35 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Like for instance, I think it was a mistake giving Roger a sudden son. The whole thing about Roger, one of his best qualities (and one of his worst, because it became an obsession) was his love for his daughter. Bringing in another kid watered that down.

I actually think that this COULD have been a good idea (wasnt Roger sterile after that...) as so many of Roger's issues were with his own father. Take also into account that Roger always had pissing contests with other men, and he had to ALWAYS try and be the alpha, that sometimes men put their daughters on a pedestal and are harder on their sons, it could have been good.

I’m up to March 29, 1999.

At the Towers, the gang is celebrating Holly’s hearing and Phillip arrives and tells Reva/Josh that Ben has been kicked out and he’s taking over. He plans to bring everyone back on as consultants, but that surprises and upsets Reva/Josh because they assumed Phillip would give Lewis Oil back to them instead. Phillip says the company was tanked under their control and this is the best for everyone, which oddly Josh seems to shrug and agree, but Reva is pissed. Harley takes Phillip aside and tries to convince him to change his mind, but he won’t for now.

Jim and Beth have their date at the Towers, which is his first date since his wife died. It’s awkward and Jim uses a list to come up with conversation topics, which Beth calls out and laughs about. They dance after dinner and Harley/Phillip see them together and amongst themselves talk crap about them dating, which was rude. Cassie also sees Jim/Beth dancing and tells Reva she’s happy to see it and there is hope that she can also find happiness again.

India is back in town after visiting her daughter in Switzerland. Ross is excited to see her, but she tells him she can’t be with him because he still has feelings for Blake. He tries to assure her that he doesn’t and she seems to give him a chance and they dance at the Towers. Blake later interrupts their next dancing date to talk to Ross about Holly/Fletcher and India lays into her, telling her to stop running to Ross for every little issue because he wants absolutely nothing to do with her outside of being the boys’ mother.

Blake thanks Ben for supporting Holly, and he expects them to get back together, but she tells him that she can’t be with him because she can’t afford to have him in her life because he costs too much. He follows her home and surprises her and in true Ben fashion, he does that dangerous flirting thing and in true Blake fashion, she can’t resist and they sleep together. The next morning, they argue a bit about their feelings and Ben tries to play hard to get and leaves, which leaves Blake confused.

Danny visits Michelle and tells her he did something stupid that night (but doesn’t tell her about sleeping with Drew). He says ever since Michelle showed up in his life, his life has been turned upside down and he can’t continue. He kisses Michelle and tells her he’s releasing her. This scares her because she thinks Carmen will now come after her, but Danny says he won’t let that happen, but they can no longer be together and he leaves, leaving Michelle crying. The next day, Danny tells Carmen he’s no longer with Michelle and she revels in the idea that she can now kill her, but Danny says if she does, he’ll give up all the family secrets to the FBI, which makes Carmen stew. Michelle visits Drew and tells her about Danny setting her free, but she finds Danny’s wallet on the floor and asks why it’s there. Drew says she found it at the bar and then Jesse walks in and Michelle tells him she’s no longer with Danny. She eventually says she wants to get back with him, but Jesse is hesitant and says it’s not that easy to pretend like the Danny stuff never happened, and he doesn’t want to be some backup plan. She leaves and Drew gets in his ear that she would never have acted like Michelle did with him, but it backfires and just makes him realize he wants to be with Michelle. Michelle finds Danny and gives his wallet back, and then Jesse shows up and takes Michelle with him to dinner, leaving Danny and Drew both sad. They all end up running into each other again at Millennium and a cocky Danny offers to have them all hang out like friends, which makes Michelle uncomfortable. While Michelle is in the bathroom, Jesse comments on how Drew/Danny are spending more time together and Jesse then sees Danny’s wallet and recognizes it as the one he found in their apartment and realizes Danny and Drew were together and had sex. Michelle comes back asking what’s going on, so Drew pulls her aside and tells her she found out she was adopted, and because she was so distraught, she did something she regrets. Before she can say she slept with Danny, Jesse interrupts and takes Drew away. Michelle tells Danny about it and asks him what Drew was going to say, but he doesn’t tell her. He then tells her he never loved her and she should go. Michelle leaves with Jesse and Danny tears up alone and says to himself he does love her (aww, I think my first time I felt something here for these two).

Carmen fires her family attorney and stumbles across Ben at the Towers. They talk a bit about how they’ve heard of each other and she asks Ben to be her new attorney, in a flirtatious sort of way. He says no, because of the association with her reputation, and walks away, but it seems like something more might come of this. In fact, a few days later she stops by his office and they go back and forth as to why he should be their family lawyer. It falls a little flat for me, but Carmen is trying to play on his sense of intrigue and slight danger. He agrees to meet at their mansion the next day to further discuss it.

Susan is back to her scheming ways and wants to find a way to make Harley like her and give her more attention than her unborn child. She declines a shopping trip with Harley, saying now that her dad and Beth are dating, she’s really starting to like Beth and Beth already asked her on a shopping trip. That makes Harley feel a bit jealous and upset that Beth now seemingly has the upper-hand, but Susan is clearly manipulating the situation. Later, she pushes Jim to a lunch date with Beth and Lizzie, and while there, Susan has her first period and Beth helps her through it. Harley recruits Cassie to spy on Jim/Beth because she wants to break them up. They arrive at the lunch and Susan pulls Harley aside and tells her about her period, making Harley feel guilty about not being there for her. Susan says it’s ok, she couldn’t think of anyone better than Beth to help her through it, leaving Harley upset. Phillip overhears this and is suspect yet again of Susan.

Vanessa is now at Ed’s cabin and notices that she has a new email from Matt, but she talks herself out of reading it. Meanwhile, Bill was able to track Vanessa’s general location/town and Matt is searching for her. At a local gas station, the cashier confirms to Matt that she’s seen Vanessa recently, and even helped her get her car through the snow up to the Bauer cabin, which excites Matt because now he knows where to find her. Back at the cabin, Vanessa can’t help but to read the email and realizes the whole 8pm thing was a mistake and gets excited. She picks up Maureen and says they have to get back home to be with Matt. We then see Matt get to the cabin and climb over the fence, but slips and falls into the snow, which makes him go unconscious. Vanessa then walks to the car while holding Maureen, and walks right past Matt, not seeing him. They really like to torture the Matessa fans, gosh! Vanessa comes back because she forgot Maureen’s blanket, but on her way back to the car, she’s talking to Maureen and doesn’t hear a waking Matt quietly call out her name. She runs into the gas station clerk who tells her that a Matt was looking for her, so she goes back to the cabin in excitement, calling out Matt’s name, but he’s unconscious again. She tries calling his cell, but the phone lines are now down because of the snow so she starts searching outside and finally finds him! She’s somehow able to bring him inside and get blankets on him. She flashes back to their early relationship where he saved her in the cold cave and she vows to save him now in the same way. She gets him in the warm bed and he comes to, telling her it was all a misunderstanding with the time and she says she knows and loves him. They keep saying they love each other and Vanessa says they have so many more memories to make together (aww).

Blake meets with Fletcher and gives him a hard time, but says as long as he’s staying in SF now, she can learn to forgive him. But she then sees his plane ticket for that evening and gets angry that he is planning to leave Holly again. She lashes out at him and says he’s going to break her mom again and he doesn’t give a damn about Holly, but after she storms out, he says to himself that she has no idea how wrong she is about that. Meanwhile, Annie is now serving her community service at Holly’s psych facility (make that make sense haha). She tells Holly she owes her for giving her life back, but wants to know how everyone can forgive Holly but no one can forgive her. Annie then offers to call Fletcher to have him visit her so she can tell him never to leave again. After Annie leaves, Blake comes in and tells Holly that Fletcher is leaving, which Annie overhears. Holly becomes upset and Annie barges in and says she can’t let him go, which really upsets Blake knowing that Annie has been talking to her. After Annie and Blake leave, Holly starts talking to a picture of Meg and then Fletcher comes by and surprises her by bringing Meg. They visit and it’s very sweet to see them together again. Fletcher then surprises Holly and tells her that he and Meg are staying, which gives her motivation and hope to be better.

I guess they didn't need Hart, but how long could you keep playing Roger interfering in Blake's life? And what do you do with him when Blake (even temporarily) broke free of his influence?

I understand the reservations about Hart, as written, and is ultimately little more than a footnote in Springfield history. But (and I know it's sexist), I do think it's a little sad that, theoretically, there's no one carrying the name Thorpe in Springfield...even if Roger ended up having five grandchildren on the show.

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

I actually think that this COULD have been a good idea (wasnt Roger sterile after that...) as so many of Roger's issues were with his own father. Take also into account that Roger always had pissing contests with other men, and he had to ALWAYS try and be the alpha, that sometimes men put their daughters on a pedestal and are harder on their sons, it could have been good.

I also think Roger especially envied men who had close relationships with their children. He wanted that for himself, but he could never really achieve it. Even in his relationship with Blake, there's a foundational mistrust.

2 hours ago, DeeVee said:

There's also a new Sense & Sensibility in the works. 😠 To me, the Emma Thompson/Ang Lee version is close to perfect. We don't need another.

I love Austen, but ENOUGH. There are other books. And you can cast them properly and understand the characters and story the author wrote.

I think TBTB are more concerned with potential profitability over any artistic concerns. If if comes down to casting shiny bright lights of the day, or attempting to stay true to the source material, the source material is often tossed aside. Really, the casting for the new Wuthering Heights boggles my mind.

2 hours ago, DeeVee said:

Back to soaps, I feel those are the two key aspects: character (especially staying true to character history) and casting. When those things are right, it's the best.

Like for instance, I think it was a mistake giving Roger a sudden son. The whole thing about Roger, one of his best qualities (and one of his worst, because it became an obsession) was his love for his daughter. Bringing in another kid watered that down.

The insta-child not only watered down Roger and one of the principle motivations for his behavior, but Hart himself never really jelled. Did the writers even have a concrete definition of what type of person he was supposed to be, and what they intended to do with him? It seemed Hart changed direction with every new actor hired

2 hours ago, DeeVee said:

Not that they couldn't have still brought in Hart as a character, but did it matter that much that Roger was his father? He could have been a long-lost son of Mike's, for instance.

No, it ended up not mattering much at all, which was a failure on the writers' part. If they just had to introduce Hart through wonky revisionist history, the character should have had a serious, dramatic impact on established Sprinfieldians like Roger and Blake.

It was all such a waste.

NOW, an even worse blunder on the part of the show (producers, casting directors, writers) was introducing Doug Hutchinson as Sebastian Hulce, Roger's other son. What a disaster. The actor was woefully miscast; he came across as creepy and smarmy, and NOT in a good way. Hutchinson may have been perfectly fine in other roles (I don't know, I've never seen him in anything else), but his "je ne sais quoi" on TGL was such a major repellant. I wanted him gone immediately. I prayed every day he would be replaced by James Marsters, lol.

I knew Sebastian was not going to be long for this world.

6 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

I have never seen a version of WH which I was satisfied with; even the 1939 version with Laurence Olivier was truncated and stiff.

Many of William Wyler's films are that way. Impeccably filmed, yet mannered to the point of lacking verve.

10 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I prayed every day he would be replaced by James Marsters, lol.

James Marsters as Sebastian would've been WONDERFUL - not to mention, a real "get" for GL at a time when it needed one.

5 minutes ago, Khan said:

Many of William Wyler's films are that way. Impeccably filmed, yet mannered to the point of lacking verve.

No one--least of all me--will deny Laurence Olivier's and William Wyler's obvious talents--but that version of WH was just so stiff and mannered. The whole point of WH is that Heathcliff has the barely-contained sprit of an untamed beast, and neither he nor Catherine is meant to be aloof, reserved and able to control emotions.

10 minutes ago, Khan said:

James Marsters as Sebastian would've been WONDERFUL - not to mention, a real "get" for GL at a time when it needed one.

YES! With a drastic overhaul of the writing for the character, James Marsters would have been amazing as Sebastian. Instead, the character became an awkward failure who disappeared, never to be thought about again.

12 minutes ago, Khan said:

James Marsters as Sebastian would've been WONDERFUL - not to mention, a real "get" for GL at a time when it needed one.

Although look how stupidly they squandered...JOAN COLLINS, and we ended up Marj Dusay again. Personally, I found MJ breathy, campy and lacking in depth.

29 minutes ago, Khan said:

James Marsters as Sebastian would've been WONDERFUL - not to mention, a real "get" for GL at a time when it needed one.

He would have been great, although out of their price range.

15 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Although look how stupidly they squandered...JOAN COLLINS, and we ended up Marj Dusay again. Personally, I found MJ breathy, campy and lacking in depth.

Joan is someone else I think would have always been out of GL's price range beyond the limited time they had her. What I wish they'd done was set an arc for her and then done a proper recast down the line. That may have been the plan but then they, IIRC, didn't let her have the time she needed for her book tour, so she left. Even then it seemed like that stint was more open-ended than it should have been.

23 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

oan is someone else I think would have always been out of GL's price range beyond the limited time they had her. What I wish they'd done was set an arc for her and then done a proper recast down the line. That may have been the plan but then they, IIRC, didn't let her have the time she needed for her book tour, so she left. Even then it seemed like that stint was more open-ended than it should have been.

I think the JC time was that Rauch met her...and talked her into it to go out in a big bang (he was heading for retirement...) The push was to get GL to be "GL again" (i.e. island gone, stepping back from the mob) so it made sense to bring in this star to play a iconic character, but I don't think they thought it out more then that.

I think once the ratings didnt' pop and once Rauch left (he knew how to handle a dive like JC) both sides were like, okay were out. And then we were subjected to the return of Marj and CRAZY ass writing which ruined Alex.

The only storyline they had was that Gus was going to be Rita's son...which they changed to that weird nun thing with Conwest

17 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

I think the JC time was that Rauch met her...and talked her into it to go out in a big bang (he was heading for retirement...) The push was to get GL to be "GL again" (i.e. island gone, stepping back from the mob) so it made sense to bring in this star to play a iconic character, but I don't think they thought it out more then that.

I think once the ratings didnt' pop and once Rauch left (he knew how to handle a dive like JC) both sides were like, okay were out. And then we were subjected to the return of Marj and CRAZY ass writing which ruined Alex.

The only storyline they had was that Gus was going to be Rita's son...which they changed to that weird nun thing with Conwest

Yes...drug dealing, stalking Alex. It's a sign of how far gone morally GL was that she was still there to the end. Marj did her best, I guess, and I did like some of her work near GL's close.

I love Joan Collins, but they should have known she wasn't going to raise the ratings. FOX had already tried that with Pacific Palisades.