13 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

And, prefab, forgot to say that I never rooted for Jeffrey EVER for any reason & my rationale was that I did not want Bradley Cole on my screen & that he raped Young Olivia & took away her innocence.

I never understood how the rape was swept under the rug? And they had Reva marry him...(the guy was an ass from the beginning, remember him calling Harley "terrier" and it was supposed to be oh so cute and masculine) he understood her and accepted her...plot point to keep Cole on our screens. 

By the way, did they ever resolve WHO poisoned the drinks that was meant for Jefferey but Blake drank (and put her in a coma so they wouldn't have to write or pay for her.) 

12 hours ago, P.J. said:

And in '08, there was the Max saga, only he died. The way the show struggled against the WASPy Vanessa not just bluntly saying "that baby is black!" is more restrained than I would usually give them credit for being.

I forgot about that...the baby conceived on the outhouse floor..a true nadir in GL history and proof Wheeler didn't know which way was up. But it did give Van a great scene when Mel had the nerve to threaten her....Van, "I realize you don't know who you are dealing with, so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I advice you to tread lightly" or something like that

28 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

I forgot about that...the baby conceived on the outhouse floor..a true nadir in GL history and proof Wheeler didn't know which way was up.  .... 

Another example of a time & event where it showed that Wheeler's judgment was at best questionable & at worst, maybe actionable (? not sure there's anything to sue over). Anyway, to this second example I am thinking of, Wheeler tried to get Maureen Garrett to play like she was feeling romantic toward Sebastian. I MEAN what the phuck was going on in what passed for a brain in her head, assuming that was not just an empty space between her left & right ears! Of course, MG rejected it entirely & thank god for actors who have the mental fortitude to say NO. That "idea" was stopped, dead, in its tracks, did not continue on. But, Sebastian did actually kiss Holly, if you remember when he had her held in a literal cell. 

This screencap shows where Holly & Sebastian almost kiss. This was something Wheeler specifically gave MG the direction to do & it was not as bad as what she wanted, which would have been not almost but that they did kiss.

 

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

I never understood how the rape was swept under the rug? And they had Reva marry him...(the guy was an ass from the beginning, remember him calling Harley "terrier" and it was supposed to be oh so cute and masculine) he understood her and accepted her...plot point to keep Cole on our screens. 

Along with Jonathan, Jeffrey was another reason I mostly tapped out of the show at the end.

I get that they wanted BC to play a character as different from Richard as possible, but why they felt they had to make him a relentlessly vile scumbag, I will never understand. Learn how to create a bit of complexity if you want an "edgy" character. 

Roger was always a really bad guy, but I never thought, "Ew, get this a-hole off my screen, he makes me want to hurl." 

That's because the writers didn't think making nasty words fall out of his mouth every time he opened it was all they needed to do to create the character. (And, of course, Zaslow could actually act).

I’m not generally one of those people who thinks a POC should be on a tv show just for the sake of having a POC but the lack of diversity in the 90s cast is pretty glaring. It almost makes it kind of boring to not have atleast any Latino or black characters at all which we know there was plenty of in the U.S in 1999. 
 

Passions was one of the worst soaps ever (if not the worst) in terms of writing but one thing they did get right is their characters. They had a Latino and Black family that were front burner along with the Cranes and Bennetts. Having a diverse cast definitely keeps you interested. Having so many characters who are blond and white makes it difficult for me to separate them on screen sometimes. 

19 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Another example of a time & event where it showed that Wheeler's judgment was at best questionable & at worst, maybe actionable (? not sure there's anything to sue over). Anyway, to this second example I am thinking of, Wheeler tried to get Maureen Garrett to play like she was feeling romantic toward Sebastian. I MEAN what the phuck was going on in what passed for a brain in her head, assuming that was not just an empty space between her left & right ears! Of course, MG rejected it entirely & thank god for actors who have the mental fortitude to say NO. That "idea" was stopped, dead, in its tracks, did not continue on. But, Sebastian did actually kiss Holly, if you remember when he had her held in a literal cell. 

This screencap shows where Holly & Sebastian almost kiss. This was something Wheeler specifically gave MG the direction to do & it was not as bad as what she wanted, which would have been not almost but that they did kiss.

 

If I remember correctly both actors played it differently then written. Seb played it as a romantic fixation that he developed by romanticizing Roger's stories about Holly, and Holly played it, as if she was playing him on his "attraction.' An example of actors who overcome the writing again.

But damn, why wouldn't Seb have the hots for Holly?

Which brings this around to the Sebastian actor was kind of sexy in an ambigous way (there is a scene between he and Josh were Seb is practically flirting with him...) was this a character actor before their time?

Agreed, there is no excuse for the outhouse scenes, written, produced, for the characters, and especially for the actors to have to do that!!!!

Now, I am going to make a speech. You have been warned. I have put it off as long as I can. 

In discussing GL & the end times, we have reason to speak about P&G, CBS, Conboy, Weston, Wheeler, Kreizman, Swajeski and perhaps even Hurst. Possibly MADD or Rauch, also. Most of us can talk about these entities & assign BOTH pluses and minuses. But, there are some, fortunately few, who only assign minuses and only to one entity, Wheeler, and we know who those posters and if they admit it they know, too. 

If they say, which they do, Peapack was all Wheeler. The Wednesday shows same. The Marvel tie-in same. The Katrina helping hands, same. This idea that she somehow did not honor the history, which makes no sense at all, BTW, but to them, same. I'm sure I am leaving off many things.

But, to my point. The new production model was mandated. The only way any of it came from her was that she had the job of implementing it without sufficient budget to support it. And, I would remind you, this is not opinion, this is fact. So, for example, Peapack, was it Wheeler's idea, yes and no, the only reason she ended up going with that was to accommodate the new production model which came from CBS & should have been paid for by P&G but they did not provide the budget to do so. Now, do you see the very real dilemma?

This can be applied even more. And, of course, the Marvel tie-in was not of her concept or design. Whoever happened to be EP when it came up would have to deal with it & she did. Both Harley & the Costume Designer were engaged in making it happen, both onscreen & in print. 

Now, the choice of music, Ellen and/or her staff. The Wednesday shows, yes, her idea & her staff assisted. The Katrina helping hands, yes, again, Wheeler & her staff. The Irna Philips tribute show, yes again, her idea, her staff, etc. 

Now, I think I've said enough. Possibly the naysayers this is really about may be unmoved. Such is life. The rest of us are doing fine with pluses and minuses. 

 

5 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

I get that they wanted BC to play a character as different from Richard as possible, but why they felt they had to make him a relentlessly vile scumbag, I will never understand. Learn how to create a bit of complexity if you want an "edgy" character. 

And they had to have every woman fall for him to force the audience to prove he was "sexy" I can't ever wash the scene out of my mind where he and Beth.."did something" on Alan's desk, and then they showed Alan eating the croissant they did the deed over.. Brad Cole...I would love to find out who the hell was pushing him.

4 minutes ago, Ryanc2 said:

It almost makes it kind of boring to not have atleast any Latino or black characters at all which we know there was plenty of in the U.S in 1999. 

As someone who is Jewish AND Latina...

I will give Long credit for TRYING to introduce a Jewish character. But my mom and I CRINGED at those scenes because they had Harley act like she was observing exotic animals in a zoo. Of course that got deep sixed REALLY fast.

Don't even get me started on the Santos family. OF COURSE they were mobsters. (Love of Life did the same with an Italian family back in the day. Ryan's Hope tried to circumvent the stereotypes by making their mobsters vaguely Eastern European).

A lot of the older soaps flunked big time in this area. It's not surprising the newer ones did a better, if not perfect, job.

6 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

This can be applied even more. And, of course, the Marvel tie-in was not of her concept or design. Whoever happened to be EP when it came up would have to deal with it & she did. Both Harley & the Costume Designer were engaged in making it happen, both onscreen & in print. 

There is no way Ehlers came up with that...(the design of the suit, yes, she had to show off her abs..) but it was Kreizman and Wheeler who came up with that idea, which wasnt even a dream..it was supposed to be real. WTF, even Cleva would think that was stupid. No way did Ehlers or the designer go to Marvel and have a comic made..if they had that power neither one of them would have been on that shinking ship.

Just now, DeeVee said:

Don't even get me started on the Santos family. OF COURSE they were mobsters. (Love of Life did the same with an Italian family back in the day. Ryan's Hope tried to circumvent the stereotypes by making their mobsters vaguely Eastern European).

So weird..they must have made the Santos' Latino as they saw that the Latin audience for soaps was strong...but did they actually think that audience wanted to see a cartoon family of mobsters running around? I think GL, an show that was built around an immigrant German family making it to the upper middle class, would have been perfect to bring in a Latin family and tie them to that core family the Bauers..but as mobsters.It really showed how incredibly dense MADD, Rauch, the net execs were.

7 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

And they had to have every woman fall for him to force the audience to prove he was "sexy" I can't ever wash the scene out of my mind where he and Beth.."did something" on Alan's desk, and then they showed Alan eating the croissant they did the deed over.. Brad Cole...I would love to find out who the hell was pushing him.

For something like two decades I did not know this scene existed. Thanks a lot. 😂

10 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

If I remember correctly both actors played it differently then written. Seb played it as a romantic fixation that he developed by romanticizing Roger's stories about Holly, and Holly played it, as if she was playing him on his "attraction.' An example of actors who overcome the writing again.

I think we agree that the actors "played the subtext". Or said another but similar way, they "played against the text". Although I am making an assumption about the Sebastian actor, where I actually, literally know it about MG. I have a problem with the Sebastian actor, when he was hired, going by what was known about him & what had been written about him, I was quite excited. Later, of course, so much about his personal life came out, but that's for a different thread, or not, who cares at this point. 

10 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

But damn, why wouldn't Seb have the hots for Holly?

Hmm, I see what you mean, why wouldn't ANYONE with a pulse have it bad for MG's Holly?!!! 

10 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

Which brings this around to the Sebastian actor was kind of sexy in an ambigous way (there is a scene between he and Josh were Seb is practically flirting with him...) was this a character actor before their time?

Before I knew anything about his personal life, I found him to be quite appealing. 

But, I still dispute about a romance between Holly and Roger's son. I suppose this is where people say, "But, it's a soap." 

Meh. 

 

6 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

I think GL, an show that was built around an immigrant German family making it to the upper middle class, would have been perfect to bring in a Latin family and tie them to that core family the Bauers..

That would have been amazing.

13 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

There is no way Ehlers came up with that...(the design of the suit, yes, she had to show off her abs..) but it was Kreizman and Wheeler who came up with that idea, which wasnt even a dream..it was supposed to be real. WTF, even Cleva would think that was stupid. No way did Ehlers or the designer go to Marvel and have a comic made..if they had that power neither one of them would have been on that shinking ship.

Now, we have just had a complete screw-up. I did not say that either BE or the Costume Designer came up with squat. What I said had to do with them implementing what they were assigned to do. My point was that the decision to do the Marvel tie-in would have happened pretty far above the level of ANYONE at the studio. It would have happened IMO at least, at the corporate levels of P&G/CBS and Marvel Entertainment. You think it was Ellen & David, I disagree. Did they run with it once it became a possibility? Of course they did. Literally, any soap on the air, would have done so. Did they write the scenes? This is not really a question, it is that obvious. And, the reason I think these things is because I have a modicum of information of what was going on BTS. Was corporate excited? You bet they were. This was meant to be a feather in some people's caps!!

Were fans largely disdainful of the whole thing? Again, it's obvious. We were all there. 

And, to your point about it not being a dream, well, Marvel would have wanted it to be real.  Oy, what am I thinking? They DID want it to be real. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

For something like two decades I did not know this scene existed. Thanks a lot. 😂

There are things that I block out until someone brings them up, here!!!!

47 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Along with Jonathan, Jeffrey was another reason I mostly tapped out of the show at the end.

I get that they wanted BC to play a character as different from Richard as possible, but why they felt they had to make him a relentlessly vile scumbag, I will never understand. Learn how to create a bit of complexity if you want an "edgy" character. 

Roger was always a really bad guy, but I never thought, "Ew, get this a-hole off my screen, he makes me want to hurl." 

That's because the writers didn't think making nasty words fall out of his mouth every time he opened it was all they needed to do to create the character. (And, of course, Zaslow could actually act).

I have a soap group on Facebook. Even though I was dubious, at FB's urging I let them run their AI in my group. It does 3 things. It summarizes posts. It asks questions in the form of a post. It sends me things it thinks are grand via FB Msgr. I haven't decided yet whether to throw it out with the trash. This week it asked us who was the most compelling villain ever? Of course I replied Roger. And, I described him  in terms of why. So nuanced, so layered, so complex, never boring, you hated him, you had to hate him, but you could never look away. Why is this hard to understand? 

 

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

And they had to have every woman fall for him to force the audience to prove he was "sexy" I can't ever wash the scene out of my mind where he and Beth.."did something" on Alan's desk, and then they showed Alan eating the croissant they did the deed over.. Brad Cole...I would love to find out who the hell was pushing him.

Supposedly Cole had a fanbase similar to Kim's. Actively, screaming that they HAD to have him on their screens. I never knew how accurate or true that was. I mean, about BC not about KZ, where I know it was so. 

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

... I think GL, an show that was built around an immigrant German family making it to the upper middle class, would have been perfect to bring in a Latin family and tie them to that core family the Bauers..but as mobsters.It really showed how incredibly dense MADD, Rauch, the net execs were.

Now you have me intrigued. How would it have been tied?

If we only had a son of Mike's, he could have had a romance with lovely and interesting Latin woman & if they married, then is it a dynastic pairing?

Wait, it could have been Michelle & she falls for this dashing ....

This really writes itself, right?

 

Edited June 26Jun 26 by Contessa Donatella

36 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Now you have me intrigued. How would it have been tied?

If we only had a son of Mike's, he could have had a romance with lovely and interesting Latin woman & if they married, then is it a dynastic pairing?

Wait, it could have been Michelle & she falls for this dashing ....

This really writes itself, right?

A few other possibilities:

The Lewises had their oil business in Venezuela. Didn't have to be Sonni/Josh's secret progeny (although that would be fantastically soapy, a fetus surviving Sonni's fall off a cliff). Lots of ways they could have gone with that.

Then, there's Alan's missing years in San Rios. I hate everything to do with that offensively written fake Latin country, and Alan had plenty of secret children, but Gus could have been from that era of his life. (And they could have not killed him off).

Then, of course, Roger. Another one of his kids from his years bouncing around the world as a CIA spook.

I love the idea of bringing in another Bauer child through Mike, but I'm not crazy about cousin couplings. One was enough for GL.

Edited June 26Jun 26 by DeeVee