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Loving/The City Discussion Thread


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Thanks so much for that link! It's hard to find Loving on youtube (particularly cuz typing in Loving and Soap Opera brings up tons of clips from other soaps) so I never caught that! SO interesting to see a different AVa than I'm used to--shame there are no end credits with the writers

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Was Agnes Nixon writing in Fall 1986? I know Marland was out mid 85... THe show already feels quite diff form that firs tyear episode.

I always LOVED the Alden mansion set. Was that when the great Celeste Holm (from Oklahoma on Broadway etc etc) was playing the matriarch, Isabelle? I can't recognize her or not lol) *edit* my bad, that was the equally great AUgust Dabney, who i think returned to the role later on--man for a ten year long soap Loving had a LOT of recasts--I AM pretty sure that the Curtis Alden at the time was playe dby the GREAT Broadway actor Burke Moses -- also known for being in ATWT. Burke is prob best known for being the first stage Gaston in Beauty and the Beast but he's also done a lot of Sondheim musicals the Kiss me Kate revival, etc

Roya as Ava certainly was even MORE like an Erica Kane clone than Lisa Peluso--I see why many found it beyond obvious when AGnes created the role.

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Celeste Holm was finishing up a gig on Falcon Crest around this time and I don't think she joined Loving til around 1992.

I'm not sure who's playing Isabelle in this episode but it's definitely not the same actress from the pilot.

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Apparantly Meg Mundy played it first for the pilot (and maybe some episodes) then Augusta Dabney from 83-91 and she returned 94-95, with inbetween Celeste playing from 91-92 and Pat Barry from 93-94

It's a treat to see ANY Loving episodes from the 80s--I didn't knwo the show or ever find old eps from before 91. I hope some more eps show up online. All I've seen are the pilot film, that 1984 episode, and this one

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I thought Linden Ashby was playing Curtis in this episode?

I think Marland was out in 1984. I have a book published from summer of 1984 talking about the beginning of the Jonathan Maitland storyline which Nixon penned. This 1986 episode came off as a Ralph Ellis episode based on the Spider plotline.

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You're right it was Linden (God I suck at recognizing who played what in Loving lol)... I think I liked him more than th eoriginal Curtis (who I believe came back in 94 when AGnes Nixon wrote the bizarre story of Dante (played by the guy who plays Carlo Hesser) and his "pet" who was Curtis in a cage. Loved it

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I thought Linden Ashby was playing Curtis in this episode?

I think Marland was out in 1984. I have a book published from summer of 1984 talking about the beginning of the Jonathan Maitland storyline which Nixon penned. This 1986 episode came off as a Ralph Ellis episode based on the Spider plotline.

When was Ellis headwriter? Yeah Marland apparantly lasted just under a year. I 'd love to see some of that Maitland story--surely the first time Agnes dealt with the supernatural.

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re: Curtis in the cage

SOD listed Millee Taggert as sick in late October/early November 1993 and said Agnes Nixon was taking over immediately. Taggert and company had made a big deal of the Curtis/Tess/Buck triangle in Kuwait that Dante needed to come in to finish the storyline. My assumption is Nixon was forced to pen the Dante stuff as that was what was in place when she came in. Dante didn't go over well with the audience. A Middle Eastern villain was not politically correct, which is why Dante was written out in March 1994 as having died after pairing up with Egypt Jones.

I do believe though that it was Nixon's decision to bring back Curtis in December 1993 in the form of Christopher Marcantel (who did a lot of soap work in the 1980s). After two failed recasts earlier in the year, Curtis left town after setting Pins on fire with Louie (played by the recast since Bernard Barrows died unexpectedly in August 1993) inside. The series representatives said they were not recasting Curtis, who was a pretty pivotal character.

I thought I had read Ellis was the one behind all the gangster plotlines in the mid 1980s which is why I assumed Ellis was the one writing this episode.

Interesting that Marland was still writing the show in November 1984. I know in the soap book i have from earlier in the year Doug Donovan had just married Edy Lester, a woman with a mysterious connection to Jonathan Maitland. I just assumed this meant that Nixon was writing at the time.

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Well I did read in the 87 Schemering encyclopedia that the Jonathan Maitland character started off as apparantly very interesting and then suddenly went the campy devil route, so... Ellis prob did write the ep--it was just that Ava seemed SOO early Erica in it that I thought it was AGnes--I heard that it was under her breif return after Marland that she really became an Erica clone.

I was always confused as to why Curtis burned down pins--I didn't get to watch everyday back then so... Still I really liked the whole Curtis in a cage bit--it was weird but was played well. I did love Egypt's return (even if she also was very Pine Valley--specifically Lyman's original Opal)

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Roya's Ava was like they put Erica Kane and Tina Lord DNA in a test tube and shook it up. As far as "definitive", I think we have a Robin Strasser/Victoria Wyndham kinda thing going on.

All My Isabelles, I remember my mom quipping about how they'd repainted that portrait damn near four times.

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I liked what I've read of Agnes Nixon's 1994 return. Egypt was well intergrated and set off the well loved Ava goes to heaven storyline. I like how Egypt faked her death and then later blackmailed Buck to get her out of town, supposedly they'd slept together in the past.

I believe Curtis burned down PINS for the insurance or out of revenge. Fall 1993 was a weird time with stories starting and ending rather quickly and changing midcourse. I seem to recall within a month Gwyn got pregnant, she ran off to Vegas with Buck, and then miscarried with Clay by her side.

I had heard many liked Roya's Ava better and I think you have the Strasser/Wyndham comparison right on. In the later years, Ava wasn't as money hungry and needy as she had been, though it was hinted at in two storylines (the pairing of Ava and Leo and later the outcome of the Cradle Foundation storyline). Peluso's Ava seems rather mellow.

Most of the Aldens ended recast at some point. Had the show continued past 1995 I'm sure Cooper #2 would have arrived on the scene.

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Most people liked that the Ava in Heaven storyline hinted at what was suppose to come in the next few months. Uncle Harry gave Ava several prophecies:

- Someone would return (Cabot's return from the grave)

- Someone would die (Janie Sinclaire, but I suspect the original victim was going to be Dinahlee)

- Someone would come into their own (Ava & Kate getting possession of Alden Enterprises).

When did Agnes Nixon's work stop and Laurie McCarthy and Addie Walsh's work begin? July 1994 was awesome, but by late August things were already getting murky and appeared to be rewritten.

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