Y&R Let Eva Marcille be free

[ChitHappens]

Wow! This is an amazing post! I absolutely love it and believe in every word you wrote. However, Neil branching out will never be written

ANDREA

[JSROCKS]

Thanks for your reply.

I don't know if I would equate Neil to Clarence Thomas (the RL SCJ) only because there are times when Neil is "given" something to say while Thomas has been mute since his appointment. Yes Neil is a token, but I don't think he has allowed himself to think that he is. He wants to believe that Victor has taken him into his (Victors) confidence, even though he knows better. He is in deep denial.

I've never thought of Kristoff St. John as an amazing actor (I find him mediocre) but rather viewed him as a prop for Victoria Rowell's Dru. ITA, Dru did - over time- became that strong, take charge, in your face woman that eventually clashed with Stanford educated, corporate ladder climbing Neil. I think TPTB wanted to portray them as the AA counterparts to Victors' children and their respective spouses, but only scans a house/car and other trappings of middle classdom. How rediculous is it that Neil has an airplane and owns a night club but still lives in a small apartment?? Neil has become the head of the Winters family by default---because he is the only one left. Lily is not her mothers' daugther and I think that's the point. The Winters' family is in deep need of a matriarch or patriarch or at least someone they all can relate to and the sooner they get that person the better off they'll be.

There were so many places TPTB could have taken Neil post Dru, but to have him become this instant adulterer was not one of them. The Tyra s/l would have played out much better if Olivia would have continued down the road of being that meddlesome sister-in-law who's still lusting after her sisters' husband.

[rhythmchyc]

They're white writers writing for Black characters on a medium that's not concerned with true social storytelling anymore. Of course Neil is at the center of the Winters family. Of course they'd reintroduce Olivia into the fold. Of course Lily, the only Black character integrated with the white cast regularly, is as vanilla as her daddy. They're either ignorant of what Black people are, afraid of writing something real, unable to write something real out of fear of offending the Black community, or just plain lazy. Or a melange of all of these things. So, of course, all the major Black players are as vanilla and unoffensive as possible.

Either way, as Andrea said, but applying it to the entire Black cast, they're never gonna do it.

And Dru, Malcolm, other Black characters who were the driving engines to just about all the storylines, became one-note after a while, always causing a ruckus. How about we have a Black character who does something desperate because they were trying to protect someone, like Marcy on OLTL? Something totally in character but not inherent in their character.

No more yin and yangs. Let's get people dammit.

[miajere]

AS much as disagree with neil Winters- he's a must. I don't think this part of the show would remain true if they didn't show what comes with the rest of the "American Dream" that black America is out to achieve. It's interesting- Neil didn't go start his own company with what he understood and got his degree in- he starts a night club. Nihilism indeed! Of course he's going to fall into temptation and lose sight of what's important- his obsession with his daughter's relationships, alcohol, women... His only goal in life, and the only goal the writer's have for him, is to exist! But how true is that to life? SO much of black middle class America is told to get ahead, get money, keep quiet, and exist.

They should never apply the strength of Dru to the entire AA cast- it would be dishonest. What is important is that they continue to show the balance that takes place in these circumstances. What is dishonest is the way they display his success, his achievements, because he has none outside owning his club. Essentially every middle class AA is a Neil and a Dru- and will spend their life in that ongoing struggle.

I can't speak of Lilly, because the writers won't allow her to be organic- they focus too much on her or too little. She's not afraid of being black, she's afraid of being hated! There's a distinction. She needs that one character- that "Jill-like" character- that reminds her constantly who's daughter she really is. Someone to hate her for it. We were hoping for Phylis, but I think that gets much too controversial for Y&R.

Funny thing is, I don't think the writers or the actors realize their representation on the show, or at least the only one who did was pushed off a cliff. Perhaps, it is more honest this way. But if many middle class AAs live their lives as how white America perceives them, and are constantly working to fight off stereotypes, how interesting is it that this is reflected in how the conservative white America views AA. I don't think there's an AA middle class professional that can't relate.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the dominate liberal view is any better- at many times it is worst because it maintains the "color blind" approach to the social argument, and denies even seeing these characters- which is unacceptable for soaps. Hello OLTL. But it's interesting to see what happens.

[Khan]

Why are we laying this exclusively at the feet of the writers? I tend to believe the network and/or SONY is just as culpable here.

Ironically, most of the complaints lodged (here, and elsewhere) against the Black characters on Y&R are almost exactly the same things I'd say about the non-Black characters. To me, all of Y&R's characters, save for Victor, Kay and Jill, suffer from the same, crippling problem; they're all too bourgeoisie (sp?). No humor, no idiosyncrasies, no sense of ethnic or socioeconomic identity whatsoever.

[MarkH]

Are you watching? I think you are, right?

No humor? No idiosyncracies? Phyllis? Michael? Kevin? Daniel? Amber? Jana? Noah? Nikki? Esther? Gloria? Jeff? It's a bloody laugh riot with some of 'em. Maybe not this week, but generally.

I'd say you're right about ethnic identity...but then we have Murphy and (new recurring...so not likely to stick around) Pearl and Joe.

There is also a brewing hint of a class war with Estella. As her nephew, and former "scholarship student", Rafe might play into that.

Now, I'm not claiming this is OLTL's "Angel Square". I actually affirm the truth of much of what you say.

For all my critiques of Jack Smith, and others' critiques of LML, they did good work to bring in some character diversity. What I'd also say is that even once-staid characters, like Nick, now occasionally break loose (when story permits) to show some personality and humor. Like when Nick simply "flashed" his abs at Phyllis and took a picture of them for her to remember him by (ironically, he "died" later that day)...simply for kicks and giggles.

It makes me wonder how many of the critiques here, in the Bell thread, and elsewhere are from people who watched during the Bell era...and haven't really paid so much attention since then. Even during the Bell era, there were repeated attempts to at least socioeconomically diversify (Fosters, Williams, Stevens)...but I acknowledge that "strong characters" were never really part of that mix (unless you count Jill, Dorothy and Wayne--but the latter two were more of a Heehaw-style parody).

[Khan]

When I can stomach it, yes.

Okay. I'll give you a pass on Phyllis, Michael (although, it's been a long, long time since we saw the "real" Michael Baldwin), Kevin, Amber, Jana, Esther, Glo-Glo and Jeffy Boy. But the rest of them? Nikki? The only idiosyncracy she has is her inability to use her lower vocal register.

[MarkH]

Oh no, really, Nikki can be a laugh riot.

She gets this 'I smell the stink of Limburger cheese' look when she gets in snobby mode. We've seen it mostly with Sharon. (Think of when Sharon and Nikki tramped through the sewers of Genoa City, looking for Cameron's dead body with Wartman-the-anal-rapist-from-prison). I realize Jack Smith gets credit for that piece of brilliance.

When Nikki gets in snob mode, she is an Enid-Nelson style delight to behold. Especially because we know her background: Promiscuous working class girl who took stints as a hooker (unbeknownst to her), cultist, and stripper. Her only claim to fame is marrying well.

So, when Nikki gets arch--she is a laugh riot.

Actually, I have to add Bergman's Jack Abbott to the list too. He's more of a James-Thurber style quipster, but when he lets 'em roll (as he does with Gloria, Jill, Victor, Adam, sometimes Ashley, sometimes Nikki, Phyllis), he is hilarious-while-eviscerating.

Truly, there is more humor and personality here than you might think. It's just not constant...it's like "low salt" instead of "heavy salt". If you want "heavy salt", there's always Spinelli on GH.

[Cat]

DC's Jamey wrote this when reviewing Monday's US epiosde:

http://www.daytimeconfidential.com/2009/04...t-episode-of-yr

[Khan]

Well, Jamey, if you are out there and reading this? On behalf of just myself, a Black folk, thank you, and God bless you.

I cannot recall the exact title, but there was/is a book I read once in high school about '80's television; and according to that book, the number-one primetime show among Blacks during one season was not "The Cosby Show" or "A Different World", but KNOTS LANDING, which happened to be my favorite show when I was in sixth grade; and which featured probably even less African-American characters in their fourteen years on the air than Y&R has featured in their thirty-six.

The fact of the matter is, most Blacks don't give a s**t whether or not we are represented in any given show. We really don't. We just want to be entertained like everyone else.

[rhythmchyc]

All of this nuance MarkH listed is lacking in the Winters family, which is why their adoption/ love triangle story didn't work.

There's been an utter shutdown of their history as well. There's absolutely no connection. Why when Lily mentioned her custody battle on Monday, she didn't even say Malcolm's name? It's like a slap in the face to what Bill Bell created: introducing all these characters to try to replace a strong Black historical base on Y&R without establishing their existence, their significance.

This is why the story with K and Jill was so effective. Why even recasts Billy and an unknown, Kate/Chloe, worked so well. The audience was even supplied with various flashbacks to further develop Chloe's character. Do we get flashbacks for Karen? Tyra? No way. And this has nothing to do with being Black and all to do with being people.

Neil can be all white-bred and Devon can be self-righteous and Lily can be a slice of toast. But they're only shadows of them. They're not a blip on the radar.

[MarkH]

Don't you think if we had an African American co-HW, that could make a difference? I realize one shouldn't need such a person...but if one could get a TPTB of color?

I'm thinking about the alleged introduction of a

character. It seems not coincidental to me that this is timed with the introduction of an

. At the very least, they can pick his brain about personal experiences.

So, too, maybe there would be more heart and soul in the characters of color if the people writing them saw them as real people, and wrote more authentically. Whether it is Jamey Giddens "I was more like Noah" or whatever...the background is irrelevant...it's just that a writer writing for someone "like themselves" might help increase the richness of the characterization.

Am I misguided?

[ChitHappens]

Of course, I agree with Jamey!

When I watch YR, which is about 2.5 times a week (depends on who's playing Tennis on any given day), the only story I'd rather not watch is anything remotely related to the Winters. As a black person, this is disturbing because this current bad story is no fluke. It's simply the way it is. The weakest actors are telling us the most god aweful stories (and I agree with whomever said that Kristoff is not an amazing actor because he is anything but. Nia Peeples trampled all over him the other day).

And Khan, I too would like to be entertained, but I also want to be entertained by someone who looks like me, and not just in a 1/2 hr comedy.

ANDREA

[bellcurve]

Can I, like, double word this?! Please?!

[ChitHappens]

If the goal was to have decent stories for black character, it would not matter what color the skin of the writer; so I maintain that is not the goal. A writer can write for anyone because that is what they do. All the things that are written for white characters could easily be written for black characters if TIIC wanted it.

ANDREA