Dixie Carter (Brandy, EON) has passed away

[DRW50]

Yeah, I don't think the politics are all that dated. It's more the unabashed liberalism and the outspoken female characters which are probably seen as dated, because you can't have any of that on a TV show now.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Syndication has been a goldmine for TV execs since the 50's. If a show is successful in syndication, it continues to turn a profit and makes more in syndication than in its original broadcast run.

Lifetime has existed since February 1984, just before The Golden Girls and Designing Women hit the air.

Though, in their original broadcast runs, The Golden Girls was the more mainstream ratings hit, whereas Designing Women seemed more like a cult show that had a following, but not on a grand scale as some other sitcoms of the time. I guess many of these sensibilities carried on into syndication.

I don't know, I look at a show like Murphy Brown, which was much more of a politically conscious sitcom, and strangely a bigger ratings hit than Designing Women in the late 80's/early 90's, and the topical political humour, which is all over that show, has aged the show horribly, IMO. I think it's partly why the show hasn't been a huge success in cable syndication.

[DRW50]

The problem with Murphy Brown is more that they named specific politicians and themes. Stuff like Dan Quayle, while it's an interesting topic, makes it more dated. Stuff like Murphy assigned to follow Bill Clinton as he jogs is from a whole other universe -- most people today would never think of Bill Clinton as the President who jogged.

The other problem is that the political humor really became toothless as the show went on. I remember when Newt Gingrich appeared and Murphy Brown, a very, very liberal, outspoken woman, basically said, "Oh, Newtie Newt Newt," and this was passed off as banter. Obviously they weren't going to have her tear him to pieces, as he would not have appeared on the show if she had, but it made me cringe. Actually it was one of the reasons I stopped watching the show back then.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Then again though, there's a show like Roseanne, which was all about an unapologetic, strong-willed, and blur-collar liberal-minded woman that has been a syndication hit for years. Though you could tell that show took place in the late 80's and 90's, there's a certain timeless quality to the first 8 seasons, especially in the open-ended and realistic ways they dealt with social and everyday problems.

[DRW50]

Roseanne was more of a family comedy where they didn't really get into the political stuff heavily. They did tackle social issues but not in a major way, at least until later on. It was usually about the characters and how they laughed through their troubles.

I wonder about the ratings for the episodes starting midway through. That was around the time I lost interest, especially with Jackie and her whole, "I don't need a man, I'm going to dump my perfectly nice boyfriend because I don't need a man...oh wait, I'm going to spend every episode talking about how I need a man and being a bitter cow!!!" routine that butchered her character beyond belief.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

The show was a top 10 ratings hit for 7 out of its 9 seasons, and only fell out of the top 20 during its last season, understandably.

[DRW50]

I kept some track of the ratings then (I remember they seemed to start falling about halfway through), but I was wondering about syndication. Without the emotional attachment and years of buildup, I wonder if people might tune out of the later episodes more quickly. Around the time Darlene went to college and all that I don't think the show was ever the same.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

There was definitely something strange that happened to the show after season 6. I think season 6 was the last time the show was consistently great. Seasons 7 and 8 had their moments, but it was getting stale. Season 9 was a totally different show, but from what I understand, it was a metaphor for Roseanne's real life.

Though, personally, I think the show peaked in its greatness and relevance in season 5 - which was the perfect combination of social drama, sarcastic wit, and portrayals of independent working-class women.

After season 6, the show fell out of the top 5, and by season 7 it was ranked #10.

Darlene was definitely the most interesting of Roseanne's kids, but maybe that's because she was the most like Roseanne.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

I think it's pretty sad that we're discussing shows from the late 80's and early 90's like The Golden Girls, Designing Women, Murphy Brown, and Roseanne, and now look at the state of female characters on television. Television seemed more progressive and diverse in its portrayals of women 20 years ago...

[DRW50]

There's been such an ugly and ever-continuing backlash against women. These days you can only be a strong, aggressive female voice if you support patriarchy and lash out against your own gender.

I also think that the term "PC" had a long term and very damaging effect on representation of women and minorities in the media. So did the political campaigns of 1988, 1992 and 1994.

[DeliaIrisFan]

Well, that's the problem, IMO. It may seem out of place now because portrayal of women and the scope of political discourse on TV had moved backwards. I think something like the Honeymooners is a hell of a lot more dated, and whereas Linda Bloodworth Thomason could certainly turn a phrase and Dixie Carter's delivery was incredible, Jackie Gleason's tirades are not funny or well-written either. Why that is still in syndication (or was until very recently, I'm pretty sure) is beyond me, but small-minded chauvinism is alive and well on TV.

[DRW50]

I think the Honeymooners gets more notice because of its early days of TV status, and because of some of the characters like Norton. Audrey Meadows also did a lot of work in making the show slightly more balanced. I have to agree it's not a show I love watching.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

The original Honeymooners has like, what, 19 episodes? I know it was in some selected local markets in syndication for years, but I don't think it is anymore.

I agree, it probably gets more notice for nostalgia and the early days of television appeal.

Then, of course, there's I Love Lucy, which has been in syndication since it originally left the air...

[Khan]

I think that's one reason why I eventually decided not to pursue a career writing for movies and television, let alone soaps. I'm not saying I'm the world's most ardent feminist; I can make a sexist joke with the rest of 'em. But I was raised around women who were funny, smart, and self-effacing while still proudly feminine; and I refuse to write any woman any other way.

Exactly. Also, whether DW was a GG rip-off or not, I have to give Linda Bloodworth-Thomason (and Pamela Norris, who became her second-in-command for many seasons) credit for not allowing the four leads to lapse into Southern stereotypes (something even GG's Blanche was guilty of - although, in the writers' defense, it was often intentional) and for keeping their personalities distinct and indentifiable, too. I think it was GG producer Tracy Gamble who said that, after awhile, you couldn't tell a "Rose joke" from a "Dorothy joke" from a "Blanche joke" from a "Sophia joke" because Marc Sotkin, who became showrunner after Kathy Speer & Terry Grossman left, turned the entire show from a character-driven one into a joke-driven one.

And please, do NOT get me started on "Desperate Housewives." For a show that's essentially a parody of "Knots Landing," it's doing no one connected to it any favors.

[Khan]

Julia Duffy was doomed only b/c, everyone knew she was there to fill Delta Burke's place as the chief antagonist/agitator of the group. Also, as wonderful as she was on "Newhart," 1) I've always found her to be a one-note actress who cannot play much beyond "snooty blue-blood"; and 2) her character, Stephanie Vanderkellen, worked b/c...well...a stuck-up rich girl "working" as a maid at a quaint Vermont inn was as improbable-and-yet-probable as everything else on that bizarre show. (Besides, you never watched "Newhart" for the characters, but for Dick Loudon's reactions to them.) Put that on another series, such as DW, and what looks quirky on one series now looks mean-spirited and unfunny on the other.

On paper, B.J. as the conservative counterpart to the more liberal Julia might look fine. Unfortunately, B.J. was just as opinionated and headstrong as Julia, and that doesn't always "work" onstage. Also, Ivey's more suited for drama; and she had no chemistry with Carter whatsoever.

B.J. needed to be the Vera Charles to Julia's Auntie Mame. Instead, B.J. became Mame; Julia softened and became less of the "big shouldered broad" that we fell in love with, with the crappy explanation that she was menopausal, and thus, less on the ball; Mary Jo turned into some drunken idiot (except, w/ no booze); and Carlene generally became whiny and miserable. Throw in more-emasculated-than-ever Anthony, more-DERANGED-than-ever Bernice, and the epic fail that was the unfunny and, at times, downright offensive Etienne, and you see why DW had to die.