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Empire: Discussion Thread


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I'm not sure what this veiled snide side comment is supposed to mean to me and I don't care enough about the post in question to try and decode it. So if you are going to say something productive and contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way, from here forth please just come out say what you mean, especially when in regards to my post you quoted, otherwise there is no point.

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I was trying to be succinct, but sure thing! What I mean is that you came in here ordering us to account for this show and its characters and narrative without your having watched it yourself, and told us all about how you thought it was wildly inappropriate and detrimental to American culture at large. Now that you are watching it, you seem to spend a lot of time still telling us how bad it is and how you're sure it will fail soon enough. To which I say, Empire already has its backlash covered.

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Maybe we all know different types of viewers, but almost everyone I know (outside of the online world) is lamenting the fact that the show isn't a weekday soap with five new episodes a week. It's sure to crack 16 or 17 million viewers for the finale (dare I say 20?), and there will be an endless stream of "I can't believe we have to wait X months for it to come back!" This is why I'm such a strong advocate for a full 22-episode season. And I realize I use the term "advocate" as if anything I say will have any bearing on what's decided.

The show's shelf life is so not tied to Lucious's prognosis, IMO. "Who will he leave Empire to?" is the major storyline of the season, but they've done so much to develop all of the characters outside of that plot that if/when Lucious dies, there will be story opportunities enough to keep the ship sailing. The characters exist outside of the confines of that central plot, which isn't something that can be said about a lot of recent serialized dramas. Will the dynamics be different if Lucious goes? Absolutely! The dynamics are always different after a major character is gone, but I think the main thing we'd be losing with Lucious's death is the electric chemistry between TH and TJH.

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First off I asked people who have viewed multiple episodes how the show is addressing it's black characters as I have had problems with how other shows have marginalized and stereotyped people of color in various other television series (granted this is a personal issue for me and I can't stand to watch television series that diminish their characters in acting this way). I fail to see how that was a huge problem. You didn't like it so be it, that subject has been addressed and has been dealt with and we have moved forward from it. If you had issues with me bringing up that issue the time for that would have been 20 or so pages ago, not now. Time to move on.

Secondly, there are narrative problems and issues within this show that myself and others have noticed regarding pacing, characterization, plotting and story structure. Blinding yourself from that helps no one, least of all the show itself. Blindly yes manning everything does more harm than bringing out solid, well founded, educated and sourced critiques of ways the show can improve it's narrative. While I have been underwhelmed by the last three episodes compared to the earlier ones this season that just points out that the problems have grown with the past three airings, this is not an isolated incident. Notice how all of the critiques of the show have increased when a notable problem persists over a short period of time -- these are things that should be discussed and spoken about, not hidden underneath the rug to pacify fanbois.

As to Empire failing, I think it's obvious that this kind of growth is unsustainable a 6.0 rating is unheard of pretty much across the board. Acknowledging that very real fact is realistic thinking not "wishing Empire will fail." Anyone and everyone should pretty much see this coming in the near future. I already spoke about ways in which Empire can minimize their losses (and thus prevent a massive falling that has followed other series re: the sophomore slump), but you are too busy being butt hurt about me being "negative" and being a "hater" or whatever. That does no good to anyone in this thread. So this little hate fest here is not productive towards any kind of discussion. Please expand on how you think Empire can build on it's success for next season or what choices you think will best benefit the series in its second season (just like how I did, before the trite and reductive interruption re: stan goggles), so we can keep the conversation moving.

Luscious is the main antagonist of the series, so he is the one that spins the wheels for all of these characters more or less as things stand now. I don't think that Luscious is the be all end all of everything with Empire, but he is the central focus for now and is the character that pushes other characters to do things. Pretty much everyone in the series is reacting to him and his actions. I think a major point for Empire's second season will be can they find something bigger than Luscious that is just as or more compelling than he is, that can work just as well, and supplement that larger change or story into something that will further drive the series. For now Luscious is pretty much it, and they've put a time clock with how long the character will be on the series with his ALS diagnosis, in hindsight I don't think that was a great move considering as things are now with the renewal and being Fox's only big hit this season. Even though I hate Luscious as a character personally, I can objectively see that he is a needed character for plot purposes.

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I agree with this completely, which is why I think once he's gone, the show will have tons of story to tell. Who are these characters without Lucious? How will they interact? Will they even still exist as a family unit? What role will Cookie play in all of that? This isn't PLL, where it's like, "Okay, we know who A is. Now what?" There is huge potential for a long run long after Lucious is gone.

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Nah, I'm good with the other conversations I was having. It's difficult to care to enter into any kind of serious dialogue with you when everything you have to say about the show has always skewed towards bad since before you bothered viewing it. I can (and have) been critical without focusing on the negative to prop up your point of view. You want to do all this work to justify the attitude you had towards the show before you watched it - fine, that's your business. But it's not my problem and I'm not going to engage with it, because I feel that all that energy and prose is being expended towards something intellectually dishonest, which is finding a roundabout path to 'I was right all along.'

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I think we are mostly coming from the same point of view. I am just saying at this point the writers haven't started laying the ground work for that yet. I think that is something they should be preparing for season 2.

Yeah none of that is happening. A lot of the problems and issues that I've had while viewing the show have been echoed by other posters, so obviously my issues with the show have been the same issues found in other viewers -- which probably means even outside of my voice there is credence within them for the general audience. I've been candid with what stories have been working on the show (Cookie's introduction, Jamal's coming out), what has been under developed (Andre's entire story), and what stories have been the most meandering (All of Hakeem's). All of my arguments and issues have solid bases, I was more interested in seeing what your core issue was in regards to them, but they have yet to materialize. Outside of that I really don't care about your theory that I am being "dishonest" with how I am viewing the show, and what you believe my personal opinion about the show to be. My opinion is right here for everyone to read. If I didn't feel it, I wouldn't write it, as simple as that.

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I have addressed many of these things and my thoughts on them before, I just didn't make those posts about you. Because it had nothing to do with you at that time; we didn't all only start thinking critically about the program when you showed up. I'm not going to rehash it all for your edification, my posts are all here to view. Empire is not exactly a perfect TV show, but nonetheless I think you'll find we're all still a lot more interested in watching it than we are in talking about you and the validity of your opinions.

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Again you are not addressing any of the points that I have made in regards to my post you were so aggrieved by, and started this entire discussion. So I don't understand the purpose of this dialogue you've continued to engage in, and seemed to have made personal. If you disagree with what I have posted than say so, this grudge or whatever you have against me is pointless to central part of this thread -- Empire. So if you are just going to make snide remarks and grumble about my postings instead of entering a dialogue about them so be it, that's your issue. This isn't a fan board and your misnomer like comments against me won't change the content of what I have written, or the fact that all of my criticisms have been constructive. All of my points have been made and expressed to push the dialogue about the show further, your hypersensitivity to any perceived criticism you find unfavorable to the show however, clearly isn't and your instance that any person's criticism against the show can be wiped away with a dressed up version of "you aren't a big enough fan" is a pathetic tactic in any conversation, regardless of the content being spoken about. So if you are finished derailing this particular thread, I'd like to get back to the conversation at hand, and in the future if you disagree with my arguments please address them, instead of complaining that I am not positive enough regarding the show in your personal view. Because as I addressed above, I don't care that I don't satisfy your fan quota theory.

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One things one is alone. and suddenly the room is full of voices, or faces, or both, from “Another World”. Another moment, this one from “Days of our Lives.” It takes, as the whole addiction does, some bearing with Mickey Horton we know —though he does not —is infertile. Tom Horton , Mickey’s brother, returned several years ago from Korea, face changed, memory gone. His memory came back. About three years ago, Bill Horton, another brother, made pregnant Mickey’s wife, Laura, a psychiatrist. Tom Horton, before he went to Korea, had a ghastly wife, extremely ghastly. When his memory returned, she returned also. Dr. Horton, the father of Tom, Mickey and Bill knows—as Bill found out by accident, as Laura knows, as we have always known—that Laura’s offspring cannot be her husband Mickey’s. Mickey does not know. Last year, there occurred the following episode: Tom’s ghastly wife was at the senior Hortons’, trying to be nice. The senior Hortons of “Days of our Lives,” like the senior Randolphs and Matthewses of “Another World,” or the Tates of “Search for Tomorrow,” are technically known by soap writers as “tentpole characters.” on which the tragedies are raised. Anyway, as she set the table for dinner that evening at the senior Hortons’, Tom’s ghastly wife was singing. The elder Mrs. Horton said that she had a lovely voice, that she ought to make a professional thing of it. The ghastly wife went directly to Dr. Horton’s study and made a tape recording of her singing voice in song. Later that evening, Dr. Horton had a chat with his daughter-in-law Laura about her child, her husband’s infertility, and her brother-in-law’s fatherhood. The tape recorder was still on. Tom’s ghastly wife, trying later to recapture her own singing voice on tape, heard all the rest. It was unbearable. Months of blackmail, we all knew. It might have been a lifelong downer. I turned off for several years. The present moment—since July, I mean—as far as I can tell, is this. The tape incident seems nearly over. Mickey Horton, however, was believed by everyone. including himself, to have made pregnant a girl other than his wife. Even I knew this was impossible, unless Mickey’s medical tests had been in error—in which case he might be the father of Laura’s baby after all—or unless the writers, and Laura and her father-in-law, had forgotten the whole thing. When Mickey’s girl’s baby was born, it did turn out through blood tests, that the baby could not have been Mickey’s. Of course not. Anybody who had watched even five days two years ago knew that. Meanwhile, a friend of the Horton family, Susan, who had a terrible life, has been raped in the park, and is being treated by Laura, the psychiatrist. Well. One thing about a work of art is that it ends. One may wish to know what happens after the last page of “Pride and Prejudice.” Some writers give signs of wishing the reader to abide with a given novel; one of the century’s great prose works, after all, ends in such a way that the reader is obliged to begin again. But narrative time in art is closed. The soaps, although they have their own formal limitations (how many times, for example, a major character is required by contract to appear each week on-screen) are eternal and free. One can have a heart attack during a performance of “King Lear” or fall in love listening to “Mozart” but the quotidian, running-right-along-side-life quality of soaps means that whole audiences can grow up, marry, breed, divorce, leave a mark on history, and die while a single program is still on the air. Aristotle would not have cared for it. The soaps can, and sometimes do, adopt the conventional thriller form, which has a different sort of dialect altogether: the solvers, the classicists who demand a beginning, a middle and an end. There was a superb many-month conventional kidnapping episode on “The Doctors,” once, when a trustee of the hospital abducted a nurse, under enthralling circumstances, and the only one who gradually caught on was the nurse’s roommate, Carolee Simpson, a character who, like “Another World”s Lahoma was meant to stay jut briefly but has ever been so good that she is essential to the plot—particularly in the recent matter of Dr. Allison. There was also a young lady physical therapist who thought herself widowed in the Six Day War (her husband had been a correspondent in the Middle East) and who fell in love with the son of the chief of all the doctors. The son was in love with her. Then it turned out that an Israeli girl had been nursing a blind American. He was rude to her for ages. She was kind to him. He turned out, after months, to be the lady therapist’s thought-dead husband, and things were resolved. Such episodes do occur. But they are rare. They are too self-contained. Now the wife of the chief of all the doctors, having been kidnapped and returned some months ago, thinks she is going mad. Her paternal uncle was a schizophrenic in his time. There does not seem to be a single sense in which soap operas can be construed as an escapist form. There is unhappiness enough and time to occupy a real lifetime of afternoons. There is no release: not the scream, shudder, and return to real life that some people get from horror films; not the anxiety, violence, and satisfactory conclusion of detective, spy, or cowboy shows; certainly not the laughing chapters of fantasy home, like “Lucy,” “Bachelor Father,” or the “Mothers-in-law,” There is no escape except, either, from political realities. The allegations that the soaps avoid the topical are simply in error: Vietnam, psychosis, poverty, class, and generational problems—all are there. One thing that soap operas do not do is flinch. They simply bring things home, not as issues but as part of the manic-depressive cycle of the television set. And what they bring home is the most steady, open-ended sadness to be found outside life itself. No one can look forward to a soap unless he looks forward to the day, in which case he is not likely to be a watcher of soaps at all. Watchers resign themselves. There are seventeen soaps on television now [1972], some obviously less good than others ( a soap that fails is not simply dropped from the air; it is, for the audience’s sake, quickly wrapped up: The hero, for example is run over by a truck), and in their uncompromisingly funereal misery there is obviously some sort of key. Most sentimental or suspense forms —dog, horse, or spy stories, for instance—have a plotted curve. Things are briefly fine, then they’re down for a long time, then they rise for a brief finale. There is some reward. The soap line goes along almost straight, though inextricably tangled, down. The soaps are probably more true to the life of their own audience than they appear to be; certainly they are truer in pace, in content, and in subjects of concern than any other kind of television is. Not that there is much amnesia or that much insanity out here. Not that each woman’s secret fear, or hope, is that she is bearing the child of inappropriate member of her family. But the despair, the treachery, the being trapped in a community with people whom one hates and who mean one ill, the secrets one cannot expose—except once or twice — in the course of years when changes and revelations occur in sudden jumps: These must be the days of a lot of lives. This is not the evening’s entertainment, which one watches, presumably, with members of the family; not the shared family situation comedies, which (with the important exception of “All in the Family”) are comfortable distortions of what family life is like. Soap operas are watched in solitude. This is the daytime world of the Randolphs, the Matthewses, the Hortons, the Tates —a daily one-way encounter group, a mirror, an eavesdropping or the apparent depression of being just folks for more than twenty years. It is even entering the commercials now—the utter joylessness. There are still the cheery, inane commercials with white tornadoes and whiter wash. But there are beginning to be hopeless underdogs; unpretty, sarcastic Madge, who, as a manicurist, deals with actors who look as though they knew about life in cold-water flats. the emphasis on cold-water products. The view of life as a bitter, sad, dangerous ordeal, with a few seconds reprieve before the next long jolt to decent souls, cannot be confined to one side of the screen. Not on seventeen daytime serials. When, for millions, a credible villain is a suicide, dead, and well out of it. And, a hero is a man compelled to live his drama out, the daylight view of what life is like is far less sunny on television, anyway, than the view by night.
    • Heffa? Girl, bye? MONA!!!!!!!!!!! I'm rolling. 
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