j swift

I'm confused by how much of an actual entity ABC Daytime is any longer? Tamran and GMA will fill two hours (both produced by the news division), and GH a third. However, I thought that after the cancellation of OLTL and AMC, the daytime division got sucked into the overall network structure and affiliates were no longer required to play the entire daytime schedule. ABC Daytime even got renamed Time Square Studios once more time was given to the affiliates to schedule on their own. Furthermore, it was my understanding that NBC has handed most of daytime programing to the affiliates with no specific daytime department, while CBS maintains a daytime division to handle The Talk, the game shows and their deal with Sony for the soaps So, if ABC Daytime is a thing of the past, why would ABC expect the same clearance across affiliates for Tamran as they got for The Chew? There was a time when stations were threatened with loosing network affiliation if they didn't broadcast all of the network's shows. But now that time was given back to the affiliates to fill with cheaper to produce/higher rated local news doesn't it doom most new daytime network shows?

I was a fan of Maggie and Dave the Deli Guy in my youth. At the time we did not have the "opportunity" of hearing other fans opinions, so I was unaware that people hated the period of the show when the action left the bar. I later watched the early soapnet episodes and the tone is so different that I understand why long time viewers would not enjoy the Maggie/Max/Dave saga. My specific recall is a Friday cliffhanger when a bomb had been placed in the deli. I was going to summer camp that weekend and made a friend promise to send me a postcard telling me the outcome of the cliffhanger. Mail took some time in those days, and I got caught up in my own summertime experiences, so when a postcard came and said in big bubble letters, "the bomb never blew" I actually had no idea what it meant. I compared Maggie to Kimberly because they both shared relationships with Roger that in hindsight seem a little creepy. Not just the age difference, but Roger got so obsessive when he was in a relationship. Writers were always walking a fine line with Roger between being romantic and being ominous.

@DRW50Did you prefer Maggie over Kimberly?

It seems to me that head writing is a lot like chess, in that you have a few players and you have to plan ahead. I think that the projections on to writers of being bored with certain characters, or even the old chestnut about writers being financially compensated for not writing for a prior writer's characters, are overblown. Occum's Razor suggests that a writer like Pam Long didn't write for Rita because her story function was already fulfilled by others on canvas. If Long wanted a liberated woman who could go up against Alan she had Reva, so she didn't another character who played the same function. If Long wanted an alternate mother figure for Phillip she had Alex so she didn't need Jackie. Similarly, when Bill was killed off, Lesie's father Dr. Jackson was still around to play a mentor toward Ed. I understand that a well designed character could have returned, or stayed, for any period of time. However, I don't think that writers have a duty to maintain or retrieve characters if their function is currently being replicated by another character that they created.

As I recall, Rae was introduced when her husband died at the hospital (maybe in a helicopter crash?). Does anyone recall how long it took for Kimberly to be introduced and was it assumed that Rae's husband was her father? I know it turned out to be Hollis Kirkland, but was Kim's paternity ever discussed prior to his arrival?

I would argue that in a universe where your exes are named Calla, Blake, and India, Ben is a little rarer (ed note, I forgot about Ben Reade)... It has become my life's work to prove this theory - Soap writers who repeat first names within a character's history rarely care about cannon, and are invariably hacks who failed to entertain long time viewers. Who would argue that the writers who created Ben Warren or Sarah Shayne were better than those who created Ben McFadden and Sara Mcintyre? If a writer lacks the creativity not to reuse a common name, they usually lack creativity in plots as well.

When you think about Ross's immediate family, Jackie & Justin exiting, and Marland's Carrie story getting cut short, it is a wonder that he lasted as long as he did within the story. BTW another proffer of my theory that when a writer repeats a first name within character's story they don't care about cannon - Ben McFarren, who Ross competed with romantically during the story of his sister Lanie being injured & Ben Warren his retconned half-brother who never knew Lanie existed. Also, while I agree with the comments about none of the ladies of Springfield being frumpy (until later), don't you miss off-beat looking actresses like Sofia Geier who played Diane?

Yes, and here's a tidbit. Trevor Donovan (who played the ill-fated Jeremy in the same story) lives in Weho near where Marcus used to dance. I have seen him walk his dogs and never acknowledge Marcus or the huge picture of Marcus that was on Santa Monica Blvd. Trevor still looks great but is often seen wearing athletic tights under his shorts and that is a look that I do not prefer.

It didn't even make sense within the plot at the time. Amanda didn't need to be SORAS'ed or De-SORAS'ed in order to be involved with Roger because he had been with Rita who was supposed to be a similar age to Amanda. There was no advantage to making her Alexandra's niece, rather than her sister. It was like a posthumous slap to Jennifer that she slept with both father and son, then didn't know the father of her own kid (although if she didn't know, how did anyone else find out?). And don't get me started on a woman who played with dolls until she was 20 suddenly becoming a Malibu madame. I think the biggest travesty was pitting Alan against Phillip. Alan was always protective of Phillip growing up, he fought for custody (even thought it mostly motivated by spite for his ex-wife), and even A-M was jealous of their relationship. However, all of the BS of Alan shooting Phillip, competing for women together, and what I consider to be Alan's failing to take care of Phillip during his mental health issues betrayed all of that early stuff. If all of those yucky years hadn't happened, I would have liked Hope, or ghost Elizabeth, or even Beth to verbally acknowledge Alan for being so loyal to Phillip before he died. Yes, as I recall there was a mystery over who was the European lady who bought the TV station (WSPR?) and it turned out to be Holly.

There's a topic on the other board about families that look alike. The Bauer's look like German/Irish-mom Bert, with her Irish-looking son Ed, and his Italian brother Mike. Are we sure that Bert didn't have an affair with a local Sicilian while Bill was drunk? Also, to go back a few posts, didn't Holly have a title like Lady Lindsay or something when she lived in Europe after leaving Springfield? I giggle at the detail that Holly was a stewardess; that's a thread that was dropped over the years.

I was thinking about how Ed's entire character and motivation changed as he aged. Feel free to correct, but Ed always struck me as the most ambitious Bauer. He looked up to Dr Jackson and wanted to ascend at Ceder's. He bought the house next to the Spaulding's (I know Rita wanted it, but Ed gave in quickly) and looked down upon Bill as a loser. Obviously he was humbled by his fight with alcoholism, and he let jealousy ruin his relationships, but not until the last week when he ran away with Holly did he seem like the guys striving for more; as he had been in the 70's. Its funny how on soaps, unlike real life, people mature simply because they age not because of lessons learned.

That's amazing!, thanks for filling in the blanks. I remember it because there was also an "E" Behind the Scenes episode being filmed of the event and Deidre promised that Marlena and John were getting back together. The whole time I was thinking that it was implausible that Marlena (nor either of her ex-husbands) would be fans of slapstick comedy.

How funny is little Fredrick upset on the sofa looking at Crissy? I wonder if he's thinking, "someday she's going to implicate me as the father of one of her twins!" Also, wow, Dr Sara is much prettier than I imagined when reading about her! She was always marrying some loser on the rebound while on vacation, so I guess I thought she was frumpier. Although, given soap casting, that could have been considered frumpy at the time...

I feel guilty saying this, but my first thought on reading the proposal was that Deidre Hall has always overestimated her comedic appeal. I recall an early Salem Place episode when they dressed up in funny costumes to go to the movies. There was something about Marlena's overly made-up/coiffed sophistication mixed with the silly costume that did not work to full effect. Marlena as "straight man" to Eugene was the cringiest time of DAYS for me (a psychiatrist goofing around with an ex-client creeps me out). So, I guess I'm glad this didn't go forward; 25 years ago. Also, while I am intrigued by Tommy Horton's adaptation to medicine in a tropical setting, Sandy Horton was never intriguing enough to build a spin-off upon. I'm sure it was more of an issue of casting than character, but she was always a bit of a bore. If we're playing fantasy spin-off, I would have liked either a Dark Shadows-esque origin story of the Dimera family in Europe or an EON-type short mystery arc oriented soap with Marlena and Whomever in Hart to Hart-like roles.

On the Classic SOD tumblr there was a whole story about Pacific Lives and the plans for the series. Has Deidre Hall ever discussed what happened? Was it shelved for Sunset Beach? I cannot remember that timeline. The bible and proposal for that show would be so fun to read. I wish those things were digitized and searchable.

Touche, you've found the weakness in my argument about facial recognition in the afterlife - lol. That picture is fantastic, the costumes for Jackie and Rita look so contemporary and chic. That was before my time, so please excuse my ignorance, but who is in the light blue dress next to Ed?

Given his track record it would be hard to predict if a Chris Goutman memoir would be well written, but I bet he has good stories.

I like it but, how would Rick recognize Leslie? He was a baby when she died. On the other hand, Alan's death makes me choke up just thinking about it. I guess I am not in the majority but I thought the final week was really good, not just given the circumstances. The stuff with Lilian was great and I adored Ed and Holly impulsive running off together. BTW,- years later - which finale week couple would most likely still be together: Rick & Mindy, Buzz & Lilian, or Ed & Holly? My bet is Ed & Holly never made it past Europe. Also didn't Holly have a royal title at one point after she came back from Switzerland?

Paul Cramer is the one of the oddest retcons in a soap filled with retcons. It made me feel bad for Melinda Cramer and how she was being mistreated and kept from her children. As I recall, Paul's entire existence was explained upon his entry and never re-visited or questioned. For a soap that often prided itself on telling respectful stories about mental illness, I think that having two mentally ill sisters give birth and never have a relationship with their daughters was not very progressive. I would argue that if a proposed CJ romance was squashed, it would have been the only impact that this completely useless character ever played in the plot. First, his prior relationship with Babe was never explored and it was a total red herring. Then, he forms this instant bond with nuKelly so he steals a baby for her within five months of meeting each other. An unknown extra could have piloted the helicopter, delivered and switched the babies, and then been minor plot point in the story. If you track back from the end of the story, the coincidence that Babe and Kelly were connected was not an essential detail; they could have changed infants in a number of other ways. A triple-baby-switch-crossover is enough, his ties to Dorian and her family were completely superfluous and silly. Finally, correct me if I am wrong, but by the end he wasn't even in the Cramer orbit with any frequency, and I don't think they ever told Addie about him. Oy, don't even get started on Sudden-Aunt-Betsy. Dorian saved throughout med school to pay for Addie and then this bitch comes along? I don't think so. We met Dorian's parents in an already retconed history when she was with Mel, we didn't need a re-visiting to the convoluted Cramer family tree. For all of the talk of "Cramer Women", Dorian, Addie, and Melinda together had five secret children (Cassie, Adrianna, Kelly, Paul, and Blair) that they never raised and that's a weird family detail.

Looking back, Katherine's enabling of Phillip's anger toward Jill was inappropriate. First, she houses the boy and allows him to stay away from his mother; when Katherine had no claim to Phillip beyond the fact that he shared a first name with her ex-husband. Then, given her own history of alcoholism and recovery, she continued to enable a rift while recognizing that Phillip had a drinking problem.

I just read a recap from 2001 about Donna Love agreeing to be a nanny for Vicky's twins. Sigh..... Not only is Donna one of the worst choices as a nanny in Bay City, but in what universe would Donna Love Hutchins Hudson allow herself to be anyone's household staff?

Its interesting that you bring up Holly and Roger because my earlier comment about preferring Bert not having to forgive Bill also goes for Roger. I get that they needed to address the history. However, I was reading the 1990 recap when they are set up in the Caribbean by Alexandra (who is jealous of a woman and her rapist) and Roger tearfully apologizes. Roger then spends the rest of the 90's either being a charming cad, a scheming cad, or seething with anger. Holly learns nothing, gets scammed by Daniel, goes nuts, and finds love at the very end. I hate it in retrospect. I hate that Holly, who seemed liberated, still was reactive to whatever Roger does, rather than having her own strength. I hate that Blake still admires Roger rather than Holly. I hate that Roger gets one hot lady after another and Holly gets the leftovers from every b-story hero. I wish she hadn't forgiven him and made him uncomfortable in every room she entered for the rest of the character's life.

A fine example of why I am endlessly entertained by this board. I was thinking about characters who came on with a bang, but were an instant bust because of behind the scenes shenanigans. Tangie was the first example to spring to mind. I knew that the writers changed but I had forgotten all of this detail. We are lucky to have this resource to keep these references fresh, and thanks to anyone who can recall the information so succinctly and with such humor. The whole convoluted backstory with Roger was odd with details of her being sold to him at 15. Then, there was an almost immediate backtracking so that Roger was less of a perv. Also, for two years her motivations were never clarified; was she a con or a good guy? From her intro she works as a prototype for future European Dinah. But also, a great example that it takes a village to screw up a character; no single writer, actor, or producer is to blame in this situation.

Does anyone recall the reason given why Mac didn't attend Iris's wedding(s) in Texas?

Its instructive to think that at the end of series Reva was 8 years younger than Bert was when she died. Yet, Bert was written like an old lady from the early 70's onward. Perhaps one of the variables that we miss when critiquing the arc/aging of a character is how much the actor's vanity prevents the telling of those stories? Certainly, KZ's memoir revealed that she went kicking and screaming into "age appropriate" stories, and the articles about the actor who played Mike seem similar. It has got to be an enormous stab in the ego to age on television (in HD) when one became famous for their youth and beauty. Especially in daytime where there is so much emphasis on body image. It is no wonder that there is a long list of actors who went nuts because of that reason. @Mitch I agree, I admire the guts of a writer in the early 90's to play on the fear of HIV. To be fair, given the times, there were plenty of PSA moments about how Lucy and Alan-Michael could still be "intimate" and have children. The intention was clear that they were avoiding being homophobic or transphobic; even though it wasn't a term at the time. By comparison, GH's jokey use of drag when Mac and Kevin went undercover or AW's Cass/Krystal Lake stories would seem much more inappropriate today. Also, what soap fan doesn't love a plotline that also has backstage drama attached? When I read that a plotline had so stressed out an actor that they needed to take a leave of absence; I was glued to the soap and the magazines. I still wonder how much of it was a publicity stunt versus the reality; given that we've never really heard of Frank Beaty in the past twenty-two years...