vetsoapfan

That's an important point. Even if fellow commentators wish to influence what other posters discuss on message boards (out of boredom, frustration, disinterest, whatever) it's unlikely to happen. Subjects which one person would prefer to see set aside, another person is curious about and wants to see explored more. Personally, I am totally surfeited with the social media attention paid to a certain tangerine-tinted individual who is constantly discussed EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME, but obviously other people are still interested in hearing about, reading about, and talking about the individual in question. If it bothers me, it's my own obligation to avoid engaging in discussions about those whom I no longer wish to discuss. On the internet, scrolling down is pretty easy. Today on Facebook, a group moderator posted a photograph of an actor whom she found attractive. While a surprising number of members were oohing and ahhing, one man announced that he did not want to see posts like this again, because lust was a sin, and all the posters drooling over the photo needed to REPENT and read the good book. 🙄 To that I would ask, why did he even click on the link??? I agree. I've always found it interesting that so many soap fans investigate their shows' histories, and become engrossed by past material they never even watched first-hand. AW's brilliant past held a cornucopia of fascinating characters and storylines which could have been mined for present-day drama, if only TPTB cared to do so. Considering all the dialogue soap actors have to memorize daily, I'm astonished when certain actors can handle it flawlessly, and I'm sympathetic towards people like Hugh Marlowe, who obviously struggled a lot. I watched the show daily during Lemay's run (while I criticize him for certain things, I have always acknowledged the excellent work he did from 1971-1975), and people like Jacqueline Courtney and Virginia Dwyer were much more adept at dealing with their lines than other actors like Marlowe. Right. Sometimes even the actors, writers and producers involved get confused about past facts. Agnes Nixon's autobiography included some obvious blunders about her time on OLTL. Harding Lemay has said that AW's ratings before he arrived were not satisfactory, and that he made them jump, but the facts don't bear out that contention. Before Lemay took over, Robert Cenedella had been the head scribe for a few years. While I would never claim that Cenedella was a writer of Agnes Nixon's or Harding Lemay's skill, he was at least adequate. Contrary to Lemay's assertion about his own tenure, he did not make the ratings increase to any significant degree (although granted, the writing was much better). In the 1968-69 season, AW had an average rating of 10.5. In 1969-70, the rating was 9.6. In 1970-71, 9.5. Lemay was hired in 1971. In 1971-72, AW's rating was 9.1. In the 1972-73 and 1973-74 seasons: 9.7. By 1979, the show had dipped to a 7.5. (All ratings taken from The Soap Opera Encyclopedia by Christopher Schemering. The yearly ratings can also be checked here on SON, in the Ratings Archives.) The cast massacre of 1975 and the declining quality of Lemay's work in the mid-1970s, IMHO, contributed to the slow sinking in the ratings. It was a shame to witness AW's decline, after it had been a daytime jewel for so long.

I had no idea this thread even existed. Thanks for the heads up!👏 I never wanted Uncle Dru to be written out in the first place. As a character who had been featured on The Brighter Day, As the World Turns, and then Another World, he was like a lynchpin of the Irna-verse. Plus, I have always found warm and wise patriarchal and matriarchal figures on soaps to be comforting. If the show could have ever gotten good writers who were knowledgeable about and invested in the show's rich past, I would have asked Jacqueline Courtney to return again and USE HER EFFECTIVELY this time. I probably would have brought Ricky Matthews and Wally Curtin back to Bay City too. To newer viewers, Wally would have been like any other new character they were asked to invest in, but his addition to the canvas would be a nice nod to history for veteran viewers. I realize TPTB would veto a sudden influx of much-older characters, but it would have been wonderful to see Beverly Penberthy and Sam Groom put back on contract as Pat Randolph and Russ Matthews.

Seeing egregious mistakes in and distortions of history can make me laugh AND cringe in agony, if that makes sense. The slight "bone of contention" I had with Liz's fall on the stairs, was that I really didn't see how she could have had the life-threatening (and ultimately life-ending) injuries from the accident. But on television, we often have to suspend disbelief and "go with the flow," so to speak. That's what I strive to do, the majority of the time on social media. I must admit, however, that if people are being willfully and relentlessly antagonistic for extended periods, I will not hesitate to..."toy" with them for my own amusement.🫢

Yep, me too. I've always said that it's better to actually BE alone, than to continue putting up with people who make you WISH you were.😁

ARGH! I reeeeeally want to see those scenes now. Thanks for the screenshots, @Liberty City. I never thought I'd see Marlena and Maggie share a scene again. Strangely, even after not being a regular soap viewer for a few decades, I am still interested in "my" characters. Once a soap addict, always a soap addict!

@Liberty City, thanks for sharing the latest photos. I can accept differences in paint color and living room furniture, but the shifting position of the front door in the foyer annoys me, LOL. BTW, I was not able to see any of the recent flashback episodes with Tom and Alice. Did DAYS feature any "real" Horton-family scenes from years gone by, or did we only get recreated flashbacks with the young actors? And I haven't seen any interaction between Maggie and Marlena in so many years. I wish I could find their recent scene(s) together on-line somewhere. What was the context; what did they talk about?

What I meant was, that I tried twice to put my participation in the discussion to rest by posting, "...it's true: you have every right to disagree. There is not, nor should there be, forced conformity of opinion." And then later, "Sometimes the wires of communication get tangled. it happens." Both comments were designed to let the issue drop, since agreeing to disagree and then moving on works best when different people have opposing, firmly-held viewpoints. Perfectly said, from top to bottom. 👏 I daresay that certain debates will rage on forever among internet commentators: https://neal.fun/lets-settle-this/ For soap fans, in particular, viewers have been rehashing and debating Maureen Bauer's death on TGL for decades. Ditto: "Who was the better Rachel on AW: Strasser or Wyndham?" And, "Do sci-fi and camp elements belong on daytime TV?" Not to mention, "Should ailing, long-suffering soaps just be cancelled and put out of their misery?" The list (and the debates!) go on. You are 100% right when you point out that not every subject will be of interest to every person. But that's just the way message boards work.🤷‍♂️

Saying that Lemay pushed hard for Dwyer's dismissal cannot be taken to mean that Paul Rauch did not agree. Obviously the move was okayed by TPTB. That being said, I had no interest in getting into another extended discussion about it, which is why I cut it short.

Sometimes the wires of communication get tangled. it happens.🤷‍♂️

You are basing your reply on an erroneous misinterpretation of what I actually said. I neither wrote nor implied that Lemay "undermined" Rauch. Where you got that idea, I have no idea. I'd counter that his snide and untruthful commentary about certain people would contradict that statement, but... ...it's true: you have every right to disagree. There is not, nor should there be, forced conformity of opinion.

Haven't you read Lemay's book more than once? 🤣

Lemay has been repeatedly quoted as acknowledging his insistence that Dwyer be fired. Raunch could have fought against it, perhaps, but he did not, and both men have revealed their arrogance and control issues over the years.

You'll notice that Marlowe has never been quoted as saying he had trouble with Dwyer; it was all Lemay. And yes, the scribe would vehemently condemn some actors (like Dwyer) for the EXACT SAME on-set behavior that he praised his pets for.

That story came from Harding Lemay, who loathed Virginia Dwyer for reasons of his own. He claimed that it was Dwyer who made Marlowe stumble over his lines all the time. I call BS. Poor Marlowe forgot and got tangled in his dialogue a lot, with many different scene partners, and the problem only got worse after Dwyer was long gone. I'd say Lemay was smearing Dwyer to justify his very unpopular demand that she be fired.

There's a major difference between getting injured by falling as you are running up the stairs and "falling up the stairs," which is how various condescending critics and clueless soap "historians" have described the scene. Just trying to make fun of the soaps, as usual, I guess. But viewers who actually watched know good the show was back then. I had to give up on the Soaps & Serials books pretty quickly, because their glaring errors and "creative reinterpretation of history" drove me crazy. The only soap novelizations which I've read, and which were reasonably accurate, were Another World I and Another World II, by Kate Lowe Kerrigan.

Ellen never let up on Susan, either. Scenes like this add realism and relatability to the characters. Let's face it, some of us can hold grudges for life.😝 I'd pay to see that!

The death-by-falling-up-the-stairs myth is firmly ingrained in soap opera lore, but never actually happened. Liz Stewart on ATWT was seriously injured when she fell while running up the stairs. Critics have spun this as she "fell up the staircase," which of course is absurd and never happened. Folks just took pleasure in mocking the soaps. I always found it amusing how long and hard Ellen would and could hold onto a grudge, LOL.

No harm, no foul, no sweat.🙂

In no way did I ever say, or imply, that I give Stern and Black a pass. I acknowledged their contribution to ATWT was weak. I would never hire them to steer any soap again. I said they were not my choice for the absolute WORST writers in daytime's history. That cannot be construed as giving them a pass. I'd add Henry Slesar's years at The Edge of Night to my dream list of TGL, ATWT, AW, DAYS, Y&R, OLTL, GH, AMC and probably even SOM (all in their best years, not necessarily in their entirety). Most people I speak to agree he was a destructive, negative force.

The unabortion ranks down there in the pit of soap-story hell, and I agree with MMcT beings dreadful, but overall, I have to say JER was worse. Not like JER, Carlivati, Pratt, McTavish, Racina, Higley, and others whose tenures seemed to last forever. That's why I assert that Stern and Black were not the worst of the worst in the history of the genre.. When TPTB don't care about older viewers of soaps, they are signing the shows' death warrants. Older viewers are a huge part of the potential audience. Alas. 🥺 Over the years, I have also thought about the different ways which the Stewarts could have been revitalized and returned to prominence. But I knew the show, its characters and its history, and I cared about ATWT's legacy. I have a feeling this was not the case among the revolving door of TPTB. Me too. And to give Marland credit, he kept David Stewart's presence alive on the show until he had no other choice than to replace Henderson Forsythe with another actor, or lay the character to rest. And after David's death, Marland kept Ellen around and seen fairly regularly. Marland knew that on ATWT, audience love for the characters was strong.

UGH! JER eviscerated DAYS, IMHO. MMcT might have been somewhat less heinous, but she really stunk up the joint in Springfield and Pine Valley. It is bewildering that soaps have failed to cultivate and hire quality writers in so many, many years. Obviously, recycling familiar hacks who have failed everywhere else does not work. At the very least, hiring Stern and Black was a stab at trying something different. Having watched the show my entire life, I was quite partial to the Lowell/Stewart family, and Ellen was its remaining lynchpin. I was furious when TPTB dropped the character without any reason given on-screen (at the time, anyway). I had to admit, however, that with almost all of her family gone, and with Ellen a widow, I was surprised she lasted as long as she did. Actually that is a good point: GH's use of "older" characters may very well be an attempt to interest/lure back lapsed (now older) viewers. The show would probably not feature appearances by Scorpio, Anna and other folks of a certain age to bedazzle 18-year-olds in the audience. One could say that DAYS might be continuing to use Julie, Doug, Maggie, Marlena and John because of longtime viewers' loyalty to those characters, not in an attempt to pander to Gen Zers. The fact that ATWT held on to so many of its older veteran actors was an incredible gift. It was just an infuriating waste that Sheffer barely used them most of the time. I'm not fan of Jean Passanante, but at least she did pay attention to folks like Bob and Kim more than Sheffer did. Yes, the "suits" should have backed off decades ago and let soaps be soaps and do what daytime dramas do best, without all the ((ahem)) helpful hints and outright mandates from TPTB. The micro-managing was always misguided at best and harmful at worst. I will hold my breath, pinch my nose, and give Frank a brownie point for that. In all seriousness, many executive producers would have dismissed many of the veteran actors and characters. With a lot of them still on GH's canvas, there's at least a chance they will be used well someday. Fingers crossed, Patrick Mulcahey. What a shame that we will never see ATWT get the chance to shine again.

This is an honest question and NOT in any way meant to come across as snarky. What are the remaining soaps doing these days that indicate they are working towards improving their general ratings? From my (admittedly limited) interest in today's soaps, I only see them making the same old mistakes over and over again. And also, do you think that the way TPTB are handling the surviving soaps will do any good and actually help the anemic ratings increase? Again, no snark intended. But things can always...get worse, LOL! Seriously, from my personal experience viewing their ATWT material, I do not believe they were the worst-of-the-worst soap scribes. Not great by any means, but soap fans have endured weaker and more destructive head writers, IMHO.

Oh, yes, if intelligent, perceptive and knowledgeable PTB had been in charge a few decades ago, and had worked effectively to stop the hemorrhaging of daytime dramas, old warhorses like ATWT (which still had a viable, but misused, foundation upon its cancellation) might very well have survived and potentially even thrived. Unfortunately, the money-hungry and oppresive, micro-managing suits just continued to drive the shows into the ground. You can listen to vintage radio soaps and watch older television episodes from the 1950s, and quickly become immersed in the drama because it was predicated on identifiable human emotions; experiences the audience often shared and could identify with. It's telling to me that in 2024, so many viewers are caught up in the Hortons losing their house, the family's Christmas ornaments being at risk, and Doug's impending death. Nobody expresses this much emotional involvement in brain implants and uber villains threatening to kidnap the central heroine for the 17th time. The viewers want the timeless basics of the genre. They're not getting them. The soaps are dwindling away. And after decades, TIIC still don't get it.

The soap press died a long, slow and brutal death; much like the soaps themselves. I get sh*t for saying this from stans who insist that I must praise the soaps to the heavens at all times, to convince TPTB to keep them on the air, but honestly? With little-to-no hope of the genre ever healing, I wouldn't be too crushed if the remaining four shows were laid to rest. Put them out of their misery.

Perfectly said. When ATWT was number one in the ratings for its first two decades, and when it commanded fierce and unwavering fan devotion, a sense of community, warmth, humanity, family values and decency were the cornerstones of the show. When all those "old-fashioned" tenants were wiped out in favor of harsh, mean-spirited and callous shenanigans, the show was in deep, deep trouble. None of the modern era's PTB knew how to fix it, and I daresay most of them didn't care to return Oakdale to its roots. The soap just got worse and worse. Jack Snyder's sexual abuse by Julia came across (to me) in a sniggering way, which I found offensive. It was like the audience was supposed to find some truly ugly events amusing (wink, wink), and they just weren't. The uglier the events on screen became, the less ATWT resembled...ATWT.