j swift

On the Classic SOD tumblr there was a whole story about Pacific Lives and the plans for the series. Has Deidre Hall ever discussed what happened? Was it shelved for Sunset Beach? I cannot remember that timeline. The bible and proposal for that show would be so fun to read. I wish those things were digitized and searchable.

Touche, you've found the weakness in my argument about facial recognition in the afterlife - lol. That picture is fantastic, the costumes for Jackie and Rita look so contemporary and chic. That was before my time, so please excuse my ignorance, but who is in the light blue dress next to Ed?

Given his track record it would be hard to predict if a Chris Goutman memoir would be well written, but I bet he has good stories.

I like it but, how would Rick recognize Leslie? He was a baby when she died. On the other hand, Alan's death makes me choke up just thinking about it. I guess I am not in the majority but I thought the final week was really good, not just given the circumstances. The stuff with Lilian was great and I adored Ed and Holly impulsive running off together. BTW,- years later - which finale week couple would most likely still be together: Rick & Mindy, Buzz & Lilian, or Ed & Holly? My bet is Ed & Holly never made it past Europe. Also didn't Holly have a royal title at one point after she came back from Switzerland?

Paul Cramer is the one of the oddest retcons in a soap filled with retcons. It made me feel bad for Melinda Cramer and how she was being mistreated and kept from her children. As I recall, Paul's entire existence was explained upon his entry and never re-visited or questioned. For a soap that often prided itself on telling respectful stories about mental illness, I think that having two mentally ill sisters give birth and never have a relationship with their daughters was not very progressive. I would argue that if a proposed CJ romance was squashed, it would have been the only impact that this completely useless character ever played in the plot. First, his prior relationship with Babe was never explored and it was a total red herring. Then, he forms this instant bond with nuKelly so he steals a baby for her within five months of meeting each other. An unknown extra could have piloted the helicopter, delivered and switched the babies, and then been minor plot point in the story. If you track back from the end of the story, the coincidence that Babe and Kelly were connected was not an essential detail; they could have changed infants in a number of other ways. A triple-baby-switch-crossover is enough, his ties to Dorian and her family were completely superfluous and silly. Finally, correct me if I am wrong, but by the end he wasn't even in the Cramer orbit with any frequency, and I don't think they ever told Addie about him. Oy, don't even get started on Sudden-Aunt-Betsy. Dorian saved throughout med school to pay for Addie and then this bitch comes along? I don't think so. We met Dorian's parents in an already retconed history when she was with Mel, we didn't need a re-visiting to the convoluted Cramer family tree. For all of the talk of "Cramer Women", Dorian, Addie, and Melinda together had five secret children (Cassie, Adrianna, Kelly, Paul, and Blair) that they never raised and that's a weird family detail.

Looking back, Katherine's enabling of Phillip's anger toward Jill was inappropriate. First, she houses the boy and allows him to stay away from his mother; when Katherine had no claim to Phillip beyond the fact that he shared a first name with her ex-husband. Then, given her own history of alcoholism and recovery, she continued to enable a rift while recognizing that Phillip had a drinking problem.

I just read a recap from 2001 about Donna Love agreeing to be a nanny for Vicky's twins. Sigh..... Not only is Donna one of the worst choices as a nanny in Bay City, but in what universe would Donna Love Hutchins Hudson allow herself to be anyone's household staff?

Its interesting that you bring up Holly and Roger because my earlier comment about preferring Bert not having to forgive Bill also goes for Roger. I get that they needed to address the history. However, I was reading the 1990 recap when they are set up in the Caribbean by Alexandra (who is jealous of a woman and her rapist) and Roger tearfully apologizes. Roger then spends the rest of the 90's either being a charming cad, a scheming cad, or seething with anger. Holly learns nothing, gets scammed by Daniel, goes nuts, and finds love at the very end. I hate it in retrospect. I hate that Holly, who seemed liberated, still was reactive to whatever Roger does, rather than having her own strength. I hate that Blake still admires Roger rather than Holly. I hate that Roger gets one hot lady after another and Holly gets the leftovers from every b-story hero. I wish she hadn't forgiven him and made him uncomfortable in every room she entered for the rest of the character's life.

A fine example of why I am endlessly entertained by this board. I was thinking about characters who came on with a bang, but were an instant bust because of behind the scenes shenanigans. Tangie was the first example to spring to mind. I knew that the writers changed but I had forgotten all of this detail. We are lucky to have this resource to keep these references fresh, and thanks to anyone who can recall the information so succinctly and with such humor. The whole convoluted backstory with Roger was odd with details of her being sold to him at 15. Then, there was an almost immediate backtracking so that Roger was less of a perv. Also, for two years her motivations were never clarified; was she a con or a good guy? From her intro she works as a prototype for future European Dinah. But also, a great example that it takes a village to screw up a character; no single writer, actor, or producer is to blame in this situation.

Does anyone recall the reason given why Mac didn't attend Iris's wedding(s) in Texas?

Its instructive to think that at the end of series Reva was 8 years younger than Bert was when she died. Yet, Bert was written like an old lady from the early 70's onward. Perhaps one of the variables that we miss when critiquing the arc/aging of a character is how much the actor's vanity prevents the telling of those stories? Certainly, KZ's memoir revealed that she went kicking and screaming into "age appropriate" stories, and the articles about the actor who played Mike seem similar. It has got to be an enormous stab in the ego to age on television (in HD) when one became famous for their youth and beauty. Especially in daytime where there is so much emphasis on body image. It is no wonder that there is a long list of actors who went nuts because of that reason. @Mitch I agree, I admire the guts of a writer in the early 90's to play on the fear of HIV. To be fair, given the times, there were plenty of PSA moments about how Lucy and Alan-Michael could still be "intimate" and have children. The intention was clear that they were avoiding being homophobic or transphobic; even though it wasn't a term at the time. By comparison, GH's jokey use of drag when Mac and Kevin went undercover or AW's Cass/Krystal Lake stories would seem much more inappropriate today. Also, what soap fan doesn't love a plotline that also has backstage drama attached? When I read that a plotline had so stressed out an actor that they needed to take a leave of absence; I was glued to the soap and the magazines. I still wonder how much of it was a publicity stunt versus the reality; given that we've never really heard of Frank Beaty in the past twenty-two years...

There is a type of male hysteria acting that seems to be preferred by certain writing and producing teams. I liked Fletch because of his romantic appeal. While, I admired that the arc of the character, I agree that the execution left something to be desired. Buzz and Fletch were constantly crying and screaming. My mental image of both characters is just mouth agape, yelling nonsense, and trying to be Stanley Kowalski. The biggest fault that I had with them both from a plot perspective is that strong women like Harley, Alex, and Claire were always seeking their approval; as if Buzz or Fletch was a paragon of virtue. I never understood why Jenna would allow herself to be judged by Buzz when he abandoned his kids. Also, I adored edginess of Brent/Marion.

I think that the Reva era was successful because it felt like an evolution within a known environment. Reva went to Ceder's Hospital and all of the other landmarks in town. She also faced the same broader issues of living in Springfield as Trish, Elizabeth or Jackie a decade earlier. Trying to maintain a relationships with men who have deep societal roots, the consequences of wanting too much, the pain of seeing your true love stay in a relationship out of obligation, the gossiping of student nurses, etc.. Furthermore, I would argue that the killing off of Bill allowed Bert to remain a martyr. If Bill had stuck around or sobered up there would have been an inevitable effort to try to get Bert to forgive him and maybe even a late in life romance. However, that would really undermine all of the work that Bert had done in raising her sons. I feel that making a story about Bill's redemption negates Bert's agency. I get the storyline possibilities but, I don't think that they would be worth the price of Bert's reputation. I don't think the later Bert and Josh scenes after her amputation would have the same impact if Bert had agreed to forgive and forget Bill. @vetsoapfan I agree with not liking the Brandon Spaulding Barbados reveal. However, I have a few detail questions. I read that Alan came to Springfield in the 70's from Chicago, so when did we see Brandon Spaulding die on screen before Barbados? Also, Alan took over Spaulding years earlier and made it into an international company, so why did any of Brandon's other heirs, legitimate or not, deserve a part of the company? Finally, from the realm of fan fic, I would argue that Dr Sara Mcintyre could have still played an essential role if they hadn't written in that she divorced Adam Thorpe when he returned in the early 90's. She was Roger's step-mother at a time when they tried to expand Roger's family with Hart. Imagine Dr. Sara as the anti-Alexandra; less haughty more hippy. She could have judged Roger's ethics and supported Blake's sexual drive. Dr. Sara had a lot going for her.

Why were all of the RHONY women on WWHL twice this season except Bethanny? Ramona is notoriously not a great WWHL guest, she was on twice this season, but not B. At the reunion, all of the women are so reactive to Bethanny that they allow her to change the course of the conversation. Suddenly her rudeness toward Dorinda became about Carole's blog, and when she backtracked on her silly reasons for not attending Ramona's party, it suddenly became about Sonja's business. Her line about Carole's blog not being useful didn't even make sense. She clearly had it in her pocket, but her delivery was awful. She is clearly wrong about issues of perception if the entire cast disagrees with her interpretation, but they get so caught up in emotion that nobody stops to make that point. Bethanny's boyfriend's death and Lu's release from rehab have really dated this material.

True, but at time when the soap press was filed with complaints about Reva taking over the show, it may not have been a respectful move to recycle that name for the character of her mother. Also, while I demur to your Edmond Winslow/Ed Bauer point, it did lead to the clumsy writing of everyone saying their full names, if they were in the same script; which was rare. Also, one would hardly refer to either Edmond Winslow or Michael the Clone Doctor as well written characters created by people who valued the cannon of a long running show. I think there was always going to be a tension for such a long running show as to how much to respect history versus how much to allow new writers to create contemporary stories with new characters and families. For example, Mike could have had twelve kids, but I doubt any of them would have added to the diversity of the show in later years; so there has to be some balance between nostalgia and progress.

I just chuckled to think about the shift of GL from the 70's to the 80's because while there were no other Mikes, only 4 years after the departure of Dr. Sara Mcintyre we got Sarah Shayne. Once a new set of writers repeats a first name for their new character as a heritage character, I believe, it indicates a lack of concern about the cannon of that story. Also, although every fan likes to indulge in a little fantasy fiction, I don't think it is a valid criticism to suggest a writer who did not imagine the same possibility, out of an infinite number of possibilities, lacks creativity.

I watching the Fletcher Reid character bio on YouTube and it reminded me of what a perfect male soap actor Jay Hammer was. He easily matured from speedo-wearing hunk to avuncular B-story hero. His acting may have been not ready for primetime (i.e. The Jeffersons) but he was a ball of charm on soaps. It goes without saying that we don't allow female characters to age in this way. For example, with all of this talk of Melinda Sue, I was thinking that a woman like Alexandra Spaulding didn't come out of the womb as a diva, she developed, While it would have been interesting to see Mindy go from scheming teen to mid-20's damsel-in-distress to 50's aristocrat; we rarely see women evolve. Fletch evolved (I'm guessing) because male actors are allowed to age on screen. Jay Hammer, David Forsyth, and Robert Newman are all excellent examples of the male actors who were very hunky in their youths and aged respectfully. Perhaps, when we talk about other "legacy characters" we should look at their potential to age well? Many of those action hero type characters began to look silly when their overly dyed hair and leisure suits were in scenes with younger men.

To me Nurse Kinnecott was the aural equivalent of a finger wag. Every time I heard that name I would just think of an image of a woman wagging her finger in disgust. What was the commercial that the actress who played Mary was on for years? I seem to recall her Dorothy-Hammel-hairdo selling something.

I think we all agree that it was the tone not the location that was the problem with The Wheeler Experiment. They could have been strolling through the most luxurious cites in New Jersey, but the focus on monotheistic values and punishing aspirational characters put me off after one viewing. Oddly, Alan's one redeeming quality is that he never brought the issue of biology into his relationship with Phillip. He fought harder for custody of Phillip than for Alan-Michael, then he shot Roger, and went to prison, in order to protect Phillip. Alan-Michael had a problem with the fact was Alan wasn't Phillip's biological son, but to his credit, Alan never made it a concern.

BTW re:Phillip's baby switch, I know many have suggested that Gus should have been Rita's child, but imagine if he was Elizabeth's kid that got switched for Phillip...

We've discussed The Republic of Eden as a low point, but a review of the conning of Raven to get her out of town when real-Sky returns is very clumsy. EON had a history of short term mysteries, but there was usually an interesting transition between stories. Margo's murder thru to the Clown Puppet Murders is a great example of two short term arcs that allowed for long term characters to be involved in the throughline between the stories. Also, as evidence of the entertainment value of EON at the time, the mysteries were a background for romance. However, this misguided effort to keep the theater open is just oddly violent and unnecessary. Gavin and Jody are involved in the periphery, and there is a lot of attempts to justify why they are being so mean to Raven; who had done little to justify her punishment. By comparison, Raven's kidnapping near the end of the series, during the actress's maternity leave, was so much more artful.

I wholeheartedly endorse these views. It worked because it was a story about the parents. Today the whole story would be told from Phillip's POV, but that was the least interesting part. I'm guessing there were some influences from OLTL's long running Jenny Woleck baby switch story; it is as if there was a competition to see which soap secret could be kept the longest. I believe as long as the audience knows a soap secret it works, its when a secret is held for months, and then explained with long exposition scenes, that do nothing to intrigue me.

Agreed, I like that it is aspirational without being flashy. They all have careers, dinner parties, and nice homes, without being princes, or super villains. It seems like it is always trying to be a heightened reflection of the culture at the time. Even the discussions of family planning seem so much more evolved that the baby crazy women portrayed on soaps today. Jackie isn't trying to ensnare Alan in order to mother Phillip, she is pragmatic that Phillip was close to his father and marrying him was a good way to join the family; also Alan was unusually magnetic when he wanted to turn on his charm. Jackie and Justin were so groovy it is hard to believe what a wet sock Samantha turned out to be, but her casting was an excellent use of history given the SORAS-ing of Alan-Michael.

The backstory is that Justin dated Sara while they were in med school, but then he left her for Jackie, whose family was well connected. Justin & Jackie met Alan & Elizabeth in Europe when both women were pregnant and had the same doctor (who later becomes a part of the story, even through Diane Ballard's murder). Justin and Jackie came to Springfield (many Europeans chose Springfield for the first place they settled in the 70's) when Justin worked at Ceder's. Then Alan and Elizabeth come to town. Justin and Jackie split first, then the couples change partners because Elizabeth really likes Mike but Phillip doesn't like him so she settles for Justin. I think the sequence of people knowing about Phillip's parentage/switching is Alan (because he set it up in the first place), then Justin (he treated Phillip's hysterical heart problems), then Jackie, and finally Elizabeth. Spoiler alert: Jackie &Justin reunite then she dies in plane crash, Elizabeth gets institutionalized, like all 1970's women who were too liberated, at his high school prom Phillip finds out from Beth's abusive father Bradley that he is adopted, Alan and Justin confirm it, then Justin leaves town. So, they got seven years of stories out of Phillip's switch and the resulting butterfly effects; and then never mentioned it again....

I wonder if Ms. Argento's and Ms. McGowen's respective skeletons in their closets doesn't solidify their cases against Weinstein? It is reasonable that both women were reluctant to come forward if that they feared that their past errors in judgement would invalidate their current claims. In fact, this may have been why the fees negotiated for their silence were relatively low. However, their willingness to tell their stories regardless of the consequences of being humiliated in public by their tormentor, who has had far more access to press and the means to investigate their backgrounds, makes their stories far more compelling to me now. And now that their secrets have been revealed they have nothing to loose by telling the truth about Weinstein.