Bill Has Done it Again!

[All My Shadows]

This is such nonsense. Everyone "makes a choice to speak a certain way at some point in life." WTF? So people just stop and think and say "Hmm, I think I'm going to speak like this from now on?" No. People speak the way they've been brought up to speak. They soak up the dialect, accent, colloquialisms, etc of their environment (regardless of race -- white people and black people speak pretty much the same here), and that's how a person's language is born. By the way, "they" is a pronoun. You must be referring to "they" used as a possessive, which I'm 100% guilty of, despite my straight A's in high school and college grammar courses, not to mention my 35 (out of a possible 36) on the English section of the ACT. Just because I know what's grammatically correct doesn't mean I'm going to alter the course of my daily language just to appease grammar snobs. The way I talk has never cost me a job or important professional advance.

[Wales2004]

One thing I do want to add is that the reaction to this speech is a good example of how American discussions that are race related (specifcially as it pertains to the color black) can only go so far. People spent more time and energy attacking Bill Cosby and cherry picked parts of his speech to attack while tip toeing around the idea of personal responsibility and knowing when and where to use slang. It's a volatile topic because people allow themselves to be governed by their emotions and would rather attack every bit of minutiae.

If even a quarter of the energy that was spent in attacking Bill Cosby and making sure the people who should not have been heard the "dirty laundry" understood that he was just a senile elitiist who didn't know a thing about the poor black people, was devoted to establishing some sort of education related networking such as basic grammar tutorials or even getting School House Rock segments on television, some progress would have been made.

It's beyond me why people vigorously defend the race system and criticize others for not being black enough or hurl insults at them. Last time I checked, there was no historical evidence that black people....especially black Americans...created racial classifications.

[All My Shadows]

Once again, sharing your nonsense.

I'm still wondering where "slang" is being addressed in this, because the phrases that Bill called out aren't "slang."

"If even a quarter of the energy blah blah blah." As if I just spent three years writing a book in response to Bill's commentary I did just spend four years becoming a certified high school teacher so that I could teach teenagers things that really matter and actually factor into their character.

[Roman]

The last time I checked, that is his opinion. Which i happen to agree with. i didn't know it was socially acceptable for our younger people to act like the sorry azz ignorant people they act like. We still can't get a fair shake at times in the USA because everyone thinks we ALL act like that. I see it every single day, and those in my generation just shake their heads. We talk of this often, and he once again put a public face on it. If people are upset with him then maybe some of them should check themselves and stop defending these 1,000 pure idiots who think it's ok to sound like a stupid azz and call any black American who talks and carries themselves well "Like at them wanna be white MF'ers".

[Wales2004]

Would you find it more acceptable if I said that some people make a choice to speak a certain way in life? Is it so hard to believe that people who have certain aspirations might find themselves having to change their accents or way of speaking in order to meet their goals?

Whether you believe or accept it, it does happen. I've listened to people with regional accents explain how they wanted to get news anchor jobs and were told they could not with their particular accents....so they made the choice to suppress or change their accents.

And yes, I did mean the possessive. I don't like hearing people say "they defense won them the game."

I wasn't taliking about you so no need to take it personally. Dyson wrote two books about Bill Cosby's speech. Others had plenty to say in articles, etc.

FYI, what is posted above is not his entire speech. It's an excerpt and that's why you see no reference to slang in that excerpt.

I don't engage in personal attacks. I don't find it necessary as I can respect opinions even if I disagree with them and find them outlandish without being rude about it. I have no reason to attack you at all. I don't know you and none of anything I posted in this thread is about you....it's generalizations. I am sorry that you cannot see that. I'm glad you are a smart person but even though I can be quite silly, I don't see why you feel the need to mimize me in order to demonstrate your superior level of intelligence. I'm truly sorry about that.

[Roman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gODZzSOelss

[alphanguy74]

People do change their ways of speaking and accents, Rick Springfield, for instance does not talk with an aussie accent anymore. I'd like to know what happened to it, myself! But I totally agree with Roman's post. You may speak a certain way because of your upbringing, but it doesn't mean you have to speak in that way in all situations, and demand respect for doing it. I know that when I say words like "taters", it's not proper english... so I know when to use it, and when not to. Like it or not, you are judged on what you say. And many may say it's never held them back... not held them back TO THEIR KNOWLEDGE. Or sometimes a person can be good enough at their jobs to override the bad grammar, but like anything else, it plays a part in how people perceive you.

[Wales2004]

I haven't finished watching that clip Roman but you know what they're missing?

THE Ohio State and THE U

[All My Shadows]

It's understandable why a news anchor would want to change their voice/language. It's an integral part of their job, especially if it's higher than the regional level. But if, say, a doctor used bad grammar? I wouldn't care. The way he speaks has nothing to do with the work he's gonna do on my body, nor did it have anything to do with the education he pursued to become a doctor. IMO, it simply does not matter, and I don't understand why people should feel lesser because they don't buy into the "keeping up appearances" notion. It's gotten to the point where being "professional" means being totally fake and insincere. Yes, people judge others by such things, but why are we striving to preserve such prejudices? Shouldn't we have learned by now that you can't judge a book by it's cover? I've seen it enough with my own eyes that a person can do and say all the appropriate things but be completely unqualified for whatever it is they've set out for.

And, remember, language is a living, breathing thing. There are plenty of words and phrases that we don't think twice about using now that were unheard of in the past. It's the nature of language.

[Wales2004]

Rick Springfield probably just Americanized. Accents are kind of interesting. I know people from the same neighborhood who speak differently from each other and people from the same families. It's probably more noticeable with immigrant families where the parents have thick accents and some of the kids sound like them and some don't. My gardener's son was born here and never lived anywhere else but you wouldn't think so listening to him. I don't care so much about accents because I can generally understand what people are saying.

I don't care if it's snobbish or whatever anyone wants to label me, I think it's sad when kids that are born and raised here struggle with English more than immigrant children who come and have to be taught the language. Character counts but a part of character, imo, is taking the time to do those things which help you or your family. Life isn't fair and there are a lot of rules that none of us want imposed on us. I think all education should be free for those who want it, but it isn't. That's life. In order to compete, certain things are important and until that changes.....

Anyway, thanks for the interaction. It's nice to have cordial exchanges. Be well.

[VirginiaHamilton]

Dr. Cosby surely didn't frame it as his "opinion" then (or now). If anything, he took pride in recycling that Talented Tenth bullshit and spouting it to the poor and misbegotten Negroes that he has so much disdain for. And yes, I said disdain because because his speeches have been filled with nothing but contempt for the people that he is administering 'straight talk' to. Dr. Cosby's ranting about folks who haven't chosen their children's names out of The BAP Handbook is proof of that.

Furthermore, the last time that I checked, Negroes acting 'socially acceptable' doesn't guarantee any successes in career or life. Plenty of folks who 'talk and carry themselves well' are right on the chow line and trying to get by day by day along with those '1000 pure idiots' as we speak. Being 'socially acceptable' doesn't mean jack when 'everyone' passes you over for a position that you are well qualified for in a company that you've clocked in more than enough hours to show them that you're not like those 'sorry azz ignorant people' for because they would never pass over one of their folks to offer it to you.

Dr. Cosby would be better off considering those facts instead of slamming someone for not naming their child Madison or Lesley.

[DRW50]

I was surprised at the part about the right or wrong name. A Different World, which he was a big part of (at least for a while), seemed to be about respecting African culture and what that entailed. I don't know if someone can get into the area of what is or isn't an acceptable name. Would he say that Zora Neale Hurston was unacceptable?

[Wales2004]

Here's what he said about the names:

With names like Shaniqua, Shaligua, Mohammed and all that crap and all of them are in jail. (When we give these kinds of names to our children, we give them the strength and inspiration in the meaning of those names. What's the point of giving them strong names if there is not parenting and values backing it up).

These are the names that Wiki has listed for his kids: Ennis Cosby, Erinn Chalene Cosby, Ensa Camille Cosby, Erika Ranee Cosby, Evin Harrah Cosby.

[VirginiaHamilton]

I can't say that I'd be surprised if he deemed Zora as an 'unacceptable' name, in spite of her revered status in women's/Black/feminist/womanist literature. Considering that the late author dealt with Cosby-esque criticism about her books during her professional career 80+ years ago, it just goes to show how tired this all is.

[SFK]

All "E's" for "Excellence", as he's said. Some folks would call that "ghetto". That said, I do agree with some of Cosby's sentiments. I'll address them more point by point a little later.

I agree that a black person whose grammar is not on point is going to get some side eye in professional situations amongst whites who speak "perfect English" more effortlessly. The thing is, education begets education, and there are generations of blacks in America who were denied educations and/or received inferior ones, who did not believe that higher education was possible, who despite the lessons in school went home to families who spoke in a regional dialect and accent. We can't ignore that and wave a magic wand and say there's a level playing field where everyone has the same proper education and had Standard American Speech drilled into their heads. It's easier said than done. It's not just a black thing, but a lower economic thing as well, but who has suffered more than blacks from low income and inferior educational opportunities in this country for hundreds of years? When you're not raised in an enviornment where you get corrected on your grammar because your elders don't even know how to correct you, or reading isn't stressed in the home, nor is college let alone grad school encouraged over "getting a good job with the county" out of high school, I mean... Of course this is not EVERY black family in America. But there are sizable pockets of population in our country who need help on a VERY deep level when it comes to these issues. Again, so much easier said than done when we talk about people who rose out of this and were determined to be more than what their life at present told them was possible. There's a lot of work to be done. Segregation ended in 1964. That's only FIFTEEN YEARS before I was born. My parents, an interracial couple, were married in 1978. Loving v. Virginia was only ELEVEN years earlier. We have racial issues in this country that are still quite young.