringing them closer together while Jessica tries to keep them from revealing how much of a monster her father truly was. 

As Jessie's grandniece, I'd probably develop a close connection between her and the Hardys with Audrey playing the role of her conscious allowing Audrey to reflect on her own past and the pain that could cause with Jessica becoming close to the now single Tom Hardy as Simone Hardy and Justus Ward grow closer and both Justus and Jessica decide to vie for the same legal position. And on and on...

49 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I found the Sean/Tiffany stuff quite depressing personally.  Not a bad story, but very exhausting.  Although I think the Lucas custody story could have played out longer and maybe more interestingly with BJ dying and the fallout from that.  I guess even Labine wouldn't keep kicking Bobbie when she was down though-until her own daughter steals her husband lol.   It felt like Sean was still around a bit with the Frank Smith/Sonny mob stuff, but Tiffany hardly ever appeared.  By the time they left I remember thinking they had already departed lol.  

For some reason I could see Robert being involved with the Frank Smith/Puerto Rico action.  I am not exactly sure how so I am not adding anything relevant.   There was still quite a bit of action/adventure on that side of the canvas.  I, mean, to me putting Robert in that orbit is less weird than him being the D.A. of Port Charles like his is today.

I can see how the Tiffany/Sean stuff could be depressing. It was very emotionally heavy without any moments of levity, that I seem to recall. Tiffany becomes very hyperfocused in order to make it clear why Sean would stepped out. It's a shame. The other stories at the time could be equally heavy emotionally (Dominique dying, the Jack Kensington/Jenny hearing, A.J.'s return from rehab and quest to learn the truth about Nikki), but those all seemed to strike a better balance. 

Monty seems to play a rather big part in the course of Lucas' custody. When Palumbo and Hardy are in charge, Lucas is pretty set to be Robert's son. Monty nixes that, goes back to the late Julian Jerome as the daddy, and moves on. It would have been interesting if Tony / Tiffany got close after Tony and Bobbie split. That might have revived Tiffany in a meaningful way. 

35 minutes ago, j swift said:

I was also thinking about Scorpio as being a law enforcement official during the rise of Sonny as a mob boss.  But, then I recalled all of those g-men and cops that were made to look like fools, and I'm glad Robert was spared the humiliation of being outwitted by Sonny.

I do think there is something potentially really compelling about a loyalty triangle between Robert / Luke / Sonny starting off with Robert asking Luke to infilitrate the mob in order to take it down, Luke being drawn back into the danger of it all, Luke becoming friendly with Sonny, Luke feeling torn between the two friends, and the inevitability that Robert forces Luke to choose between him and Sonny with Luke choosing Sonny and Robert now being positioned into trying to takedown not just Sonny, but also Luke. Under Labine, that would have been intersting. Under her successors, I'm less intrigued because we all know where the bias would slide. 

I definitely thought about Guza/Pratt era Robert being outwitted and outplayed by Sonny. I don't think that Rogers would have stayed around long for that. 

And, given this train of thought, I expect that Damian Smith and Anna would have been at least teased, if not been the new endgame. 

24 minutes ago, j swift said:

While I concur that Anna and Robert could've played amazing scenes in the Robin and Stone story. There's also something very Party-of-Five/90210 of playing this very melodramatic tale of two young adults on their own that felt contemporary for the time. 

I had considered this element in a different way. Would they have allowed Robin to contract AIDS if her parents were still in the picture? I imagine so as Labine dispensed with Tony's daughter. I will say, I am sorta glad I wouldn't have to see Robert raging about his daughter's actions the way he would about all the women in his life. I think Hughes would allow Anna to go through all the stages of grief. 

Now completely letting this speculative GH to continue, Robert learning that his daughter had contracted the virus from Sonny's ward just as Luke was being forced to choose between the two would be explosive. I think someone else was saying this, and I didn't realize the implications. Robert would have never approved of Stone to begin with, but this would just seal the deal. 

There is also times I wish there had been more time spent on dealing with Stone's dyslexia before leaping forward with the AIDS storyline. 

8 hours ago, titan1978 said:

I think the nature of Luke and Laura as characters having their original foundations built on more realistic ground by Marland and PFS made them fit in to the tone Riche and Labine were going for pretty seamlessly. At that point, I thought Robert actually needed a rest, and I cannot imagine Tristan in 1993 fitting in with what they were doing. When he came back for the hospital virus storyline I was happy to see him, and I had been sick of him back when he left.

Interesting point about the origins of Luke and Laura in comparison to Felicia and Frisco as well as Robert and Anna. Sean and Tiffany would also fall into this category. I like what Bill Levinson did with the couple in 1993 with Tiffany becoming obsessed with Lucas (which seemed to be not only grounded in her love for her nephew, but guilt she had about her sister's death) and the obsession spiraling into the destruction of her marriage through booze and pills while Sean starting carrying on with Jessica Holmes. I don't know if people generally liked that story, though. It certainly was more grounded than a lot of their other stories, but, as was the case with lots of Levinson's work, there were definitely misogynistic elements. Tiffany and Sean didn't fare too well under Labine. Weren't they mostly backburnered?

8 hours ago, carolineg said:

I think Robert/Anna would have fit quite well into the Stone/Robin stuff, but I am not sure if either of them would have wanted to be the supporting player in the story. 

I agree it's more difficult to place Robert in 1993 with Luke becoming more of a family man and what not.  I do think he could have been tied into the Luke/Sonny/Mob crowd in some way.

Now I am curious to think about how the Sonny/Luke friendship would have played out if Robert was still on the canvas. Luke being pulled back into the mob circle after being on the right side of the law would have been more compelling with Robert in the midst. I enjoyed Tony Geary's Bill when he was playing double agent during the tail end of the Cartel stuff I've seen after Bill has killed Harlan and he's trying to explain to Julia. I think that the morally conflicted stuff Geary could do well when he actually allowed the character to be torn. 

36 minutes ago, Jdee43 said:

I thought Tristian Rogers was always a fan of Gloria Monty's? She brought him on, kept him on, and made him the star of the show when Tony Geary left. Wasn't Rogers going to leave at the end of 1990, and her coming back convinced him to stay one more year? Was that year so bad, that at the end of it, he not only left, but bad mouthed Gloria to ABC and helped get her fired too? I find that hard to believe. 

I thought Rogers was always going to leave at the end of 1991/ beginning of 1992 no matter what, that there was no way to get him to stay.

I stand corrected. I thought Rogers left because of Monty, but looking at some articles you appear to be accurate. In November, 1990, Rogers was interviewed about his work on "General Hospital" and in the film "The Rescuers Down Under" where he stated he assumed he would be phased out as he wasn't looking to stay in daytime forever. He also said he had a couple projects.

A year later, in December, 1991, when it was announced he would be leaving, Monty stated she had asked him to stay another year, and now the year was up. Rogers stated he had projects he was working on that would conflict with a contract. This is probably why Wendy Riche tried to work something out with him on a recurring basis.  

10 hours ago, Franko said:

Yeah, I included Katherine (who left with her ward, King) as a prologue for what was coming. We can't lay that one at Monty's feet, even though, as you point out, she would have been cut anyway.

I also forgot to mention Mary (Mary Jo Catlett), Katherine's housekeeper, who I believe also departed around this time. And I assume that Olin, Anna's housekeeper, was done, too.

I forget about King, the show's last attempt to try and give Katherine something to do all day but wait for Robert to come back to her. They tried giving her Duke's nightclub and letting her rebrand it Delafield's. Then, they tried the friendly business rivalry/flirtation with Colton; the gym and the club were neighbors and Colton was single between Olivia's death and Carla's arrival. Finally, they gave her King. Poor Chris Babers. 

Harrison Davis leaves in early November. Michael Watson also "returns" in December after filming some European horror film. 

Mary outlives Katherine. I think when Mary goes so does her partner-in-crime, Angel. Probably around February-March, 1991. I don't think they are around when the Outback opens. 

I feel like Olin is around until the edge of Wendy Riche. I think she is replaced by Noriko, who may be a relation. Or I might be confusing Olin/Noriko with the Jennings/Reginald situation. 

10 hours ago, Franko said:

It's funny. We talk about Bridget & Jerome Dobson wanting to make it 1987 again when they came back to Santa Barbara, and Monty was doing similar. Although as @Jdee43points out, her time machine was set to 1980. BTW, note that Dawn & Decker on the run ALSO began on the day of a wedding. At least that one actually happened.

The issue was she also didn't want it to be 1980. She wanted this "General Hospital"/ "Eastenders" hybrid. 

10 hours ago, Franko said:

Yeah, once again, I included those as an attempt to put a definitive ending to what was going on. There was overlap, though, like how mourning Robert & Anna was going on at the same time of introducing Karen & Jagger (two characters very much of the early Riche era).

I'll agree that Rogers and Hughes definitely depart because of Monty. I feel like Emma Samms is brought back specifically to fill the space that Anna leaves, except that Scorpio isn't around long enough for that even to become a thing. 

The overlap does occur as a result of the Riche's attempts to get Rogers and Hughes to stay even after they announced their departures. Finally, once Norma Monty is out the door, it is announced at the end of March, 1992, that Anna and Robert have been presumed dead in the boat explosion. Karen may have already been introduced; she was a part of the VolunTeens program at GH. Jagger is definitely introduced after when his crew plans to rob Kelly's after Ruby refuses to serve them beer. 

Reflecting now, I do wonder about how the transition would have worked in 1991 with Wendy Riche. Riche doesn't dump the cast. She keeps most around long enough for the writers to figure out what to do with them. I'm curious if Felicia & Frisco and Robert & Anna could have functioned in Riche's Port Charles. I don't know if either male actor would be interested in that vision of "General Hospital." Finola Hughes would have shined as Kristina Wagner did when she returned. 

10 hours ago, Khan said:

It's interesting that Gloria Monty was rumored to be in talks with SaBa.  Weren't there also rumors suggesting that she was in talks to take over AMC as well?  I think she could have done some good for SaBa, but I don't know if she would've been able to save it from cancellation.  (Frankly, I think SaBa was a goner by that point).

I came across the tidbit in a soap column in the newspapers when I was trying to figure out when Gloria Monty was announced as executive producer at "General Hospital." The "Santa Barbara" rumor was about a week or two before the announcement Monty was back at GH and it was in a column discussing the situation with "Santa Barbara" so I don't know about "All My Children."

On 11/27/2023 at 1:31 PM, Soapsuds said:

The ratings had a lot to do with it.

Why did ABC rehire her? GH was a solid #2 with a 7.5 rating. Once Gloria was done with destroying the show it had dropped to a 5.0 rating and ranked #7.

I think there were also rumblings about the cast unrest during Joe Hardy's run. Hardy also seems to have the same directive that Monty had by mining the show's history in his final months and grounding the typical over the top serial into a more recognizable world.

There was a drop around the time of the Casey the Alien tale, but every show drops around half a point that week so I am wondering if there wasn't a change in the Nielsen point value that week. 

On 11/27/2023 at 1:06 PM, Khan said:

For example, just 3-4 months after the Eckerts were introduced, Fred and Angela, the patriarch and matriarch of the family, were written out; and less than five months after Nancy was introduced, SHE was killed off!  Unless those quick exits had been the plan all along, I'd say either Monty or the network recognized right away that her new vision for the show was all wrong.

They were trying to write a wrong, but it only made it worse. There were better off just killing off Fred Eckert, dropping Carol Lawrence to recurring, and dumping Joey at the end of the summer after having him and A.J. fight over some girl. Dumping everyone at once only turned more people off because every time you tuned in it was new stories and new faces. They might have been able to survive one, but not both. 

On 11/29/2023 at 3:36 PM, titan1978 said:

And it never hit those numbers again, never a 7 or higher again IIRC. 

Her intentions were correct- more grounded characters, more modern concerns, better representation of economic differences. Her instincts and writing team didn’t help execute that vision.

Unfortunately she tried to shove too much new down viewers’ throats, and the Eckerts were not well positioned at all. The Quartermaines became support players, and the new cast members were not very popular. I know I only liked Mac and Julia in that whole bunch of characters. Nobody wanted Tony Geary on GH as anybody but Luke.

Within her first year, Wendy Riche added her own sensibilities which leaned more naturally into a grounded show, and by the time Luke & Laura returned and the Labine’s material started, it was a really strong show again.

What I wonder is if Riche had arrived earlier instead of Monty round 2, what would that have been like? Did GH have to crater in the ratings for the audience that would accept the more grounded vision? Or could she have hung on to those higher numbers? Would the audience in 1991 accept that GH?

I think the last spike is October, 1993, when Luke and Laura return, but that only gets the show to a 6.6. Once "General Hospital" falls into the tier 3 range with the shows that are all in half a point of each other it is hard for it to remain a solid #3, though it manages to do it on occasion. 

There wasn't much storytelling though in the early Eckert days. Or I should say there is very little to emotionally invest in. It didn't matter that the characters were mentioning their ethnic backgrounds or referenced things in the real-world. The lack of sensible storytelling is what kills the show's momentum, which is what I think you were probably alluding too on top of what you had already said. 

When Riche arrived, she was also better at stopping the bleeding of the cast turnover. After Lucy's departure, the cast seems more stable, which helps guide the show into the first two years of Riche before Labine's arrival. While I enjoy 1992, the ratings look terrible. It doesn't help that it is just solidly stuck in the middle of that group of 5 to 6 shows that are all super close and it now tends to trail. 

If Riche had been hired in December, 1990, I am not sure how things would have worked out. By the time Riche arrived, Linda Gottlieb was doing what she was doing at "One Life to Live" and Fran Sears manage to eek out a little bit of critical support for things like the Matthew Ford story. On the otherhand, late run Palumbo/Hardy has transitioned to a much mellower show so I think it could have been fine. 

On 12/1/2023 at 3:35 PM, j swift said:

If you think about it, Gloria Monty had a much bigger hurdle to get over the second time in terms of ratings.

In her first iteration, GH was unpopular, so her job was to create buzz and get people to watch.  She jazzed up the music, created controversy, and made GH a spectacle. But, before she was re-hired, Joe Hardy had taken the show from 1st to 8th place in the ratings.  He was disliked by the actors, and the press was critical of his choices. 

So, the audience was actively abandoning the show.  It is hard to get fans to make a new habit once it was broken.  Some may argue that she made it even more difficult by trying to persuade an audience to return by not giving them what they wanted (like Luke rather than Bill). 

But, that context is valuable to consider when we note that quality of storytelling was not the only reason for Gloria Monty's eventual failure to revive the show.

 

Joe Hardy inherited a number 2 show and it stayed a number 2 show. If it occasionally was listed as 3, it was because it had the same rating as another show but a smaller share. What Hardy and Palumbo did allow to happen was that "General Hospital" had a solid 1.0 point gap between itself and #3. They weren't increasing the numbers which tended to dip or stay relatively steady, while other shows rose. So ratings really weren't the issue in terms of dropping from #1 to #8. 

Monty needed to energize the show, which had a decent core, but no excitement. The stories she inherited weren't generating the energy that the show typically had. The storytelling fluctuated, but the cast had remained fairly stable in terms of the core.  

On 12/1/2023 at 8:29 PM, titan1978 said:

I think her essentially firing Finola Hughes and Tristan Roger’s quitting and basically telling ABC it was because of Monty that did her in. That was her two biggest stars on the show at that time. More than one cast member complained up the ladder that she was not on top of her game. Her husband had either passed away just before she arrived or soon into her run. She was inflexible and her instincts were just pissing everyone off that worked on the show.

Robert O'Bryne died on June 18, 1991, of a heart attack. 

On 11/27/2023 at 12:04 AM, Franko said:

Third Wave:

Out:

Nancy Eckert (Linda Dona, 10/14/91 -- whodunnit storyline for another month)

Felicia Jones (Kristina Wagner, 11/5/91; back in May 1992)

Dominique Taub (Tawny Fere Ellis, 11/14/91)

Finian O'Toole (Arte Johnson, 11/21/91?)

Harlan Barrett (Michael Cole, 11/22/91)

Leopold Taub (Chip Lucia, 12/5/91)

Cesar Faison (Anders Hove, 12/5/91)

Anna Devane (Finola Hughes, 12/17/91)

Susan Hornsby (Irina Cashen, 12/27/91)

Anna Devane (Camilla Moore, 1/20/92)

Cesar Faison (Anders Hove, 2/25/92)

Robert Scorpio (Tristan Rogers, 2/25/92)

David Langton (Jeff Pomerantz, 3/23/92)

Lucy Coe (Lynn Herring, 3/27/92)

 

In/Back:

Ned Ashton (Wally Kurth, 9/9/91)

Dr. Eric Simpson (Brandon Hooper, 9/18/91)

Edward Quartermaine (David Lewis, 11/26/91)

Dominique Taub (Shell Davidson, 12/3/91)

Jason Quartermaine (Steve Burton, 12/19/91)

Anna Devane (Camilla Moore, 12/20/91)

David Langton (Jeff Pomerantz, 1/13/92)

Holly Sutton (Emma Samms, 1/16/92)

Cesar Faison (Anders Hove, 1/17/92)

Nikki Langton (Camille Cooper, 1/30/92)

Monty is still credited as EP for January 31, 1992 episode, which is the last one in my collection from that period. I know on YouTube episodes, Wendy Riche is credited on the February 14, 1992, episode. 

This is where the cast deflections start to ramp up, but it really isn't felt that much in the story because the story is shifting already. The decision to beef up the Quartermaine clan again was smart. Edward's back from the dead story is brief, but it is symbolic of what the show will be rebuilding. Jason vs. A.J. is in the works from the beginning, although maybe not in the same form as it would later be. 

Eric Simpson's arrival is actually in your second Wave, the week of August 5-9, the latest. Simpson treated Dominique and Mac when they were in the hospital. He may have appeared slightly earlier as the Monty era secondary characters seem to emerge from the shadows at various points. 

Susan Hornsby is more forgotten than written out. I'm not even sure she was a constant present in Paul's life as her primary residence, I believe, was with Paul's parents. 

Monty's swan song days are stronger. She also brings back some of her old school background players. Slick Jones appears around the holidays for the festivities. Delfina is involved with the wedding preparations for Ned and Jenny's wedding. Monty finally seemed to find her groove after scorching the earth. 

Lucy's departure is all on Riche. I'd say the same for David Langton's as well. Langton's death is incredibly sudden and written when there is no headwriter. 

Also, the third wave sees the arrival of Linda Grover as Norma Monty's fellow headwriter. Grover quickly departs in mid-to-late Februrary under Riche. 

On 11/27/2023 at 12:04 AM, Franko said:

Second Wave

Out:

Fred Eckert (William Boyett, 5/31/91)

Angela Eckert (Carol Lawrence, 6/5/91; back for Jenny and Ned's wedding in February 1992)

Frisco Jones (Jack Wagner, 6/11/91)

Ned Ashton (Kurt McKinney, 8/30/91)

In/Back

Nancy Eckert (Linda Dona, 5/28/91)

Dominique Taub (Tawny Fere Ellis, 6/4/91)

Leopold Taub (Chip Lucia, 6/6/91)

Connor Olivera (Michael Lynch, 6/24/91)

Simone Hardy (Stephanie Williams, 6/25/91)

Cesar Faison (Anders Hove, 6/26/91)

A.J. Quartermaine (Gerald Hopkins, 6/26/91)

Nurse Sheila something-or-other (actress name?, 6/26/91 it appears)

Julia Barrett (Crystal Carson, 6/27/91)

Susan Hornsby (Irina Cashen, 8/21/91)

If you watch episodes from January, 1991, and from March, 1991, it was a completely different show. Not only were there a lot of new characters, anyone who stayed was in the backburner for the most part. The show started the year back in the 7s as it had the previous year and spiked with a 7.6 when Tony Geary returns as a new character. By April, the show is starting to hit 5.9, but mostly staying in the lower part of the 6s. "All My Children" overtakes it in the spring at various points which is probably another reason that Monty wanted to make changes. 

Jack Wagner leaving makes sense as Mac was starting to get a lot of the Frisco comical crime fighting stuff. 

Simone returning was smart. Stephanie E. Williams shouldn't have been let go to begin with. I think with Simone's return and the arrival of an adult A.J. the show was starting to move into a better direction. 

Joey Moscini is shipped off to college in June if I recall correctly. 

There are just some really wild choices. Connor initially is introduced as a spoiler for the new pairing of Dominique/Mac even though Dominique already has a husband. I thought Cesar was even worse than Casey the alien so bringing him back just seems insane to me, but I know that Faison seems to be well liked among long time fans. 

Also out during the second wave would be Gene Palumbo, who had been head writing the show since May, 1989. Norma Monty and John Whepley were writing with him in 1991 under Gloria Monty. 

On 11/27/2023 at 12:04 AM, Franko said:

Gloria's second run lasted from Monday, Dec. 3, 1990-Friday, Jan. 24, 1992.

Several years ago, I chronicled what I think is the definitive list of the three casting waves during that time. I'll pull it up again.

Okay, here's what I had gathered in 2018 thanks to the curlyqgrl summaries.

First Wave:

Out:

Katherine Delafield (Edie Lehman, 11/26/90)

Shep Casey (Bradley Lockerman, 12/21/90)

Rita Lloyd (Kim Terry, 1/10/91)

Lucy Coe (temporarily, for Lynn Herring's maternity leave, 1/29/91)

Broxton (actor name?, 2/1/91 it appears)

Simone Hardy (Stephanie Williams, 2/12/91)

Carla Greco (Laura Harring, 2/14/91?)

Frankie Greco (Robert Fontaine Jr., no clue on date, but presumably around this time)

Cheryl Stansbury (Jennifer Anglin, 2/14/91?)

Colton Shore (Scott Thompson Baker, 2/26/91)

Charlene Simpson (Maree Cheatham, 2/26/91)

Dawn Winthrop (Jennifer Guthrie, 2/27/91)

Eric Jackson/"Edge Jerome" (Mark St. James, no date given, but presumably late February-early March)

Nurse Jessie Brewer (Emily McLaughlin, 3/1/91; not a writing decision, but notable)

Decker Moss (Michael Watson, no date given, but presumably early March)

Larry Ashton (Hugo Napier, 3/22/91; back for a few days in July)

In/Back:

Jenny Eckert (Cheryl Richardson, 2/13/91)

Mac Scorpio (John J. York, 2/18/91)

Bill Eckert (Tony Geary, 2/19/91)

Fred Eckert (William Boyett, 2/20/91)

Angela Eckert (Carol Lawrence, 2/20/91)

Sly Eckert (Glenn Walker Harris Jr., 2/20/91)

Finian O'Toole (Arte Johnson, 2/22/91?)

Harlan Barrett (Michael Cole, 3/7/91)

Lucy Coe (Lynn Herring, 3/12/91)

Paul Hornsby (Paul Satterfield, 3/18/91)

Thanks for the list. I think Edie Lehman was pre-Monty. Katherine wasn't working. I am at the end of October, 1990. With Cheryl back, her days were numbered. Monty had no use for Cheryl so I don't think Katherine was a casualty of Monty. She would have been. 

Broxton was played by Norman Snow in this time period. 

Carla and Frankie both depart the same day as Colton and Charlene, February 26. This might be Robert Fortinero, Jr.'s only appearance in 1991 as he is rarely used once Monty appeared from what I saw earlier this year. 

I would move Nurse Sheila Contillion (Stacey Morez) up to the first round of new hires. She is appearing as early as March (if not February, I will update when I get there again in my viewing). She essentially replaces Dawn at the nurses' station. Joey Moscini is also around in February as he was on the S.S. Tracy as well. There are a lot of new recurring characters who seem like they are going to be more. There were a pair of siblings, Carol and Patrick Pulaski, who were friendly with the Eckerts. Carol was a love interest for Bill and Patrick seemed poised as the loser in love who would be Jenny's second tier love interest to the more exciting lead. Patrick worked as a mannequin dresser at Wyndham's. Carol was someone's secretary, I believe. Mac ended up doing community service at a center with a bunch of kooky types, but they may have arrived in the time of your second wave. 

Monty dumped all the characters who had been introduced since she left in 1987 (or was it 1986?). Also, no one in that first rounded who was added was returning. Herring was only returning from her maternity leave. 

Some rumor and context from the papers of the time: Monty was living in the Portland, Oregon, area prior to her return. She was looking to develop a production facility and launch a new soap opera from this new venture. I imagine many of the ideas for the new soap were lifted for the Eckerts. Also, prior to the announcement that Monty was returning to "General Hospital," there were rumors she was in talks to take over as EP at timeslot rival, "Santa Barbara." Also, wasn't "Guiding Light" under a creative resurgence by going the route of more realistic, emotional tales rather than the over the top insanity that had been so much of daytime throughout the 1980s?

On 11/14/2023 at 12:01 AM, j swift said:

GH kind of answered those questions when they visited Corinth, and it was a virtual ghost town that never recovered from the negative events of the murders

To be frank, i don´t take too much seriously from the man who made Ava Jerome the daughter of Delia. I also don´t think AU would have closed overnight. Enrollment may have dropped (most likely temporarily as no one cared when the co-ed prostitutes were murdered in the 1980s), but I would be hard pressed to see the decline from the murders alone. Maybe if AE also relocated because there wasn´t a single Alden in Corinth than that might make some of the decline make sense. With that said, I'd play a variation of that in the revival.  

On 11/14/2023 at 11:20 AM, Khan said:

Realistically, a LOVING revival would never happen, for a ton of reasons.  But I think a series about a town struggling to rebuild itself decades after a series of grisly murders caused citizens to flee and the local economy to evaporate would be something I'd like to watch.

It was never going to happen, but the perfect time for a ¨Loving¨ revival would have been 2020-2021 when COVID was driving people out of New York City into the less crowded suburban areas where some ambitious property developer saw Corinth as an opportunity to provide an oasis from the chaos going on in the world around them. The old AU factory could be turned into lofts or some other repurposed hipster attracting spot like a microbrewery. 

10 hours ago, SFK said:

ITA, and I disagreed with Lemay's criticism, particularly of the found family concept. I do think he was right in that the show could have used a little more generational representation. Say, a Myrtle Fargate-like grandma figure in the building. I'm specifically thinking of the older Latina woman Jesse and Jenny befriended during their summer in New York whose name I'm frustratingly forgetting at the moment. I don't know if the actress was still around at the time, but that would have been a lovely throwback to have her in the mix, she could have been Bernardo's abuela.

I seem to remember talk of ABC toying with the idea of airing same day repeats late at night. I may be confusing/combining memories with 13 Bourbon Street on FOX. At any rate, I would have loved that given the fact that I was always missing the show because of school and inconsistent VCR taping.

I believe some affiliates started airing in a late night time slot before the cancellation and that ABC may have been monitoring the situation to see if it was successful. 

I don´t think the found family concept alone was feasible. To highlight my point, I´ve seen bits of both ¨Tribes¨ and ¨Swan´s Crossing.¨ Both geared to a much younger audience than ¨The City,¨ but both operating in a sense outside the lines of the traditional soap format by shifting the show completely onto the lives of characters under 18 years old. SC only featured the young characters in contract roles and emphasised on the romantic complications of the characters with some action and adventure thrown in. TRIBES on the other hand offered up a tight, found family group of young leads with their fully developed parents in a supporting role. I find TRIBES more effective of the two as a result. Even ¨Edge of Night¨ had traditional family structures mixed amid the created family of law enforcement. 

The created family could have been central, but peripheral families should have been weaved in and out. The Roberts family drama comes off as mostly exploitation because of the underdeveloped parents. Azure C.´s brother and mother were featured in her story, but her story would have been deeper if the two characters had been developed beyond a short term dayplayer. The Soleitos appeared on occasion, but it might have been worth exploring that a little further.