These shows can be more universal than you'd think. My aunt, who is about 70 years old, watches just about all the CW teen dramas, Vampire Diaries, Pretty Little Liars, etc. But even she has stopped watching most of the reality shows. I think some of them just have cycles and lately I think the cycle for a lot of reality TV has been set on drek.

Edited January 28, 201213 yr by CarlD2

We can point out its cultural value because we're more familiar with what's being depicted than you are. It doesn't make us stupid or lesser, and honestly, it says nothing about the "dumbing down of America."

I profoundly disagree with this statement. Once upon a time Reality television had merit, but as it stands now it only serves to herald the depraved, debauched and the most desperate of people. When most of reality television is comprised of drunken night outs, hostile fights in dining rooms and sexual exploits I can't see the argument that this television is in anyway bettering America or making it smarter. Ultimately the problem with reality television is that it gives a spotlight to the worst kinds of people because marketers know that people will flock to see a trainwreck continuously. People are only watching those shows because they know they will see a [!@#$%^&*] storm of idiocy. I don't necessarily think the people who watch and find enjoyment in reality television are dumb, but I do think it shows that they would rather watch someone make an idiot or spectacle of themselves and laugh at said buffoonery instead of wanting to watch something that takes a bit more effort to watch.

And history has shown that people generally don't like to see cultures other than their own on television.

I disagree with this completely. Otherwise so many shows detailing the elite upper class could not exist or period shows could never do well. That generalization doesn't really fit at all.

And believe it or not, not everyone's world is rocked by "quality" shows such as Mad Men. I've tried with Mad Men. I really have. But I recognize that it not. for. me. And so I pay it no mind.

That wasn't really my point. My point was that you could pick an entire list of scripted shows on TV and find something worth watching that would be better then reality television in terms of quality shows. Even old WB shows like Dawsons Creek, Felicity, Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Roswell have better development of story and characterization then most reality television shows out today. Hell I would say any of the CW shows have at least one interesting character on that show that you can immerse yourself in. I would say Blair from Gossip Girl is one of the most interesting characters on that entire network and she is more multi-dimensional then any of these reality television cardboard cut outs. The same thing could probably be said for any of those Disney programs.

But even she has stopped watching most of the reality shows. I think some of them just have cycles and lately I think the cycle for a lot of reality TV has been set on drek.

This is an important distinction. Reality television wasn't always this bad. When Real World first started it had a purpose which was to bring different people from all walks of life into a home and have them interact with each other and through that program we got thought provoking discussions about HIV/Aids, homosexuality, racism, rape, sexual identity, religion, eating disorders and various other social issues. Now the shows are all about drinking, sex, social climbing and fights and safe to say I don't see the value in any of that. Especially when the people involved don't have ten brain cells between them.

I profoundly disagree with this statement. Once upon a time Reality television had merit, but as it stands now it only serves to herald the depraved, debauched and the most desperate of people. When most of reality television is comprised of drunken night outs, hostile fights in dining rooms and sexual exploits I can't see the argument that this television is in anyway bettering America or making it smarter. Ultimately the problem with reality television is that it gives a spotlight to the worst kinds of people because marketers know that people will flock to see a trainwreck continuously. People are only watching those shows because they know they will see a [!@#$%^&*] storm of idiocy. I don't necessarily think the people who watch and find enjoyment in reality television are dumb, but I do think it shows that they would rather watch someone make an idiot or spectacle of themselves and laugh at said buffoonery instead of wanting to watch something that takes a bit more effort to watch.

That wasn't really my point. My point was that you could pick an entire list of scripted shows on TV and find something worth watching that would be better then reality television in terms of quality shows. Even old WB shows like Dawsons Creek, Felicity, Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Roswell have better development of story and characterization then most reality television shows out today. Hell I would say any of the CW shows have at least one interesting character on that show that you can immerse yourself in. I would say Blair from Gossip Girl is one of the most interesting characters on that entire network and she is more multi-dimensional then any of these reality television cardboard cut outs. The same thing could probably be said for any of those Disney programs.

It is not a either its smart, quality tv that is betting america or awful trash that dumbs it down. Again, I ask of you to show me a scripted series that is bettering america. that whole notion of tv shows bettering a country is. again, just dumb. I work a full time job, a part time job, go to school full time, take care of my grandmother, and manage my household so I see nothing wrong with wanting to watch some entertaining reality shows at the end of my day. I fully admit to them being mindless and fun and not much more, but to call them ALL stupid is just beyond. Lets not even get into that fact that you likely dont watch the shows you are judging and there is so much more to them an the media lets on, but you wouldnt know that. The Kardashians do well in the ratings because they have a dynamic family relationship most people can relate to, just they have much more money. The interactions between the family is what drives the show and keeps people coming back. Even Jersey Shore, a show about drunk hookups, has more relatable issues than a lot of scripted tv. Seeing Vinny deal with his depression/anxiety and leave the house, leaving his best friend confused and sort of hurt but who still understood, was very sad and very realistic.

And ITA about old WB shows, but current CW, ABC, NBC shows? No. And as for Blair, she is one of the most immature pathetic people on television, but thats not the point.

Jack, I must say, you are making me want to check out The Hills. However, I really REALLY cannot stand Spencer, Heidi to a lesser degree. I think Spencer is just vile, worse than any Kardashian, at least outwardly.

Watch it! I will post with you along the way!!

And Spencer is the worst, but Heidi is interesting to watch until season 5.

The fake "honesty" of Kim Kardashian probably bothers me most - the way viewers were essentially conned into believing this was a real wedding, when it was likely all just a scam for money. Then you have to go through the contrivances of the breakup and Kim's suffering. It's so highly orchestrated to the point where it is fiction, and is Kim so fascinating a personality that it's worth sitting through all this kabuki?

Kim is the worst.

Khloe, Kourtney, and the rest make the show.

And believe it or not, not everyone's world is rocked by "quality" shows such as Mad Men. I've tried with Mad Men. I really have. But I recognize that it not. for. me. And so I pay it no mind.

Yet you are not judging others.. shocker!

Again, I ask of you to show me a scripted series that is bettering america.

It seems as a whole the conversation has shifted from overall show quality to message and I'm fine engaging in that discussion as well. I would say if nothing else there are still primetime shows that create a dialogue and overall say something to the viewer to get them to think about issues. For instance I would say HBO's Big Love, True Blood and Stars Torchwood series were all shows that asked questions that are pertinent in even today's society. These series discussed the issues of polygamy, gay rights and health care in our society. Series like HBO's Hung and Showtime's Diary Of A Call Girl also attempt to talk about prostitution and if it's right to legalize it. Dexter is also a series which has argued about mercy killings and the idea of the death penalty. Even show's like Weeds and Nurse Jackie -- comedies are talking about dilemmas in the drug industry, addiction and legalization of marijuana. All of these issues are pretty hot button topics that are at least aiming to promote dialogue in households and getting people to feel someway about the issue for or against and I have participated in lively debates thanks to these series.

I would say every one of these series are bringing up important discussions to be had and are giving a message in general. It doesn't have to be a philosophy lesson or a political message, but there is a sense of these shows wanting to provoke a dialogue and creating interesting characters and stories to do it. That to me is enthralling and justifies their creation. You seem to hate soaps for doing their endless stories over and over again but you fail to realize most of these reality tv shows you are watching the Kardashian's, Real Housewives, Jersey Shore are even worse because they are just as repetitious and even more classless with not one tenth of the talent associated with most soaps even at their weakest.

I fully admit to them being mindless and fun and not much more, but to call them ALL stupid is just beyond.

You are contradicting yourself right here. You have already admitted the shows are mindless and serve no real purpose and only exist to vehicle the star status of the main reality host. That alone makes them pointless and invalidates them. Make no mistake all of the reality show you have mentioned thus far are insipid and useless "dramas" and I use that word loosely.

Lets not even get into that fact that you likely dont watch the shows you are judging and there is so much more to them an the media lets on, but you wouldnt know that.

You couldn't pay me to continuously watch any of the series mentioned thus far, but I have watched episodes of the aforementioned series. Real Housewives, Jersey Shore, Kardashians, John and Kate plus 8 and other foolishness by proxy of family television and I see nothing that is remotely redeemable about any of those series. Please don't presume to know what I have experience with.

The Kardashians do well in the ratings because they have a dynamic family relationship most people can relate to, just they have much more money. The interactions between the family is what drives the show and keeps people coming back.

It's a vehicle series used to catapult a once high profile dead lawyers family into the media spotlight and that's it. That is the sole justification for the series and why it exists. That's what most reality television shows are, vehicles to promote an X list celebrity into a C list one. It's no surprise that reality television is generally seen by the public as a cesspool where stars go to get their last fifteen minutes of fame (ie Favor Flav, Paula Abdul, the guy on Rock of love whatever, celebrity rehab, etc.). There is no message that the Kardashian's are trying to say. They do not promote family values, contribute extensively to charity or in anyway try to help society. They solely want to publicize their lifestyle in an effort to be famous. They are not giving a public service. They are desperate washed up hags who want publicity and notoriety.

Even Jersey Shore, a show about drunk hookups, has more relatable issues than a lot of scripted tv.

I couldn't agree less with you.

Edited January 28, 201213 yr by Skin

What a mess. Regardless I wasn't talking exclusively about soap operas. I was talking about scripted shows like Mad Men, Lost, Grey's Anatomy, House, Queer As Folk, Dexter, Weeds, Big Love, etc. which are all at least a cut or thirteen above these reality plagues in terms of production, writing, acting and story development as you so succinctly pointed out.

Nobody is arguing that reality tv is better than anything else on tv. However, it is better than a lot of shitty scripted shows, and the coversation was about reality vs soap operas. I do love all of the shows you posted tho, and they are by far " at least a cut or thirteen above" soap operas and a lot of other scripted tv shows as well.

That being said there most certainly were good soap storylines the past decade on soaps, the coming out storylines of the first gay female and male in daytime were both done quite well in the forms of Bianca (AMC) and Luke (ATWT). There most certainly have been strong actors and actresses in daytime who delivered amazing material through the characters they played. So I can't imagine what you are talking about in terms of the "acting". Especially since you are trying to talk up reality television in that same area. The "acting" in reality television is atrocious to say the least, which is why so little of their audience actually believes what is in front of them is real. In general scripted shows are better then reality television. There is a reason why so little reality stars are respected. They aren't seen as talented or even worthwhile people, hence the scorn they all regularly receive. There is a reason why actors who act in scripted shows are given more credit for their work then their reality counterparts. So in essence my reasoning is not "bullshit" as you so delicately put it. It's basic fact. I would say even Daytime actors are more respected then any of the Real Housewives or any of the Jersey Shore members. At least they have had an institution which honors their work continuously and aren't constantly spoofed on variety shows.

Bianca came out over a decade ago and Luke's story was awful, but thats beside the point. Of course soaps have has some good moments and stories the past 10 years, but as a whole on a constant level its been dreck. And I am not talking up all reality, again if you would pay attention you would see i clearly stated the hills and the kardashians and the real housewives, because the production on those shows are phenomenal. As for reality stars getting no respect, is that any different than soap opera stars? and is there a point to that? And in terms of the hills, for a good 4 seasons very few people were aware it wasnt 100% real. And soap operas/stars are not spoofed? are you for real right now? please.

There is no such thing as a well done reality television show. There is a reason why it's generally said to be "garbage" television or a guilty pleasure. It has no validity to it. You can say whatever you want to about soaps, their quality has slid down the tubes the last couple of years - that doesn't mean every once and while a soap can't tell a strong story that resonates with it's audience. Which is more then I can say for the likes of Kardashian sex tapes, Jersey Shore hook ups and Real Housewives squabbling. It's clear that people are watching these shows because they enjoy seeing train wrecks consistently. The whole reason why their shows are successful is because every one on that show is a hot mess of a person. They audience does not love these caricatures, they love having someone to laugh at and scorn.

Where do i begin here?.. First of all, you sure do like to state opinion as fact. Wow.

Soap operas and many sitcoms and other shows are thought of as garbage and guilty pleasure too. Anf there is a lot more to Jersey shore than hookups and the kardashian show than a sex tape, but how would you know because you do not watch, but instead judge the shows and the viewers. and i dont laugh at or scorn almost everybody on the shows i watch, i do like them, a lot. Sure there are exceptions, just like any show.

No one is saying that every show has to be something CNN would air. But I generally would like to watch someone that has a higher IQ then a vegetable.

Yes, actually YOU are saying that. And Your judgement is really shocking me to be honest.

It seems as a whole the conversation has shifted from overall show quality to message and I'm fine engaging in that discussion as well. I would say if nothing else there are still primetime shows that create a dialogue and overall say something to the viewer to get them to think about issues. For instance I would say HBO's Big Love, True Blood and Stars Torchwood series were all shows that asked questions that are pertinent in even today's society. These series discussed the issues of polygamy, gay rights and health care in our society. Even a show like Weeds and Nurse Jackie - comedies talks about dilemmas in the drug industry, addiction and legalization of marijunia all of these are pretty hot button topics. I would say every one of these series are bringing up important discussions to be had and are giving a message be it a political message or something else there is a sense of these shows wanting to provoke a dialogue and creating interesting characters and stories to do it. You seem to hate soaps for doing their endless stories over and over again but you fail to realize most of these reality tv shows you are watching the Kardashian's, Real Housewives, Jersey Shore are even worse because they are just as repetitious and even more classless.

Premium cable series are great. No argument. But I would never compare them to other shows because it just isnt a level playing firled. You keep going there for your arguments, using the rare good shows. We are talking in masses here, not a select few.

what is repetitious on these shows? and im sorry that i dont watch classy tv...

You are contradicting yourself right here. You have already admitted the shows are mindless and serve no real purpose and only exist to vehicle the star status of the main reality host. That alone makes them pointless and invalidates them. Make no mistake all of the reality show you have mentioned thus far are insipid and useless "dramas" and I use that word loosely.

No, i am not. I never said they were high art or educational. I have stated they are fun, entertaining series that contain a lot more than people who dont watch them realize.

You couldn't pay me to continuously watch any of the series mentioned thus far, but I have watched episodes of the aforementioned series. Real Housewives, Jersey Shore, Kardashians, John and Kate plus 8 and other foolishness by proxy of family television and I see nothing that is remotely redeemable about any of those series. Please don't presume to know what I have experience with.

watching random episodes is not the same, because you have no idea of the situation or ongoing story. this goes for nearly any tv show. And as you admitted, my presumptions about you not watching the series was correct.

It's a vehicle series used to catapult a once high profile dead lawyers family into the media spotlight and that's it. That is the sole justification for the series and why it exists. That's what most reality television shows are, vehicles to promote an X list celebrity into a C list one. It's no surprise that reality television is generally seen by the public as a cesspool where stars go to get their last fifteen minutes of fame. There is no message that the Kardashian's are trying to say. They do not promote family values, contribute extensively to charity or in anyway try to help society. They solely want to publicize their lifestyle in an effort to be famous. They are not giving a public service. They are desperate washed up hags who want publicity and notoriety.

That was why it went to air, not why it has taken off and done well. It is a series about the dynamics of a family. The love and hurt that siblings go through with others in their lives and eachother. Its a show that has a family that is always there for eachother and loves eachother fully. I wasnt aware that tv shows need to send messages and say something to change the world and be of public service. And as for them being desperate washed up hags, wow. how are they washed up when they are doping better than ever before? and hags? I wont even comment..

Nobody is arguing that reality tv is better than anything else on tv.

This is what I posted:

Scripted television will always be better in terms of quality then these reality shows. You can enjoy these disastrous reality shows as much as you want. That doesn't mean they generally aren't poor substitutes for a well thought out and meaningful scripted show.

You posted

Bullshit.

However, it is better than a lot of shitty scripted shows, and the coversation was about reality vs soap operas.

My post was about how scripted shows in general are better then Reality shows when they are well thought out (and even sometimes when they aren't) and they are. Why? Because the shows in general are saying something and have a message and a point to the series. They aren't just following people for the sake of following them and then having a random fight or sexual escapade to keep viewers interested. There is a method to why writers are writing what they write and there is an overall arc of significance. I can't take this argument that reality tv is better then a scripted soap because soaps in general have by and large taken social issues and used the medium they have to say something important every once and awhile. Even if it's only a sporadic story over the course of 3 or so years. Same can't be said with reality television in the slightest. At least not in the forms you have expressed in this thread. Even AMC had story about a handicapped deaf child and GH also dealt with a story about alcoholism just recently by way of an intervention and that was great television.

again if you would pay attention you would see i clearly stated the hills and the kardashians and the real housewives, because the production on those shows are phenomenal.

All of those shows are awful and don't have any content or meaning to them. I don't see how any of those shows are better then some of the soaps you are talking about. GL dealt with a woman who was in her 40's having to deal with the fact that she was a lesbian, ATWT dealt with a young gay man having to come out to his family, GH is now dealing with a woman dying from HIV -- all of those stories within the last ten years have more validity to them then anything on the Hills or Real Housewives.

As for reality stars getting no respect, is that any different than soap opera stars?

No. Not at all. Soap stars at least get awarded for their performances. Get the chance to prove themselves in other forms of media and in general are seen as actors if nothing else. Same can't be said for Reality television stars. There is a reason why no one on the Bad Girls Club is asked to appear on a Primetime show in a guest role and why soap stars generally are.

Edited January 28, 201213 yr by Skin

No. Not at all. Soap stars at least get awarded for their performances. Get the chance to prove themselves in other forms of media and in general are seen as actors if nothing else. Same can't be said for Reality television stars. There is a reason why no one on the Bad Girls Club is asked to appear on a Primetime show in a guest role and why soap stars generally are.

What happened to the stigma of soap stars getting little respect and treated as a joke by their industry? When did that change bc it has always tended to be looked down upon. Unfortunate but true. For the most part, the Bad Girls Club girls arent actors, nor do most of them try to be. PLENTY of reality stars get primetime spots as well as cameo roles in movies. Nene , Sheree and Kandi from Real Housewives, The Kardashian girls, Lauren Conrad from The Hills, Paris Hilton among others. And I dont t think most soap stars are "asked" to do primetime guest spots. This is their job and they have agents who actively seek roles out for them. Thats how it generally works unless its some cross promotion stint with their network (ex. Rebecca Budig and Cameron Mathison on Castle)

All of those shows are awful and don't have any content or meaning to them. I don't see how any of those shows are better then some of the soaps you are talking about. GL dealt with a woman who was in her 40's having to deal with the fact that she was a lesbian, ATWT dealt with a young gay man having to come out to his family, GH is now dealing with a woman dying from HIV -- all of those stories within the last ten years have more validity to them then anything on the Hills or Real Housewives.

Dealing with social issues doesnt equal entertaining tv, especially not when the show's production values are horrendous, the writing is bad and the overall story is just plain boring. I love my soaps but theres been way too many awful, boring and downright offensive stories dealing with social stories in the last 10 years that just were not handled well at all.

My post was about how scripted shows in general are better then Reality shows when they are well thought out (and even sometimes when they aren't) and they are. Why? Because the shows in general are saying something and have a message and a point to the series. They aren't just following people for the sake of following them and then having a random fight or sexual escapade to keep viewers interested. There is a method to why writers are writing what they write and there is an overall arc of significance. I can't take this argument that reality tv is better then a scripted soap because soaps in general have by and large taken social issues and used the medium they have to say something important every once and awhile. Even if it's only a sporadic story over the course of 3 or so years. Same can't be said with reality television in the slightest. At least not in the forms you have expressed in this thread. Even AMC had story about a handicapped deaf child and GH also dealt with a story about alcoholism just recently by way of an intervention and that was great television.

Drunken grandfather runs over his son's kid, feels little remorse, refused to take responsibility for his actions, while mother forgives him and blames herself? Intervention on a weekly basis handles issues of alcohol and drug abuse better than GH did with that story. And yes that show is great tv too.

Edited January 28, 201213 yr by Cheap21

What happened to the stigma of soap stars getting little respect and treated as a joke by their industry? When did that change bc it has always tended to be looked down upon.Paris Hilton among others.

I feel like you are largely making my point here. Paris Hilton pretty much established what reality television has become in it's current state. She is largely credited for being famous for doing nothing, and only becoming important because of her family and people she was associated with. People don't respect her at all and that's largely the way all people see reality television stars who exist solely because of a tv program. Soap actors are still actors if nothing else. Even if they are looked down upon for the genre that they work in, they still have more respect because they act and have a legitimate reason for their fame or notoriety. They can crossover into other mediums and become acclaimed which is not something most reality stars can do. Once their 15 minutes is up they fade and are forgotten. In general all film actors are more respected then their reality personality counterparts. You had stars like Meg Ryan, Josh Duhmel, Ryan Phillipe, Sarah Michelle Gellar all come from soaps and they are all more respected then any of the personalities you mentioned above.

Dealing with social issues doesnt equal entertaining tv

Who said that it does? I was talking more about the fact that there is a meaning and effort behind what they say and produce which makes soaps more creditable and important then most reality television shows. A story that has teeth is important and most of the time scripted shows do it much better then a lot of reality television does. In terms of overall talent in terms of writing, acting, etc. There are still scripted shows that leave reality shows in the dust.

Drunken grandfather runs over his son's kid, feels little remorse, refused to take responsibility for his actions, while mother forgives him and blames herself? Intervention on a weekly basis handles issues of alcohol and drug abuse better than GH did with that story. And yes that show is great tv too.

Even if you hated the way the story ended up I don't think the work and material can be said to be anything less than pure quality by way of great writing, acting and story telling. You may have felt the story was executed poorly for Luke and Elizabeth's conclusions by the end of it all, but the material was by and large still great.Just take a look at these two scenes shortly after Jake's death to get the full ramifications of the storyline.

Those two scenes are probably up there with the greatest scenes filmed for television all last year.

Edited January 28, 201213 yr by Skin

Drunken grandfather runs over his son's kid, feels little remorse, refused to take responsibility for his actions, while mother forgives him and blames herself? Intervention on a weekly basis handles issues of alcohol and drug abuse better than GH did with that story. And yes that show is great tv too.

And let's not even get started with soaps' teen pregnancy storylines versus Teen Mom.

And let's not even get started with soaps' teen pregnancy storylines versus Teen Mom.

OLTL's Destiny story for the win!

I don't know why this is soaps vs "reality" (which isn't even real) when the real subject is the complete lack of merit to these bullshit shows starring these no talent nobodies who contribute nothing. Like or dislike GH all you want, Tony Geary tries his best, he reads his lines, he tries to bring in some emotion if possible. He is working with people who spend time writing, lighting, editing, directing, generally trying their best on a shoestring budget to tell a story. Maybe it is a bad story, but that is just coincidence. The real point is the entire crew of 50 or 100 people set out to produce something with some sort of artistic merit to make it worth watching.

And then there is this crap

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nhOZ-2c2WhI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vv-3ifv01RI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NRzBvSgcFho" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OH5itggyFCI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And what else really needs to be shown to illustrate the sum total of reality TV?

And it is a rule that when you are on these shows faking a fight, you have to talk with your hands?

BACK to the Kardashians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbRrdu0dRiA

Did you see the finale ratings?

AMAZING. Highest ever, 3rd highest in E! history.

I believe it was the #1 sunday cable show 7 out of 9 episodes.