vetsoapfan

As I recall, Alice and Iris didn't have a lot of interaction in later years, although Iris was invited to Alice's second marriage to Steven. I think she was present when Alice married Ray Gordon as well.

To be fair, I do suppose that if Goutman had been hell-bent on axing the vets, he could have campaigned to fire them outright. As far as we know, anyway, he did not try to do that. Molly, Katie, NuCraig, NuPaul, NuDusty, Henry...there were so many abrasive characters who were shoved down our throats in later years. I found many of the most-featured actors to be unbearable in those final years. But again to be fair, different viewers had different favorites. This has always been the case on soaps. It must be a challenge to balance out the interests and desires of all the different fanbases.

As the years went on, it was clear TPTB on many soaps did not respect their vets as much as they once did. I think savvy veteran performers knew it was in their best interest to be discreet in their public statements. (That comment by Penny was hilarious, and echoed what many viewers were thinking, I'm sure!)

Wagner was very vocal, and made her displeasure about being sidelined quite clear, back in the early 1980s when she was off contract for a few years. During the 2000s, however, I don't recall her making any public comments about how little Nancy was being used. Maybe she felt that her current position on the canvas was tenuous, and she did not not to rock the boat too much. Eileen Fulton, on the other hand, was a different story, and not shy at all about showing her resentment about Lisa's diminished capacity on the show. When being asked in a filmed, one-on-one interview about the various writers on ATWT, she offered a clipped and obviously irritated, "I have nothing to say!" when Sheffer was brought up. In a panel discussion, when Jean Passanante was discussing writing for the soap, Fulton snarked, "You left ME out of it!" Passanante was clearly startled and didn't know how to reply, but the conversation quickly moved on and the tense moment passed. OMG, I had never heard anything like that before. Go, Frances Reid!!!! Woohoo! Give him hell!

Oh, that's interesting. If DvD's character had also been in the Korean war, it would make sense that he had vague feelings about it.

That's definitely not an interview/story I read. In it, Hogan related the story of Wagner asking him to be used more on the show. He was quoted as saying that she may have been the matriarch, but he was going to write the show as he saw fit. My problem is not that he asserted his rights as the writer, per se, but that he revealed to the public a veteran actress had asked for more attention from her own series, and had been turned down by a newbie writer who didn't appear to understand the soap very well. Had I been Wagner, I would have been humiliated. Yep. It was one idiotic decision after another.

Thank you. That was very helpful. It saddens me that the show has killed him off, but at least we know Tommy's fate, now.

A kind poster has just told me that in scenes with Dick Van Dyke on DAYS, Julie Williams brought up her long-unmentioned uncle Tommy Horton, Jr., saying that he had had amnesia long ago and that he has passed away. I was so used to Tommy's living in oblivion, with no mention of his whereabouts or what had ever happened to him. Did Julie give any details about him or his death? (I'm sure the answer will be no, TPTB wouldn't care that much, but I am curious.) Thanks in advance.

I'll even endure Alan Locher to see this!!!

Seriously? I had no idea. At least now we know, after TPTB exiled the character to oblivion for so long, without explanation. Uncle Mickey had amnesia much more recently than Tommy. I wonder why the writers chose to talk about Tommy instead of him. Thanks for letting me know. I don't suppose Julie explained how and when he passed.

I wrote recently that some actors are just irreplaceable, and viewers can tell by instinct who they are. Once Don Hastings took over the role of Bob, he became one of them, but Rosemary Prinz had always been Penny, and the audience had a fierce attachment to her in the part from day one. The actress turned up in 1971 and only stayed part of that year, as I recall. Penny didn't have much to do other than interact with family members. My gut told me that TPTB were trying to slowly make the audience accept her as being part of the Hughes family before giving her any front-burner storyline. But while Dorin was adequate enough in the role, she just wasn't "our" Penny and never felt like a real part of the family. I was relieved when they had the character leave town again. Joe Kane only lasted for a while in 1970, before being replaced by Winifred Wolfe and Warren Swanson, whose work did not impress me. By early 1972, Irna was associated with the show again, whether or not P&G thought she was a pain in the a$$, LOL. When Robert Soderberg and Edith Sommer took over next, the writing was very good, and Oakdale felt like home once more for the next 5+ years.

While I am not a fan of much of what Pamela Long wrote during her original run on the show, I feel she "got" and developed the relationship between Rick and Phillip better than any other writer. (She was also the only one, IMHO, who understood and could write realistic humanity into Reva.) Under Long, Rick and Phillip had a strong emotional bond which couldn't be put into a conventional box. It often felt like Rick had subconscious feelings for Phillip, and that Phillip could not bear to see Rick be closer to anyone else other than him. Pam Long said that O'Leary asked her point blank if Rick were in love with Phillip, because that's how many of their scenes played out. I don't believe Chris Hughes had a relationship with anyone else like Rick Bauer had with Phillip, and to me, Chris' lack of realistic peer relationships kept the character from being fully developed and realized. It was a combination of poor, uncommitted writing and generally weak casting. Did the audience ever truly become emotionally involved with Chris? I think Rick "gelled" better in his earlier years because of the effective relationships he was given with the other Musketeers. But he grew wearisome and ineffective in later years, alas. I don't recall seeing much of a maturation process for Chris. He kept coming and going, and the show didn't seem to follow through with anything while he was younger. The character was not handled well at all. By the time Daniel Cosgrove assumed the role, I didn't feel as if we had seen enough of him growing up and interacting enough with other characters, so I just didn't have any emotional investment in him. That. INFURIATED. Me. We didn't see Penny or Don or Ellen or Andy or Frannie return for Nancy's passing, but we had even more Katie rammed down our throats.😡 So many legacy characters' deaths on soaps were badly bungled and ended up being insulting to the character and the audience. Nancy Hughes on ATWT and Bert Bauer on TGL were just two of the most egregious examples. The days of respectful tributes to vets like Grandpa Hughes, Chris Hughes and Papa Bauer ended long ago. Same here, and that's the problem. As the only male Bauer scion on the canvas, Rick should have been relevant, but he really wasn't. Unfortunately, the endless Manny stuff boxed Michelle into a corner, and Nancy St. Alban was probably the weakest actress in the role (Rachel Miner being the best). And when the show did SORAS Leah, it was ridiculously fast and jarring, only made worse because the show didn't do much with her anyway.

Yes. Sad as it may be admit, Michael O'Leary was not leading-man material, and that only became more apparent as the years went on, and the actor's "mugging" escalated. Both Christopher Hughes and Rick Bauer needed strong, dynamic, charismatic actors to make the roles succeed, and that never came to be.

Not to sound too catty, but it all confirms my belief that many award shows are bogus when it comes to handing out trophies in daytime drama categories. Fans know when certain people's work is not award-worthy. The judges? Not so much. I have a feeling that Sheffer and Carlivati won their awards for being "less bad" than the competition. I think most of us agree: bad casting was a major reason why the character of Chris never blossomed. TPTB never got the right actor for the part, although some were better than others. The Chris/Katie pairing was ridiculous and I cringed at the very thought of Katie joining the Hughes family. We DO! That's a good way to put it. Sheffer's harsh, dark, cynical tone was the polar opposite of the homey, warm, family-based and humane Oakdale we had once known and loved (when the show was number one in the ratings for decades, I might add). Even I have to give him credit for that. Compared to TGL, I almost want to give Goutman an award for keeping our vets with us until the bitter end. I started to see Lily as Oakdale's version of Reva Shayne: overused, spent and in need of retirement.

I appreciate conversations like this, in which posters can hold different beliefs about issues without becoming enraged and flinging ad hominem insults around. We've all seen what social media can be like, LOL. I respectfully disagree about the use of the vets in the 2000s. Back in the day, while Sheffer was writing the show, another message board would post daily cast appearances, and there were times when Lisa went weeks without being seen. Around the same time, Sheffer was asked in an interview why we barely saw Kim, whom viewers missed and clamored to see more often. He gave a reassuring reply that, soon, "We are going to be seeing a lot of Kim." But...we didn't. One thing that grated on my nerves the most is having to endure Helen Wagner's rare cameos on the show being used to prop up Katie. 🤢 Chris Goutman referred to her as "America's Princess," but I could not stand her. I would NEVER refer to folks like Jack and Carly as "vets." I regarded them, like Katie, as over-exposed interlopers. The problem about the new generation of certain families was that so many of the actors were poorly cast and/or did not stick around for long. It was difficult to care about them one way or the other. IMHO, the absolute WORST was Roger Howarth, such a mistake in the role of Paul. I do believe the "vet situation" improved under Jean Passanante, as much as I cringe at having to applaud her for anything, LOL!

All three of The Mod Squad leads seemed to fade away after the series ended, although much later, Peggy Lipton did turn up on Twin Peaks. It surprised me we did not see much of them after TMD left the air. They had been reasonably popular. And ITA about Maree Cheatham. As far as we can surmise, Marie is the only living offspring of Tom and Alice Horton (and Maree Cheatham is the only surviving original cast member). The character and the actress deserve a place on the canvas. And once and for all, I want answers as to whether or not Tommy Horton, Jr. is alive or dead.

I will grudgingly admit that a writer should have the power to write a show as he sees fit, but only to a point. When you take over a long-running series, you simply cannot cut off its roots and drastically alter its tone and style without severely damaging the program. If you assumed the reigns of, say, DALLAS, no one in power would allow you to ignore and marginalize the Ewing family. TPTB of the original Star Trek would not permit you to kill off Spock and write out Kirk and Bones. If you accept the job of writing a beloved franchise, its your obligation to keep essential components of it intact. What i find most offensive about the Sheffer/Wagner interaction is not just that he turned down her request, but that he spoke openly about it in the press. How humiliating for Wagner, a beloved original cast member and lynchpin of the program, to have her participation be undervalued so publicly. Sheffer should have been gracious enough to keep such a private conversation private. Agnes Nixon, Pat Falken Smith, Claire Labine, Douglas Marland, and a few other writers were rightfully applauded for studying the history of each soap they took over from other writers, and using the past effectively. I don't think a lot of scribes even bother. Pamela Long at TGL sure didn't know the history. Unless I am misremembering, I believe Ellen Dolan once said that Hogan Sheffer did not know that John Dixon was Margo's father. When fans of the soaps know more about them than the people writing and producing them, you know there's a problem.

True, but Goutman was present during both writers' terms, and JP's tenure still featured more screen-time for the vets than Sheffer's did. Helen Wagner once approached Sheffer personally and requested more appearances on the show. In an interview later, he said that although Wagner was the matriarch, he was going to continue writing the series as he saw fit. This suggested to me that HS had at least a certain degree of control over the stories he told and the actors he showcased. And clearly, Sheffer had his favorites. I believe he (or someone at P&G) had an issue against Eileen Fulton, who was basically marginalized to the status of an under-fiver during Sheffer's tenure. Penny was such a pivotal, beloved heroine with a staunch fanbase. I knew from the moment Phoebe Dorin appeared that the audience would close ranks and protest. Viewers never accepted another Mary Ryan on Ryan's Hope after Kate Mulgrew left. Even though the first recast, Mary Carney, was good, TPTB gave up on her almost immediately, but then the second recast, Kathleen Tolan, was HORRENDOUS. Replacing Tolan with the better-but-still-tepid Nicolette Goulet failed too. And don't even get me started on the misfires surrounding the "new" Alice Frames on AW. Yikes. Some actors truly cannot be replaced, and most of us know by instinct who they are. Yes, that was an opening to keep Paul Stewart's legacy and place in the show's history alive. Sadly, Stewart Cushing disappeared from Oakdale like many other members of the Lowell/Stewart family, never to be seen again. That TPTB never mined that clan for new characters to introduce in later years indicated to me the lack of knowledge or interest producers and writers had in ATWT's history.

When TPTB initially brought Bill Bauer back from the dead, I was hoping they would use him effectively and mine all the potentially-explosive family drama inherent in the situation. I was so disappointed that he just faded into the woodwork without any fanfare. Being such an historically-significant character with rich interpersonal-relationship possibilities, I kept hoping (dreaming in Technicolor, really🙄) that an intelligent writer would care about the integrity of TGL's past and the Bauer family enough to DO something worthwhile with this. Alas, we got Pamela Long and Gail Kobe, the annihilation of the Bauers, and an egregious, idiotic storyline that saw Bill end up dead, and the history of TGL's core families trashed.

I was certain that this would be an atrocious and painful production, but after watching the first episode, it was not as bad as I feared. The acting quality varied, but there were some good actors in the mix (along with some obviously weak ones). The sets were decent, too; not as cheap as I figured they would be. It did not lure me into watching any more (too generic), but it was a curio, to be sure. Thanks for uploading.

I hope you did not think that I was in any way, shape, or form praising Passanante's work. EEEK!😬 I generally found her material to be tepid and uninspired. That being said, Sheffer's obvious preference not to write for the vets was both insulting and infuriating. JP's throwing them occasional bones made me consider her work "less bad," if only by comparison. @Reverend Ruthledge explained the situation quite well in his reply. Irna Phillips was wont to make sweeping changes and clean house when she felt like it. She had made up her mind a while before to kill off Liz Stewart, and I've always felt that (finally being able to do so), the writer wanted to put the character and the storylines surrounding Liz to rest. Paul had never been a major character anyway. (Even so, I was perturbed by Ellen's colorless reaction to hearing about his death. She gave a vaguely troubled speech about how these things happen, and that we all must just...move on. It was oddly underplayed.)🤔 Bravo! You summarized the situation and Bill Bauer's character so beautifully and succinctly. So much was left unsaid and undone for him in the end. Watching Pamela Long and Gail Kobe kill him off in 1983, to serve a heinously-stupid and pointless plot, was infuriating. So much family drama could have been mined from Bill Bauer's working on his demons, hashing out his relationship with Ed, and slowly mellowing into a sadder-but-wiser, repentant patriarchal figure. You have nooooo idea, LOL! It took a while for the character to succumb to her injuries, but when she did, the audience was infuriated and made their feelings known. Even with a replacement actress in the role, viewers made it clear that they could learn to accept a "new" Liz over time, but not NO LIZ AT ALL. (It's curious how viewers accept some replacements, but staunchly refuse to accept others. When ATWT attempted replacing Rosemary Prinz with Phoebe Dorin, viewers revolted, and the "new Penny" was shown the door less than a year after being introduced. I did not want to deal with a replacement Penny, but to be fair, Dorin had a resemblance to Prinz and seemed to be a decent actress.) I can vouch for the breadth of your historical knowledge, and I daresay that the majority of SONers want you to share more!👍 100%, yes. The original actress, Jane House, had wanted to leave the show, but the replacement (Judith McGilligan) was fired. Thank you, but more likely, I have a big mouth and just like chatting, LOL!

Yep, our Bert was a pistol way back when. It's a real testament to Charita Bauer's skill that she could imbue Bert with so many layers throughout the decades, and never once play a false note. One of my favorite TGL episodes of all time is one in which Bert lambasts Ed for his attitude towards his father. She calls her son a "small man" and laments that it horrifies her to see it. Human drama at its finest; the type soaps used to do so well. (Although I adored her and would always champion her remaining on the show, I must admit that I found Helen Wagner to be a little...crusty, LOL.) I don't know what is still/currently available online, but many of the vintage B&W episodes of TGL and ATWT are well worth checking out. Once you start watching them, it's like you fall down a rabbit hole and can't stop yourself from devouring more. You have been warned! I agree. Viewers of soaps, from what I've witnessed, tend to love and enjoy nods to history. I was no fan of Jean Passanante, but I will acknowledge that she did pay some attention to the vets towards the end of the series. More than Sheffer did. Even Lisa (!!!) got a few lines here and there! Of all the scribes who assumed the reigns of established soaps, I truly respected a select few who were excellent at researching their new shows' histories in-depth and using the past effectively. Pat Falken Smith, Douglas Marland, Claire Labine and Agnes Nixon really shone in this regard. Ohhh, good point. The old stereotype about matrimony and motherhood being the end-all-be-all for women lasted a long, long time. When Bob was married to Jennifer Ryan, he told Nancy that Jennifer might be most fulfilled by being a wife, a mother, AND a career woman. Nancy immediately pooh-poohed the very idea with a dismissive, "Oh, Bob! Whoever heard of such a thing?!?"

At 10:30, that cretin who snarked that the women's husbands should just "put them to sleep" was so misogynistic and disgusting. UGH. At least his comment was met with dead silence from the audience. And Eileen Fulton gave him some pushback.

Actually, in ATWT's earlier years, Nancy was (or at least, could be when she was vexed) a bit of a pill. She used to light into Bob and harangue him a lot. If she did not like you, she'd make it very clear. When her son Donald got married to a woman named Janice Turner, of whom Nancy disapproved, Nancy sobbed loudly and obnoxiously throughout the ceremony. She always thought she was right. What made her redeemable, though, was that she was such a recognizable character; everyone in life knows or has known a woman like that. So we rolled our eyes and sighed and said, "Ohhhh, that's just Nancy!" Plus, her love of, and loyalty to, her family was staunch and unquestionable. Nancy only softened noticeably in the 1980s, when Douglas Marland wrote her and Chris Hughes back into the show. BTW, many fans always regarded Bert Bauer on TGL as a warm and benevolent matriarchal figure, but in her earlier days, she was something of a shrew. Her husband, Bill, even slapped her once. Both women came a long way as they got older.

Right. And while I generally loathe insta-relative retcons, I swallowed my distaste because because bringing in another Matthews at least gave Aunt Liz more to do. ITA. The audience might have been more agreeable to accepting a new Steve if the true version of Alice did.