Y&R: Potpourri Thread

[bellcurve]

And again, this is something to be proud of? What kind of message is this sending?!

But he's not playing it as though he's uncomfortable. Bierdz is playing Phillip as truly bored with small town life...right out of the gate! He hasn't seen his family for, what, 20 years?! He sees the hurt and the pain in their eyes(especially Nina) and all he can do is just stand there or just emphasize certain words like "kid" and "child" and "different" in every sentence?

What the hell is she waiting for then? For EVERYONE to be okay with gay people? There are some people who will still be homophobic and there will be no "easing them into the story." Similar for black characters/pairings. There are still people in this country who are racist.

And as much as people bitched about Nuke not getting any action, you really expect me to believe that gay Y&R fans are happy about this?!

And don't give me that "loving" aspect crap. There was no love between Sharon and Billy, but it's perfectly normal to show their affair, show the two of them sleeping together, show the two of them making out in post-intercourse afterglow.

And if she wanted to "ease into it," then why is it okay to show Adam(doing his best Flip Wilson) taunting Ashley into a miscarriage, Ashley getting her checkup by a doctor who molests his patients, a psycho murdering animals and harming little children? I find that highly offensive, as I am sure viewers at home do as well.

EXACTLY! Maria told the press she wanted this story to be like every other story on the canvas. And you mean to tell me she couldn't show the bed being messed, couldn't show them kissing, couldn't show them cuddling or the both of them in bed together?

I could see if Nelson hyped up the story and said, "Oooh, oooh, Maria said it's gonna be like every other story on Y&R." But this is straight from the horse's mouth in an interview.

Silbermann is actually better than Thom Bierdz. At least he's not talking with a bunch of marbles in his mouth, "doing his best Rocky Balboa" voice, and puffing out his chest to seem more butch. That type of behavior is classic gay male insecurity.

Silbermann sucks because he's "just not that into" being gay for pay.

Exactly my point.

Even if she didn't want to show them making love, would a kiss have done much harm? Or even seeing the two of them in bed and one of them getting out of bed? The way the "post-coital" scene was written was extremely vague. How do we know if they even had sex at all? Maybe it was "show and tell"?

Then I guess you'll still be waiting for it to play out even after Phillip has been written out again.

And how is burning a fetus or poisoning a child "pushing the envelope"? As if we've never seen stuff like that before.

If you want true envelope pushing in daytime, just look at Stone/Robin on GH or Marty's Gang Rape on OLTL. Wendy Riche and Linda Gottlieb were prime examples of true envelope pushing.

Maria has the support of her husband and may still have the support of SONY. I don't understand why she would be so hesitant to do a "gay kiss" on Y&R. It the same kind blatant homophobia for which other soaps have been bashed. But since it's Y&R, it's okay for that to happen?

[brimike]

It's sending a message about what life was like for many gay men in 1987/1988.

You're looking at it through the eyes of someone in 2009, but it makes a lot of sense for many men twenty years ago.

Faking one's death wasn't common (that's obviously a soap opera conceit, and I agree, not a very good one), but I definitely know a handful of closeted gay men in my own personal life in their forties, who in their late teens/early twenties in the late 80's literally disappeared one night, cutting off all ties with their parents/wives/children to go start over someplace. And years later, felt incredible guilt over it. But they just didn't think coming out and discussing it at the time was an option back then. Now, years later, with so many more people comfortable with homosexuality, they try to re-open these doors and it creates a lot of pain for a lot of people.

[JackPeyton]

Philip faking his death because he was gay... given when he did it.. i understand it. i actually can see the logic in thinking that it would be a good story and a good way to bring him back.

the issues are overwhelming tho and obviously were not thought out.

1. TB cant act. Doesnt want to. The guy playing the main character cant act!! Thats a BIG issue.

2. Its insulting. Really, as much as i get it looking at the time frame (late 80's) its a very insulting story for me to watch. That may be personally, it may be a generation gap, but honestly... i think the only time i was more insulted as an audiance member was when JERk undid the murders on DAYS, but that was for a very diff reason. I also know im not the only one insulted by it.

3. The fallout is... well, from what i have heard/read/assume, not worth it.

4. A bigger retcon to retcon a retcon, yeah, thats freakin brilliant!

i could go on. I will say this tho, i have NO issue with adam and rafe not kissing like some seem too. i dont care if i see them kiss. hell i dont care if i ever see anyone on a soap kiss. kissing wont make the story for me, unless its a love story. and adam/rafe is NOT a love story. so they took the easy way out. they played it safe, so far, whatever. i dont care.

[bellcurve]

Fair enough, brimike.

But where is Phillip's guilt and pain? I don't see any of that in the writing or in Bierdz performance.

All I see is him regretting ever marrying Nina, instead of his regrets over leaving his family and his son.

Then great for you! Wonderful. Can I get you a cookie too? Because my harping on about the kiss has nothing to do with your feelings on it. But I assume you wanted a reply, so here goes:

The reason why I've place so much emphasis on the kissing and making love is because Maria said she would treat gay relationships and characters like every other on the show. And yet again, she proves she's made promises she can't deliver and never had any intention on delivering.

Not to mention the gay Y&R fanbase who was so up in arms about Chris Engen leaving because of said alleged gay kiss, that never even happened or was scrapped last minute.

It shouldn't matter that Adam/Rafe is not a "love story." Since when is an affair on a soap completely devoid of on-screen sex, making out, and post-coital bedroom scenes?

[brimike]

I completely agree, bellcurve. You'll hear no arugument from me on that one. This is an incredibly complex story involving a cowardly act from 20 years ago that should take years of redemption. Or at least it should be that complex story. In a perfect world.

I was just trying to explain the other side of it - but I agree the execution isn't living up to the potential.

ETA: So far, it's not living up to its potential. It's only been two episodes - and Jill and Kay don't even know he's gay yet. LOL! So I think it's a little soon to be saying it's not in the writing when there have only been 15 scenes over two episodes. We may have been TALKING about this on the board for two months - but there have only been two episodes of the story aired, and in one of them, nobody knew he was out of the closet.

[brimike]

Which is exactly why Rafe is important to the canvas, had they taken the time to build his character before this. Showing a young gay male so comfortable with his sexuality (again, in a perfect world) opposite one who ran away when he was that age (relatively speaking - I know Rafe is older than Phillip was when he "died") would be able to bridge that generation gap between viewers like you, and viewers who were in their 20's in the 80's.

ETA: I'm not even saying Rafe and Phillip should be a couple. But I think having scenes between them that aren't romantic, but about this very subject, would go a long way in helping bridge that gap in the gay audience, if that makes sense. Rafe would be in JP's shoes, insulted and thinking it's cowardly, and being the voice of this generation, while Phillip would have a different take. There are a lot of different opportunities for some powerful scenes here, is all I'm trying to say, I guess. Whether or not they jump on those opportunities remain to be seen, but in a perfect world, that's why Rafe holds value. Especially since he would be standing in judgment of Phillip's decisions while making really stupid decisions himself with Adam (as many gay men Rafe's age also do - myself included when I was Rafe's age - LOL!)

[MarkH]

So, this is brilliant. Speaking as a 40-something man (I'm three years younger than Bierdz, and I was about 2 years older than his character back in the day), I have to utterly and totally assert the truth of what Brimike is saying about being young-and-gay (especially if you didn't have confidence, or didn't have a supportive family -- and P3 had neither) back in the 80s. So, I have to say they are writing gospel truth if that is the backstory.

The contrast between a "modern gay" and an "older gay" (which is a little of what Brothers and Sisters has tried to do) is very cool. And if the two characters are ever in the same orbit, it would be even more interesting...because Rafe could help P3 claim his lost youth.

That said...and I think I'm probably feeling what Brimike tried to indicate with his bolded text...I'm only getting this "interesting" vibe from what Brimike wrote. I can't say I have perceived any of this on the screen.

But if this is where the story is headed, it will be interesting and innovative. "A tale of two cities gays".

[brimike]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, Mark. I'm not defending the story, or making excuses, or imagining things that aren't there. I'm saying flat out it's NOT there. But the odd thing is that I see the value in these characters and these mistakes they're making with their lives. Whether or not MAB and Co see that is a different story, but I see the potential and the opportunity underneath the plot points, and I really hope they leap on them as the story continues.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

WORLD to everything in this post, especially the last part!

[lmfan]

And frankly that sucks. I know MJ is the new flavor of the month and played by a good actress, but it sucks that a vet like Tracey Bregman is going to get dumped because MAB doesn't want to write for anyone but her favorites. I don't want some animal killing, child killing psycho as a long term character. She is fine for a short term role who maybe comes back to create havok once in awhile but I don't get why she should be around a long time while other long term faves are unceremoniously dumped.

[DRW50]

I know DAYS hasn't had a great track record with introducing Hortons over the past few years (Jeremy -- but then we know which headwriter was responsible for THAT), and I know DAYS can at times be too incestuous, but I like that they are still trying to bring new Hortons in and using Maggie to help introduce them to viewers. I wish Y&R could bring on some more Fosters, Brooks, and use the characters they currently have, like Jill, to establish them for viewers. I would much rather dump Eden and bring some characters in this way.

[DRW50]

I don't think Lauren is being pushed aside for MJ. MJ is also being used to prop the favorites (she causes problems for Sharon and Phyllis because they were becoming too unsympathetic when they were creating the problems).

It's stupid to phase Lauren out. Bringing Lauren back was one of the few brilliant moves from Y&R this decade.

I would get rid of Kevin, Jana (if they aren't going to write for her), Gloria, Jeffrey, Devon, Neil, Tyra, Victoria (if they aren't going to write for her), Nick (this character needs a long breather). If Mackenzie doesn't work out soon then I'd add her to the list. I also think Ashley and Abby are disposable.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

They aren't interested in writing for half of their cast and they seemingly have no sense as to when certain character are no longer working and need to be written out (like Gloria, Jeffrey, Devon, Tyra, Cane, etc).

MAB said a few months ago that the summer would bring about characters in front-burner storylines that haven't been used a lot in a while. Other than perhaps Daniel, that isn't true at all. Once again, ANOTHER empty promise from Queen Maria Arena Bell.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

So, two more BIG empty promises from Queen Marie Antoinette, I mean Maria Arena Bell.

When she first started, she said she was going to try to rid the show of its heavy criminal emphasis, something Latham LOVED a lot. Well, it's only gotten worse with Maria there.

She also said a few months ago that this summer would bring about characters that haven't been used a lot being featured in front-burner storylines. Other than perhaps Daniel this hasn't been true at all. She's and her henchmen are still using the same characters repeatedly that have hogged up airtime since the start of her tenure there.

As bellcurve wisely put it...

Maria: Empty Promises, Poor Storytelling.

[lmfan]

Oh please. A breather is off the screen for a few weeks. A breather is being support rather than leading story. A breather is not being off the canvas for two months at a time and being ignored in scenes you should be used for. It's not like Michael and Lauren led story. I could see people needing a nice long breather from Gloria and now Kevin, but they are wasting two good popular veteran actors in CLB and TEB. As far as recurring, other actors are recurring and still get used and TEB has been recurring since 2001 and has never been ignored as she has under this regime. She is Lauren "friggen" Fenmore. That should mean something, especially to a writer who claims to respect the history of this show.

As for Victor, he fed his wife's lover rats. He did not burn a fetus after causing a miscarriage, poke his eyes with chemicals, allow a woman to believe she is carrying a baby while setting her up with a molestor for her OB/GYN. Victor also didn't shove a peanut butter cookie in his mouth, lick his lips and then give a little girl a big kiss or kill family pets. Deep down, MJ/Patty is a loon. If they showed her having some remorse maybe I could see her being a misunderstood character but she gets a glow in her eyes when she talks of hurting Summer to get those bitches and talks to a cat she killed. Her saying that she didn't mean for Summer to get hurt rings hollow.

I know we are in the episode discussion thread and getting a bit away from the show.