5 minutes ago, kalbir said:

. I wonder if adding action/adventure elements was Bill Bell's own choice or if it was CBS mandated to compete with General Hospital and Days.

Outside of forcing him to go to an hour instead of staying at a half hour, which was his preference, CBS didn’t force much onto him. I just think it was the times.

He once said Monty put together a great show and that they had smartly capitalized on the two special performers, later clarifying that was Geary/Francis as Luke and Laura. I wish I could find that joint interview he did with Labine again, it’s fascinating for many reasons.

But as you said, they were tame in comparison. Y&R does a lot of wild things in the 80’s!

9 hours ago, titan1978 said:

He once said Monty put together a great show and that they had smartly capitalized on the two special performers, later clarifying that was Geary/Francis as Luke and Laura. I wish I could find that joint interview he did with Labine again, it’s fascinating for many reasons.

But as you said, they were tame in comparison. Y&R does a lot of wild things in the 80’s!

It's the interview that we (some of us) discussed here I take it? Unfortunately serial scoop (the site it was at) seems to be gone. Grrr now I wanna read it. https://boards.soapoperanetwork.com/topic/51301-serial-scoop-soap-opera-history-bill-bell-claire-labine-on-writing-daytime-serials-1997/

10 hours ago, titan1978 said:

The example of early Palmer Cortlandt is a perfect example for AMC!

I just think it either suited the nature of the show or it didn’t to tell supernatural/gothic, or action adventure stuff. I don’t think the science fiction or GH style action stories ever really fit that well at AMC. Something like the classic who killed Will storyline worked because everyone in town had a connection, and that fit the small town feel of Pine Valley society. While I enjoyed Proteus, and was a relatively new fan having started watching when Kendall arrived, even then I felt this was not a great fit for AMC, and always questioned ABC having Anna Devane but not at GH.

I am not saying any story cannot be entertaining, because it can be. OLTL dabbled in the outrageous multiple times. But when Malone had his first run, the focus on Victor Lord looming over everything, Dorian and Viki’s history, and the grittiness of telling stories like Billy Douglas, or Marty/Todd, it’s like he woke up the spirit of the show back to what it was supposed to be. The gritty show Agnes Nixon created that was rooted in class, society differences, and trauma. It was never supposed to be GH-lite. I think the same thing happened at GL under Curlee. It was no longer centered around one major character, it was always supposed to be an ensemble with a special emphasis on the normality of human experiences and the safety of the idea of the Bauer home, even if the family itself was not immune to turmoil and mistakes.

We completely agree. OLTL of course was at its highest consistent ratings during the Rauch era (until the last year or two when it seemed like everyone had had enough and they tumbled) but I discovered it in the Malone/Gottlieb era and I think it was a pretty brilliant continuation/modernization of Nixon's original setup.

Proteus was probably really around the time where I think AMC really had lost a lot of its identity even if it returned in chunks (when McTavish returned at first it was welcome because it at least felt recognizably like AMC again.) Anna was interesting--I liked having her on the show but whenver they brought up her spy past (anyone remember dog boy?) it didn't fit--part of the issue there was they brought on Alex originally, Anna's never mentioned before twin sister and I think they realized that Hughes, as great as she is, wasn't good at playing twins so they just decided to keep Anna instead...

AMC has long had a tradition of murder mysteries and Who Killed Will fit right in with those--but when they brought on the Satin Killer or whatever (during the later half of McTavish's last run) it fit in soo poorly. By that point every soap seemed to have had a serial killer storyline, but I was hoping AMC would resist...

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

It's the interview that we (some of us) discussed here I take it? Unfortunately serial scoop (the site it was at) seems to be gone. Grrr now I wanna read it. https://boards.soapoperanetwork.com/topic/51301-serial-scoop-soap-opera-history-bill-bell-claire-labine-on-writing-daytime-serials-1997/

Pretty sure that was the one! Going through that thread the comments about Labine really overshadow anything Bill Bell had to say lol! And he dropped some interesting stuff in that interview about how he does what he wants, and by virtue of staying number 1 CBS/Sony doesn’t interfere. They did with Kay Alden though.

The quality of Saturday Night Live has always had its ups and downs, and yet I know the second Lorne Michaels leaves that show will essentially cease to exist. There are so many expensive, intricate parts of producing each sketch that he has always protected and nurtured, and he has a level of power that just doesn’t exist. He also knows how to engage in network politics to protect the overall show. When they hit 50 last year, a lot of the online commentary was he will finally step aside and somebody like Tina Fey will take over, or Seth. I would sometimes comment that even if it stayed successful the second he was gone the network will mess with it in ways they never did before. Y&R never dropped out of number 1, held on by a significant margin under Kay Alden, and she was not given any of the grace they gave Bell. And there were about two to three full years before they started publicly counting down to his announced retirement where the show was pretty bad. And network tv wasn’t dead yet, so it took them like 6 years to pretty much dismantle the show, and it’s never recovered.

That was fascinating to revisit. So many people that still post, including myself, had similar ideas then and takes that have stayed the same. Also interesting to see names I haven’t seen in a long time. Makes you wonder what happened to some of those posters. I believe at least one of them was banned!

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by titan1978

13 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

Anna's never mentioned before twin sister and I think they realized that Hughes, as great as she is, wasn't good at playing twins so they just decided to keep Anna instead

I remember Hughes herself has said it was not her strong suit, she wanted to play Anna only once that was introduced. I think I even recall her saying it was really hard because she saw the best do it with David as Adam/Stuart, and all she felt separated her characters was the hair.

15 minutes ago, EricMontreal22 said:

We completely agree. OLTL of course was at its highest consistent ratings during the Rauch era (until the last year or two when it seemed like everyone had had enough and they tumbled)

I think Rauch made a couple of great decisions. The women were much more the central characters driving everything on his OLTL, nearly every big story was centered on their point of view and not the men. Refocusing the show around Victoria Lord as THE LEAD was smart for that era, as was using AE’s Tina as a foil for Viki. OLTL, with characters like Tina and Gabrielle, and an often overwrought Viki leaned into heavy melodrama, and it worked for many years. But I don’t know if his show takes flight like that without Andrea Evans.

I also prefer the Malone era though.

22 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

I remember Hughes herself has said it was not her strong suit, she wanted to play Anna only once that was introduced. I think I even recall her saying it was really hard because she saw the best do it with David as Adam/Stuart, and all she felt separated her characters was the hair.

I think Rauch made a couple of great decisions. The women were much more the central characters driving everything on his OLTL, nearly every big story was centered on their point of view and not the men. Refocusing the show around Victoria Lord as THE LEAD was smart for that era, as was using AE’s Tina as a foil for Viki. OLTL, with characters like Tina and Gabrielle, and an often overwrought Viki leaned into heavy melodrama, and it worked for many years. But I don’t know if his show takes flight like that without Andrea Evans.

I also prefer the Malone era though.

Ha I love that Hughes owned up to that--because it was 100% true. I had hooked my mom on AMC by this point, but she worked out of the country for a bit over a year and it was during the time Alex was written off and Anna took over full time and I tried explaining it all to her, but she just insisted it was the same character (she had no knowledge of Anna from GH or anything, of course.)

You're right about Rauch's positives. And his instincts proved right ratings wise (it always interested me how with AW he seemed to want to create the most literate/theatrical soap, and then for OLTL he went high camp, but again this was in the 1980s/Dynasty era.) Honestly, I haven't watched enough of that era to probably fairly comment but have watched dozens and dozens of episodes over the years... I think the secret ingredient was HW Peggy O'Shea. From what I can tell, when Rauch took over, the Corringtons had recently been hired as HWs. He ousted them pretty quickly and by December 1984 Sam Hall and Peggy O'Shea returned as HWs. Sam Hall was out by June 85 (I can't remember if he discussed this in his last long interview and if he left or was fired) and until June 1987 O'Shea wrote solo, and the soap, despite all the ways it had strayed from its original target, was pretty great. This seems to be the Rauch period everyone loves. I know nothing about O'Shea (who died at 91 in 2014--too bad we don't have an interview,) except that she headed Capitol briefly between her OLTL stints and her writing goes back to the original primetime Peyton Place and Alfred Hitchcok Presents. I'm gonna guess that she just retired in '87--she was 65 or so. Then S. Michael Schnessel was promoted to HW and it was he and Rauch who seemed to really drive into the camp/craziness. He lasted until mid 1990 but the ratings were already slipping and whether he quit or what (there's zero info on him, but another writer told me he was very sick, and probably soon passed away, from complications to HIV) but Rauch seemed completely lost with Laiman and Carlson as to how to regroup the soap for the 1980s (wasn't this when they had a rap storyline, etc?) It's interesting to me that ABC Daytime were so quick to see the writing on the wall and to go out on a limb and hire Gottlieb. ABC Daytime was still so important to the network I guess since not too long after they would have let a show just run on fumes for years before trying to do anything to turn it around (although Gottlieb's ratings never caused OLTL to be near the top again, the show did become, of course, deservedly a highly respected show.)

Apropos of that, here's my fave soap critic, Christopher Schemering in 1988 (so shortly after O'Shea left) reviewing OLTL (he mentions ripping off Raiders of the Lost Ark but little did Chris know that Eterna was still on the horizon...)

ONE LIFE TO LIVE: Innovation or Mere Irritation?

By Christopher Schemering

There's an old adage that goes like this: "If it ain't broke don't fix it." After so many seasons of splendid drama, ONE LIFE TO LIVE has made a 180-degree turnabout in the last year and a half--from terrific melodrama to the most ludicrous, calculated attempts at "breaking out of the genre" with non-stop escapist entertainment that often falls right on its backside. The attitude is, if the movies can produce a Back to the Future or a Raiders of the Lost Ark, why can't soap operas? Fair enough question. But those were good movies. OLTL, as of late, has been badly conceived, poorly executed television.

Let's back up a little. Soap Opera Digest's feature editor, Robert Rorke, recently wrote an excellent article on ONE LIFE TO LIVE's twentieth anniversary (7/26), clearly demonstrating the show's uniqueness...the risk-taking that had us kids (myself included) running home from school in order to revel in the wonderful world of Llanview, Pennsylvania. (Confession: if this review seems unduly harsh, OLTL was the first serial I watched from the premiere episode, through all its ups and downs. So I, like thousands of others, tend to take it very personally when the show has gone off the deep end). There have been so many powerful stories about double lives that were so befitting the show's theme--Carla Gray's "passing" as white; Viki/Niki's split-personality; Marco Dane's taking over his dead brother's personality; and Karen Wolek's schizophrenic struggle to break out of cycle of self-hatred -- that these "Johnny-come-lately" stories about Asa posing for years as "Jeb Stuart" (how many wives can this old coot handle?), an 1888 plot where nearly everybody had a double, and the faux Bo story, was sheer overkill. Even DARK SHADOWS moved from past to present with greater ease than OLTL. That "spook" opera didn't take itself too seriously.

After a shaky start, new producer Paul Rauch, who guided ANOTHER WORLD through its Golden Age in the seventies, joined forces with head writer Peggy O'Shea in early 1985, developing a story about the memory of the show's patriarch, Victor Lord, and how his hand still guided the fates of the people of Llanview. When Viki's spoiled young ward, Tina Clayton, claimed to be the illegitimate daughter of Victor, Viki began to break down, eventually reverting to the split-personality of fifteen years before. Erika Slezak was absolutely brilliant as the Viki/Niki personalities and deservedly nabbed her second Emmy for her performance. The show was really hopping.

The story also pushed the Buchanan family, Tina, and Dorian (the magnificent Robin Strasser) into the forefront of the drama. (Although, afterward, Dorian was shoved so far into the background, it was no wonder she got into her high heels and fled to Mendorra). The Vienna location storyline was excellent, proving that OLTL could mix high adventure, suspense, and romance with exciting results. Tina's machinations with Cord and his mother, Maria, the Burrito Barracuda (BarBara Luna's campy performance was a hoot), proved to be witty and entertaining drama. And with the renewed emphasis on Viki--the kidnapping of baby Jessica, an eight-year memory loss, and a heartbreaking custody fight--no wonder Peggy O'Shea and her team won the 1986-1987 Emmy for Outstanding Writing.

Then, the bottom fell out. Rauch and new head writer S. Michael Schnessel felt the need to "boldly go where no man has gone before"--and did. It started out fun enough with Viki's two-week "Out of Body" experience in heaven. Ascending into the great beyond (with sets rivaling those in a Steven Spielberg movie), Viki mumbled to herself, "I've got a feeling we're no longer in Kansas." And seeing all those wonderful actors, whose characters had died over the past two decades, reprising their roles, had longtime viewers of the show in--forgive me--heaven. There was also a terrific confrontation with Viki's alter-ego, Niki, and a lovely dance between Viki and her late husband, Joe Riley, to the strains of Nat King Cole's "Stardust."

The show was still clicking and it wasn't so bizarre that we didn't lose the beat. But then, suddenly, OLTL went haywire. At low points on other soaps, we've had "phantom fetus" (Lisa on ATWT) and a "satanic fetus" (Lesley on GH), but we've never had a "fetus-over-the-falls" before. It was preposterous enough that Tina survived her spill over the Iquazu Falls--without even the benefit of a barrel--but the baby was also delivered without a hitch in the South American jungle. After much unfunny (and rather cruel) farce with Gabrielle (Fiona Hutchison), Max (James DePaiva), Kate (Marcia Cross), and Cord (John Loprieno), Tina was off on her "Roman Holiday" in search of "Milagro," her miracle baby. The sight of "Sister Christina" (Tina disguised as a nun) hobknobbing with Holy Sisters with bad Italian accents--a modern-day version of The Hunchback of Notre Dame--and cartoon villains, was just plain ludicrous. And it also canceled out some of the lovely performances Andrea Evans had given in the past, such as handing baby Al over to Gabrielle with equal doses selfishness and nobility.

ONE LIFE TO LIVE hit bottom with the dismissal of the Sanders family (especially after that erotic tango between Kate and Cord in Buenos Aires, a stunning directorial tour de force); the murder of the fascinating Lee Halpern (Janet Zarish in a smashing performance), who was dramatic dynamite with Lee Patterson, and the circus-like trial which followed. Soap veteran Mary Stuart (ex-Jo, SEARCH FOR TOMORROW), who played the crooked judge, should be sentenced to watch Judge Wapner for six months before another soap stint. Afterward, there were almost daily doses of latex masks, mad doctors, poisonings, pillow-smotherings, and road-runner henchmen. Hey, lighten up, folks. There hasn't been a laugh for months.

But with Clint Buchanan being transported to the Wild West of 1888, the show truly hit its lowest point. The music, the special antique credits, costuming, and sets were exquisite--but the story execution was an embarassment. The feuds; Clint pontificating on the scientific glories of the future; white slavery; ridiculous villains; and Viki stopping the wedding of her husband to her great-grandmother were bad enough. But when 1888's Blaize blew into 1988 with the resident wacko Melinda (Sharon Gabet) at her side, it was truly stupefying. When Blaize saw a television set for the first time and screamed....what was she watching, ONE LIFE TO LIVE? People at home couldn't get up and change channels--they were probably stoned on stupidity.

It's time for OLTL too calm down. It was an experiment which failed--and on its own terms, too. Meanwhile, wonderful actors like Erika Slezak, Clint Ritchie, Robert S. Woods, Sharon Gabet, James DePaiva, Andrea Evans, and John Loprieno are being wasted in a sea of implausibilities. And when veteran talents like Michael Storm (Larry), Marilyn Chris (Wanda), and Antony Ponzini (Charlie) are only lucky enough to pop up on the screen once a week, something is terribly wrong.

When there is no variety in the storytelling--and no plots which perpetuate future story and character development--it gets old, real fast. There are just so many "flights of fancy" one can take before there's a fatal crash.

Edited 7 hours ago7 hr by EricMontreal22

1 hour ago, EricMontreal22 said:

OLTL of course was at its highest consistent ratings during the Rauch era (until the last year or two when it seemed like everyone had had enough and they tumbled)

1 hour ago, titan1978 said:

But I don’t know if his show takes flight like that without Andrea Evans.

We saw in the ratings threads that One Life to Live tanked from when they lost 3rd to Y&R in 1984 until Andrea Evans returned in 1985, and they tanked again in the aftermath of Andrea Evans departure in 1990.

1 hour ago, titan1978 said:

Y&R never dropped out of number 1, held on by a significant margin under Kay Alden, and she was not given any of the grace they gave Bell. And there were about two to three full years before they started publicly counting down to his announced retirement where the show was pretty bad. And network tv wasn’t dead yet, so it took them like 6 years to pretty much dismantle the show, and it’s never recovered.

Y&R goes off-track from second half of 1994 to first half of 1997. That overlaps with the aftermath of OJ and the huge rise of time slot rival Reilly Days. Y&R rebounds second half of 1997 and Bill Bell's last year 1998 was probably the last year Y&R was truly excellent. Y&R starts tanking 1999 and John Abbott death in 2006 was the end of Y&R as we knew it.

Thanks @EricMontreal22 I remember Schemering writing much of this in his Encyclopedia but it was published before some of his further thoughts on the 1888/1988 story. I do think the show improves again for some of 1989 but even then there are very rough patches (like psycho rapist Austin Buchanan).

@titan1978 I have very mixed feelings on Lorne and SNL (I agree the show will go through a lot of changes if he goes - although at this point the show feels so lethargic and overstuffed that barring massive changes I don't think it will last much longer with or without him) but it's good to read opinions on the show that aren't from people who are either delusional, cheery stans, or people who just talk about how they have hated it for decades.

Edited 7 hours ago7 hr by DRW50

3 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I think the secret ingredient was HW Peggy O'Shea.

I agree. O'Shea, Sam Hall and Gordon Russell all knew how to write stuff that was off-beat or risky, but not so risky that it would have alienated the more conservative viewers, or so dumb that it would've insulted the average viewer's intelligence.

22 minutes ago, Khan said:

I agree. O'Shea, Sam Hall and Gordon Russell all knew how to write stuff that was off-beat or risky, but not so risky that it would have alienated the more conservative viewers, or so dumb that it would've insulted the average viewer's intelligence.

Right! Exactly--looking at some of my old saved files it sounds like O'Shea (who was retirement age) did leave over a disagreement with Rauch.

9 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

It's the interview that we (some of us) discussed here I take it? Unfortunately serial scoop (the site it was at) seems to be gone. Grrr now I wanna read it. https://boards.soapoperanetwork.com/topic/51301-serial-scoop-soap-opera-history-bill-bell-claire-labine-on-writing-daytime-serials-1997/

The interview is available on the Internet Archive:
SOAP OPERA HISTORY: Bill Bell & Claire Labine on Writing Daytime Serials