3 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

And another question to address "Holly":

Why was Roger fascinated by Holly?  Roger's sexual attraction to Holly was both obvious and understandable...was that the sole source of his fascination, or was it some other tangible or intangible?  

After all, Holly was hardly the only enticing seductress in town.

 

I think it's because she saw right through him. (at least when they return to town in '89.) Roger was able to pull the wool over other women's eyes. They fall for the hurt little boy, who convinces them that only she could possibly really understand him. Plus, Holly is the only one who can offer him redemption, which he craves but doesn't really want to work for.

23 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

To be honest, during the Curlee era in the early 90s... GL veered dangerously close to the sterile and repressed quality that Douglas Marland had turned ATWT turned into.

I  can't exactly argue with that idea. Sometimes it seemed like they only reason characters got noble was to further the plot. What drives me crazy about the Nadine/Billy/Van triangle is how Nadine makes a chump out of the both of them. Even when Van dumps Fletch (YAY!) and wants her man back, Nadine pulls out the weakest damn argument (because Nadine's pregnant, wouldn't it be the loving thing for Van to do to not tell Billy that she wants him back....RME)

But I still love the Curlee era.

Annette - I agree, and Vanessa/Holly could have found mutual respect/camaraderie in pursuit of practical advice/opinion in business matters especially.  The two may also offer each other up as a useful, early detection system.  Not sure if the two could eventually warm up to each other on a deeper emotional plane as Holly's highly neurotic/erratic nature would undoubtedly be anathema to Vanessa's earthy existence.  (Although it would be awesome to have Vanessa learn from Holly directly that the latter's nuttiness has been largely a ruse.  And for Holly to prove it.  Now that is something Vanessa would understand and glom onto immediately.  That, and catty conversations about all things Nadine.)

kalbir - thanks for the article.  I have not seen that.  I like the last observation a great deal...about Holly's barbs and bemused detachment toward everything Roger.  There was a lot of that portrayed on GL.  However, I would think that would only increase Holly's sexual attractiveness to Roger, enticing him and egging him on.  Certainly, it's a means of keeping your friends close, but your enemies closer, where you can keep your eyes on them.  Holly sure loved to thread that needle!  Always dancing on the edge of the cliff, wasn't she?

PJ -  That's a good response, too.  Holly does offer the ultimate redemption to Roger (especially after Roger fails to obtain redemption from his father Adam).  As a foundational source of his fascination with Holly, I could buy that.  Especially since Holly's hell-bound to keep him at arm's length away as a means of self-protection.  

I think as important, Holly's really the only person that can grant Roger a modicum of self-respect.  It's pretty wild that it is Holly who offers Roger the best shot at anything resembling stability.  That's some crazy she-yit, isn't it?  Gotta love it!

Aside from that, PJ, it's a real shame that Vanessa and Holly didn't have a lengthy sit-down chat about Billy.  With Holly's experience with pins and cliffs (no wonder she had so many migraines!), she would have been a great ear and perhaps an excellent source of advice to Vanessa as she dealt with Billy.

There should have been a very strong heart-to-heart between Van and Holly in late 1993 right as Billy was going off the rails and the Peter custody battle was heating up.  An opportunity blown by TPTB.  The two could have had a helluva tete-a-tete regarding Ed, Bridget and Ross at the time, too.

(It's interesting that later, in 1995, both Vanessa and Ross push Holly to have a conversation with Dinah in an attempt to deter Dinah from marrying Roger.  It's the first time I remember Vanessa summoning Holly's street smarts.  Holly does have that talk with Dinah - a fantastic and well written scene where Holly warns Dinah about her future with Roger.  Watch it sometime.)

AlwaysAMC probably ran across that scene a few months back.  Any idea when that took place?  Maybe Summer 1995?

 

 

 

 

Well, Soaplovers and PJ, I am going to disagree with you both to an extent regarding  a perceived sterile and repressed take on early 1990s GL.

Why?

Note that during the early 1990s, a sizeable portion of the show's plot protagonists were shorter-term, intentionally disposable characters against whom the "contract" characters responded to.  That laundry list included:  Rae Rooney, Gary Swanson, Daniel St John, Jean Wetherill, the Vizinni mobster family, the guy who tried to rape Vanessa, Vinny Morrison.

All of them moved plot.  Some quite significantly.

There are significant advantages in having bit players move plot.  Smart scribes can better protect the integrity of long-term characters through the use of short-term movers and shakers.  Additionally, short-term invaders of the landscape can impact any character significantly (even Roger or Alexandra, say) as the invaders might be total unknowns to all.  And, even the bittiest of bit players can have significance.  Think Elvis, Bridget's brief boyfriend.

My take?  I would agree that early 1990s GL may have been somewhat plot-sterile where "contract" characters are concerned.  But the show overall being sterile?  No way.  Not even close.  I was fascinated, easily four days a week.  

 

PJ:  "What drives me crazy about the Nadine/Billy/Van triangle is how Nadine makes a chump out of the both of them."

I bet it did, noting your disgust with all things Nadine.  LOL.

Whomever here said maybe 1-2 months ago that Nadine should have been a real estate agent was right on the money!  A truly excellent idea!!  Nadine's personality and social dis-acumen (lol) would have been perfect.  A lower-class broad, wheeling and dealing with the movers and shakers, and making boatloads of cash.  Especially if she was both a residential and commercial licensee.  The bs that could have come out of her mouth could have been at times hilarious and vomit inducing.  

Sleeping around to get a deal done, wearing garish clothes, sharing all of Springfield's gossip.

Think about it PJ:  Nadine.  Springfield's Highly Apropos Real Estate Agent.  Tacky billboards up on every arterial roadway in Springfield!   TPTB could even display the billboards outside of car accident scenes.  Or, maybe Bridget could have given birth to Peter in her car...with Nadine's billboard plastered in the background!  Lovely thought!

A highly desirable side benefit:  No Buzz Cooper required.

 

 

 

@Speed Racer Nadine as a prototype for Beyond the Gates Vanessa McBride, I could see that.

I’m up to September 30, 1997.

Holly sees Abby in the hospital and it triggers memories of Roger raping her, just as she bumps into Roger in the hospital. She reminds him that her rape is something she will never forget, even though he keeps telling her they’re both meant to be together. Meanwhile, Abby is released from the hospital and goes home to Goshen for a week to be with her parents and recover. She returns to Springfield and Rick takes care of her, but she starts having nightmares and visions of her attacker. She feels broken and is having a hard time getting close to Rick.

Cassie continues to enjoy Josh, Billy and Reva and has turned on Alan/Annie, however Alan continues to blackmail her and use his power over her ability to see Tammy to keep her in line. She finds out Alan had Tammy removed from the foster parents she’s used to and she takes it very hard. She goes to the bar, gets drunk and starts stripping for men on the pool table. After having a bad fight with Dinah due to her insecurities and fears about getting Vanessa’s disease, Hart goes to that same bar and watches Cassie dance. He ends up removing her from the bar and gets her away from the ogling men she’s dancing on and takes her home. Next morning, Dinah comes over to apologize, but sees Cassie in Hart’s shirt having breakfast and she flips out thinking they slept together (they didn’t). Hart explains what happens and Dinah apologizes and they kiss, but the seed is planted. Later, Cassie prepares to move into the boarding house and Dinah sees Cassie with Hart and Peter yet again. There is a fantastic cat fight in the Company bathroom between Dinah and Cassie and I’m really enjoying this rivalry.  Dinah continues to take her birth control, keeping that secret from Hart, who wants to make a baby. Dinah is still worried she’ll have Vanessa’s hereditary disease and doesn’t want to have a baby because of that.

Wow - Alan/Annie go to Reva/Josh and Annie tearfully tells them that HB passed away last night at Cross Creek. He died of a heart attack, doing what he loved - fly fishing. It’s very moving watching Josh cry and break down over the news. Billy joins Josh and Reva and they continue crying and remembering HB. Billy mentioned he ‘finally got a hold of Hamp and he’s doing a world tour with Kat’ (his daughter). I’m happy we finally have some reference to Hamp after all this time (even though by now, the actor has sadly died). Billy then goes to Vanessa and tells her about HB and they hug.  Later, Ross brings HB’s will over and Josh reads it aloud. He gives Reva all his personal shares of Lewis Oil stock, so I guess this is how Reva maintains some sort of independent wealth going forward.

HB’s memorial was on September 11, which was really well done and had nice flashbacks. Billy, Bill, Reva, Vanessa, Marah and Josh all spoke. There was a fun flashback during Bill’s speech with Henry, HB and Bill as a child. Mindy surprised everyone by coming, and it’s not the actress I was familiar with in 1995 (Crampton), so must have been another actress from before then. Dylan also shows up and he brought Peter, which was finally nice to watch Vanessa see and hug him again. Bridget couldn’t come because she started classes (boo). Reva tries pairing Rusty up with Cassie (ha). I’m not really sure why Cassie is even there considering she’s brand new and just a secretary, but she and Dinah verbally spar a bit and that’s likely why. Trish arrives just as the memorial starts, who I’ve learned is HB’s daughter and Josh and Billy’s sister. She and Ross hug and they clearly have a past that he quickly jokes about with Blake, I’ll have to look that history up later. It ended with a lady named Barbara singing an interesting version of Amazing Grace, which honestly sounded a little pitchy to me, but it was effective nonetheless. Even Hart and Dylan separately had funny looks on their faces when she was singing haha.

Before HB’s memorial, Annie had to go back to the psych ward, and Jenna/Harley work to get inside so they can get more information on Reva’s sister (they’re still working the case for Reva). Jenna surprises Harley by making up a story that Harley is her little sister and needs medical attention and should stay in the ward. Harley is pissed about it, but has to go along with it, and now Harley is stuck in the ward with Annie. This is my first time enjoying Harley because she’s actually pretty funny playing a silly little crazy girl named ‘Caitlin’ who annoys Annie, but continues to get closer to her. She’s had to escape Alan seeing her a couple times, and Alan starts to warn Annie about Harley (whom Annie hasn’t met yet in person), because Reva has hired her to find out more about her sister. Phillip visits a couple times and Annie catches Phillip and Harley making out, so Phillip tries to pretend that crazy ‘Caitlin’ forced him into the kiss but Annie is starting to question it all. She eventually finds a dry cleaning receipt in Harley’s pocket that says Cooper, and then she secretly has Alan identify her and they realize it’s Harley. So, Annie starts to make her life hell all while still pretending not to know her and it’s really funny. Annie is finally scheduled to leave the ward, so that morning she secretly updates ‘Caitlin’s’ doctor’s orders to administer Harley medication, so as Annie walks out, the nurses give Harley a heavy drug. She resists but the meds start taking effect and she goes crazy. Phillip, Buzz and Jenna eventually storm the ward to save Harley.

The next morning, Phillip goes to Spaulding Mansion and rages at Annie about it, so I guess that friendship is sadly over. But Alan is secretly mad at Annie for doing something he wasn’t aware of and harming Harley. He rages at her, tells her he’s cutting his loses with her and kicks her out of the mansion. After he leaves, Reva and Blake knock Annie out with a chloroform handkerchief and they take her (wow!). Alan returns and asks the maid to pack up Annie’s stuff, just as Josh storms in and punches him. They later find the handkerchief Reva/Blake accidentally dropped outside the mansion. Blake exits this storyline after helping Reva tie up Annie. Reva drives a tied up Annie to Cross Creek. Then, Reva forces Annie to look at all the places she and Josh had sex, their names carved into the wooden mantel, her wedding album LOL. Reva then surprises Annie by revealing Fran, who tells Annie that Alan paid her to testify against her, which made her lose everything. Annie doesn’t believe it, but Alan and Josh finally show up. Alan confesses, Annie slaps him, vows never to get back with him and she runs off alone.

Buzz has gotten a few secret admirer-style notes, flowers and cookies and Nola is involved in helping him figure out who it is. Oh wow, a few days later, there’s a stalker watching Buzz and Jenna. He enters their home through the window and looks at pictures and eventually takes a picture of Buzz and Cooper, but we can’t see who it is. It’s pretty creepy and intriguing… Oh my gosh, it’s revealed to be Nola when she escapes and realizes she’s missing an earring and has a flashback to running from the fire escape. That totally seems out of character, so I’ll be interested in seeing what her motivation was. Now she’s alone and ripping up photos of Buzz and Jenna, what is happening haha. She seems like a very sad, lonely woman who just watches old romance movies and fantasizes about Buzz and her acting out those scenes. She then dreams of Buzz/Jenna getting married and stopping the wedding and running off with Buzz. This is all so random haha.

Vanessa gets tests done at the hospital to see if her condition is getting better or worse, and Rick tells her she’s in remission and everything is ok with her disease. However, she is pregnant!  Wow, I wasn’t expecting that LOL. Ah, but then Rick and Michael tell them that if she keeps the baby, the risk of her disease coming back is too high. Vanessa pretends like it’s ok and she wants to have the baby, while Matt strongly disagrees because he doesn’t want to lose her all over again. They start to fight about this, but Vanessa finally agrees to terminate the pregnancy.

Drew is jealous of Dahlia and Sugar’s attention over her, so she’s starting to find ways to get rid of Dahlia altogether.  She takes pictures of Dahlia and Sugar dancing during rehearsal and mails the pictures to Marcus who rages about it. Dahlia meets with Sugar about it, but he ends up kissing her, she slaps him and says she’s done and doesn’t want his contract anymore. Drew’s dad has taken notice of Dinah too and keeps trying to take her out, even though she keeps saying she’s engaged to Hart.

Michelle has another vision of Maureen with Ed this time, who is now played by the original actor, Robert Gentry (not Peter Simon, who I’m used to in the mid-90s). Michelle is going to Springfield U now and she’s still in love with Jesse. Jesse gets a job waiting tables at Company, but isn’t good at it. Michelle revisits finding her mother’s heart and mentions it to Jesse that she’s looking for someone from Point Lester near Jesse’s house with the last name of Diaz. He asks when her mother died and he starts to freak out, as if he knows who it may be, but he doesn’t tell her. Meta calls Michelle and asks her to come home because her father, Ed Bauer, has come back home (9/30). We see Michelle and Ed hug, and the actor again is Robert Gentry (not Peter Simon). In the next scene, Jesse is alone in the Company bathroom, looks in the mirror, opens his shirt where you can see a scar on his chest, and says he has Michelle’s mother’s heart and he can never tell her! I called this from day 1. Jesse is so hot btw.

8 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 (It's interesting that later, in 1995, both Vanessa and Ross push Holly to have a conversation with Dinah in an attempt to deter Dinah from marrying Roger.  It's the first time I remember Vanessa summoning Holly's street smarts.  Holly does have that talk with Dinah - a fantastic and well written scene where Holly warns Dinah about her future with Roger.  Watch it sometime.)

AlwaysAMC probably ran across that scene a few months back.  Any idea when that took place?  Maybe Summer 1995?

I definitely remember that scene!  Ugh, I wish I had taken more detailed notes in 1995 (started to do so in October/November 1995). Based on what I can tell, Roger faked his car crash death in late May and then Roger/Dinah got married in September, so you're right that it was some point in summer of 1995. Probably August. Holly/Fletcher got married on July 7th and she found out she was pregnant in August...

My take on the Holly/Roger thing was....the writers should have QUIT while they were AHEAD.

I can't tell you the year but I remember a particular scene. Roger and Holly were snooping around the Spaulding mansion and were caught by young Ben Reade who tells them the Spauldings hate their guts.   What stands out about this scene was Roger and Holly were totally in love and working together....they overcame every dark and twisted thing from their past and were at last happy. They beat the odds and overcame and were finally a true couple. That was how they should have remained until one or both left the show but no...not long after the writers and producers tanked it all and put Holly with Fletcher....a fatal mistep as neither of the characters really clicked with anyone else ever again.

22 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

And another question to address "Holly":

Why was Roger fascinated by Holly?  Roger's sexual attraction to Holly was both obvious and understandable...was that the sole source of his fascination, or was it some other tangible or intangible?  

After all, Holly was hardly the only enticing seductress in town.

 

I think it was because Holly truly loved him. I remember the Cliffhouse scenes in 1993 when Roger told Holly that that he never saw in anyone else's eyes what he saw in hers. I also think that Roger, in some ways, felt like he could be himself around her. Granted, he was never truly himself with anyone as there was always an ulterior motive to most of his actions, but the pair shared some really fantastic conversations, and he certainly opened himself up more with her than any of the other women he was paired with. They had a best friend quality about them at times. 

I also think he never wanted anything else from Holly other than her love, whereas with all his other women there was something else he needed from them. 

They also were evenly matched in terms of intelligence and sophistication. 

Annette

Edited August 27Aug 27 by GL Oldtimer

8 hours ago, Lujack4Ever said:

My take on the Holly/Roger thing was....the writers should have QUIT while they were AHEAD.

I can't tell you the year but I remember a particular scene. Roger and Holly were snooping around the Spaulding mansion and were caught by young Ben Reade who tells them the Spauldings hate their guts.   What stands out about this scene was Roger and Holly were totally in love and working together....they overcame every dark and twisted thing from their past and were at last happy. They beat the odds and overcame and were finally a true couple. That was how they should have remained until one or both left the show but no...not long after the writers and producers tanked it all and put Holly with Fletcher....a fatal mistep as neither of the characters really clicked with anyone else ever again.

I hated when the show paired Holly with Fletcher. As a Roger and Holly fan it was a tough watch, especially since the writers spent so many years working Roger and Holly back to one another. Several pages back, @MLHhad mentioned that it didn't make sense that Holly went back to completely hating Roger. I totally agree. Too much progress had been made by that point in their relationship for her to revert back to hating him. 

I do think the writers wasted an opportunity once they paired Roger and Holly together as there was a lot of baggage these two had to work through just to be together, and I thought that was something that could have been explored more while they were together.  

Mostly though, I was so annoyed at how Maureen Garrett's talents were wasted for almost two years after the writers paired her with Fletcher. Holly got backed into a corner with that pairing and the writers didn't seem to have any interest in untangling her from it. 

Annette

Edited August 28Aug 28 by GL Oldtimer

15 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

PJ:  "What drives me crazy about the Nadine/Billy/Van triangle is how Nadine makes a chump out of the both of them."

I bet it did, noting your disgust with all things Nadine.  LOL.

Whomever here said maybe 1-2 months ago that Nadine should have been a real estate agent was right on the money!  A truly excellent idea!!  Nadine's personality and social dis-acumen (lol) would have been perfect.  A lower-class broad, wheeling and dealing with the movers and shakers, and making boatloads of cash.  Especially if she was both a residential and commercial licensee.  The bs that could have come out of her mouth could have been at times hilarious and vomit inducing.  

Sleeping around to get a deal done, wearing garish clothes, sharing all of Springfield's gossip.

Think about it PJ:  Nadine.  Springfield's Highly Apropos Real Estate Agent.  Tacky billboards up on every arterial roadway in Springfield!   TPTB could even display the billboards outside of car accident scenes.  Or, maybe Bridget could have given birth to Peter in her car...with Nadine's billboard plastered in the background!  Lovely thought!

A highly desirable side benefit:  No Buzz Cooper required.

 

 

 

That was me that wanted Nadine to become a Real Estate agent that turns into a brokerage.  That way she can be in all sorts of storylines and have people work for her too. Instead they had her doing her TV advice show at the freaking diner. 

@Speed Racer  I didn't like the Holly talking to Dinah about Roger.  First off, I didn't buy for one second that Dinah was in love with Roger.  Anyone with a brain cell knew Roger used Dinah to make Holly jealous.  That dream Vanessa had of the scenario that Roger would make sure no one could even go and visit Dinah was beyond ludicrous to me. 

Roger was right that they were more upset about her being with Roger than that Viktor dude threatening her life. 

The warning Amanda got was more realistic.  Holly's mean article was as well. It was true how he gained power and his reaction showed it hit home. 

I thought the show went too fast in getting them together, because all those storylines with rape involved would reflect on Holly still being with Roger. That's why it was never going to work.  It should have been slower and Roger should have had one solid relationship before getting with Holly. Or a solid relationship with Blake and Hart first. 

Lastly, Roger wasn't meant to lose all other aspects of his life over Holly.  Roger wouldn't just be satisfied with just working for Spaulding.  He was always wanted it all and the show was making him into Grandpa Thorpe.

 

Edited August 27Aug 27 by MLH

All of this talk about Holly being the key to Roger's redemption is messed up.  No way should a victim of rape and kidnapping ever be expected to be the key to her tormentor/rapist.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

All of this talk about Holly being the key to Roger's redemption is messed up.  No way should a victim of rape and kidnapping ever be expected to be the key to her tormentor/rapist.

I agree. Especially considering that Holly was not Roger's only victim. He had a long history of violence against women.

28 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

All of this talk about Holly being the key to Roger's redemption is messed up.  No way should a victim of rape and kidnapping ever be expected to be the key to her tormentor/rapist.

 

 

You are completely right about that. In real life, this wouldn't even be up for discussion as far as I'm concerned.

But in soaps, especially in the years that I watched, I always felt like the writers made the victim be the key to the perpetrator's redemption.

Annette