DeliaIrisFan

Thanks for sharing all this info about the Children of the Earth story - it's fascinating. As it happens, I've been watching the Margo Dorn murder mystery and there was an episode in which Deborah confided in someone (Derek? Steve?) that she suspected Eliot partly because of their shared history with the cult, which seemed completely out of left field from everything I'd seen of both characters up until then. It makes more sense that she was undercover. If the mandate from ABC/P&G was to end the story ASAP, I can't help but wonder why they would go to the trouble of changing who the cult leader was? And, in any event, why keep Eliot around as a reminder? It is telling that the "abrupt" ending in the wake of a real PR mess sounds more thoughtful than the way modern soaps have been dropping characters and stories left and right for decades, presumably just based on of focus groups or whatever.

Both Ed/Lillian and John/Felicia have been mentioned (separately) in this thread. Given the common denominator of JFP, I can't help but connect the two. Both were fairly similar in terms of plot and the obvious aim of restoring an attractive, middle-aged actor to leading man status, and both perhaps inadvertently gave the actresses playing the wronged wives Emmy-winning material. But I don't think JFP ever planned to repeat Maureen's death and fire Anna Holbrook, did she? In fact, Holbrook was one of the few actresses in their mid 30s-40s on contract at AW at the time whose name I have never seen mentioned in the rumors about those focus groups that inspired Frankie's death. It almost seemed like JFP, in her own way, genuinely learned at least something from her mistake at GL. If Ed's affair and the revelation had played out as they did but Maureen lived to kick Ed to the curb and start a new life a la Sharlene, the whole thing probably would have been a big success. Alas, the AW story had subpar writing from the start, and by that point the industry was radically transformed, so Holbrook was written out within months of JFP's exit anyway. Anyway, in terms of best-written affairs, I would love to see kinescopes or whatever of the story on Where the Heart Is with James Palmer's character having an affair and meeting his mistress at an Irish bar, which supposedly inspired head writers Claire Labine and Paul Avila Mayer to create Ryan's Hope. So much soap opera history there. Relatedly, I'd happily watch any Where the Heart Is, which by all accounts dominated this category throughout its brief run.

Thanks for the tag. I don't disagree about the word cloud, although I cannot deny that I associate the cliches in the upper and lower right corners more so with RH than with any other soap, for better or worse: Delia's "blindness" being the better, and Terry the Tumor being somewhat worse. I'm so glad Helen Gallagher and Michael Levin are still with us and up for it; I have no doubt sure we'll get an earful from them both, and I am here for it. Catherine Hicks was always my favorite Faith by a mile, and I don't know that she's spoken about RH in decades. I'm not sure Judith Chapman has, either, and I'm curious what she'll remember/say on the record about the original plans for her character/family and how that changed. And, of course, it's always a pleasure always to hear from the others—the keepers of the flame, as it were.

Wow, yeah it does seem to be one right after the other. I too immediately thought of his GL stint, and how soon this is after Jerry ver Dorn - I may watch some vintage Ross and Leo squaring off soon.

I was very sorry to hear about Michael Malone. I never got to see his first stint at OLTL in real time, but the rich and deeply personal remembrances that folks have posted demonstrate it was something special. Vee's side note about Claire Labine's efforts at OLTL reminded me that was the exact same time Malone was hired at AW, 25 years ago. Having been an AW fan as a kid and drifted away in the year or so before that, I remember being excited to read about Malone's experience, and looking forward to seeing what he would do with the show. By all rights, if those two formidable writers had been left alone to tell their own stories at their own pace, that should have been an historic time for both shows. I don't doubt that there still would have been some fans of each who didn't care for the material at all. That might well have included me when it came to Malone's AW if he'd succeeded in remaking it to the extent he did OLTL in a way that wasn't what I expected AW to be. Although, based on Victoria Wyndham's 25th anniversary episode, I suspect there would have been enough to hold my interest. If things had gone differently behind the scenes at AW and/or OLTL back in 1997, it also could have been so much fun to experience that soap era with access to the internet, and the ability to have meaningful discussions in real time about where stories might be going (well, it was still the internet, but at least there was no Facebook or Twitter). Alas.

I remember I enjoyed her rapport with Charles Keating. Maggie was, at least initially, a good choice to be on Team Carl/Rachel when most of the family was opposed, since she had been so young/out of the country during most of his evil deeds. Maggie and Tomas weren't bad for a teen couple. That triangle with Angela was horrid, though. Then, once that finally ended, they recast Maggie and, yeah, the character became unrecognizable in every sense. Both of Robyn's replacements had success afterward so in hindsight it wasn't even their fault. If they wanted to take Maggie in that direction and make it plausible, it could have been interesting if they tied it to Maggie's aforementioned alliance with Carl. He could have encouraged her behavior, which could have caused friction between him and Rachel, etc.

So sad about Anne Heche. I was a year or so late for her original AW run, but I'm so glad I got to watch most all of it on SoapNet. Those clips above are great. I have no words. And the news about RGW...I had no idea she was ill, but I always had a soft spot for her characterization of Maggie, if not the stories (the writing for the character got so much worse after she left).

Speaking of the Locher Room, that was a lovely tribute to John Gabriel as well. I was finally able to finish it on a rainy Sunday afternoon. Several of the guests commented on having had few scenes with him, but of course once I thought about it, I remembered Nancy Addison and Diana van der Vlis have both been gone 20 years or so. Seneca's story with Jill did overlap with both Delia and Rae's relationships with Frank. To Ilene Kristen's point about Seneca being too smart to get involved with Delia, he was too smart even to work with Delia or Rae to keep Frank and Jill apart, whatever he may have worked solo to do. There were some interesting Rae/Seneca scenes post-Kimberly that made it onto YouTube, fighting over Seneca and Kim's baby. I recall one really good one even made it into the St. Patrick's Day marathon that SoapNet would air every year. That was a nice story about JG reaching out to LS after she was let go. For some reason, I thought Rae and Seneca were both written out around the same time—right after Labine and Mayer's departure—but I guess Seneca stayed on for a while as the generic doctor? I can't imagine him interacting with any of the new characters from the mid-'80s.

I mean, Muenker appeared on a ton of soaps, including on several as different characters in different eras. I'm sure she has a ton of stories to tell if she wants to go there. Wasn't it her Marianne on AW who had the abortion story (that was somehow tied to Harding Lemay's plan to have the character's brother come out, which the network vetoed)? As far as RH, Muenker was there for the waning Kirkland era, right: after Catsy, Hollis, et al had been written out, while Leigh was being introduced? I'm not sure she ever shared a scene with Haskell or Jones. I doubt she'll have much to say about a relatively brief role, almost 40 years later. I would be curious to hear (what if anything she knows/remembers about) why they recast the role, only to write the character out altogether a few months later. Was that always the plan? Did Mary Page Keller want to leave (I don't believe she started on AW until a little later) or were they "taking the character in a new direction"? And, if so, was that intended direction how Muenker ended up being used: as someone for Leigh to talk to for a few months when she didn't know any other characters, and a short-term spoiler for Pat and Faith? At least, that's all I remember of her from what's available on YT.

I think Labine probably enjoyed writing for the adult versions of the children of the characters who were front and center in the show's early years. She probably would have never aged them so drastically herself, but once it was done she seemed to have fun with it and got to incorporate some of the characteristics/hangups she presumably always assumed they'd have because of who their parents were. Semi related to the issues with Rae/Kim and Michael and their lack of connection to the rest of the canvas, I think the introduction of a character like Dakota was both too late and a wasted opportunity to connect the Ryans to the types of characters the network wanted on all their soaps in the '80s. (It was also dreadfully written from what I've seen and I can't for the life of me understand why they had to tack on the amnesia cliche too, but that's neither here nor there.) Playing the long-lost younger Ryan son card a few years earlier and having him been raised by a wealthy family like the Kirklands would have instantly grafted them onto the show, and they could have mixed it up with characters like Kim/Rae.

Thanks for the tag - looking forward to reading it.

Wow, 25 years...I feel old. PC occupies a weird place in my heart. I was rooting for the Labine GH spinoff, but GH was still watchable when the decision was made and I was totally on board for a Lucy-centered spinoff. Unfortunately, there were clearly not enough closeted, unpopular teens with nothing better to do in their free time that summer than watch an extra half hour of GH. Even I'd stopped watching GH by the time PC actually premiered, it had gotten so bad...and I gave PC a few weeks at most. The late '90s on ABC soaps was such a fascinating moment in hindsight (at the time it was mostly frustrating), and PC was case in point. So many resources available: for primetime episodes, relatively high-quality marketing, casting. And the existing vet cast who could be strategically utilized after not getting much airtime for a while were nothing to sneeze at either. But even when those budget windfalls got allocated for good things, nobody who knew what they were doing was ever empowered long enough for all that money to pay off. PC had a good cast and some talented people behind the scenes. My teenage self would never have admitted the latter, but the Cullitons and Riche probably had good ideas and clearly were trying their best. In hindsight, they were clearly too overworked churning out 1.5 hours of TV a day to come up with a long-term vision, let alone fight for it. And hey, PC was the last half-hour soap to premiere, and the last soap to premiere, period, that wasn't Passions (of course, you couldn't make up the fact that PC ultimately went off the air plagiarizing Passions if you were trying to come up with a really esoteric parody of soaps at the turn of the millennium).

I've often wondered what the deal was with RH and the Emmys as the '80s wore on. I know the show was in a bad way for quite a bit of the decade, but still. Did RH not have affiliate clearance in area(s) where a critical mass of people in the industry lived after the timeslot change? A part of me wonders if the last few acting nods were not entirely based on work on the show and/or during the eligibility period. Helen Gallagher and Bernie Barrow likely had accumulated some goodwill, and I would think there may have been buzz that they were getting material again and making the most of it - deservedly. It's nice that Helen won the show's last Emmy, anyway. And I wonder if Tichina Arnold and/or Grant Show were more well-known for their other work by the time awards season came around. I'm not saying the show deserved to continue its '70s Emmy streak, but there were quality periods/performances, and even Claire Labine's return later in the decade with really solid material didn't make a difference. I suppose by then Santa Barbara had displaced RH in the hearts of writing Emmy voters as the "little soap that could," but was there no room even for a nostalgic nomination one year or another? Especially after Labine/Mayer's back-to-back wins for their briefer return earlier in the decade. On a related note, I wonder what would have happened if the awards ceremony had aired in 1984, when Pat Falken Smith was head writer but Labine/Mayer had been at the helm for most(?) of the eligibility period. Would they all have attempted to take the stage (speaking of SB)?

Wow...I had been away, and my news feed was inundated with other things, and the algorithms probably don't even know at this point that I have/had an interest in soaps. I've felt sad about the other daytime vets we've lost in recent months, some of whom I only came to fully appreciate more recently thanks to that immortalizing YouTube. But I actually do have decades' worth of history with Jerry ver Dorn as a soap patriarch, so this is more personal. He was a great actor, for sure, and he and that cohort he worked with at GL most consistently for all those years really elevated the genre; Maeve K's quote, which I could hear her reading in my head, really reminded me of that. I had watched OLTL on and off by the time JvD came on, and in hindsight I don't understand the approach they took with the Clint recast. Especially since it seemed like all Clint had to do was overcome his homophobia (although of course TPTB would have had to overcome their own) and be back on track to being the kind of compassionate, wise tentpole character that Jerry had played for 25 years or so, which I'd assumed was what they hired him for. Maybe there was a payoff to Clint's turn to the dark side that I missed during one of my off periods. In any event, as always JvD did everything he could with the material, and at least he got to be a part of one long-running soap's finale. On a more personal note, there was a time in the '90s when my closeted adolescent self thought Ross as well as Roger and Ed were all so handsome—and I sort of envied Blake, at least as far as having them all in her life in different, bizarre ways. (Plus Alan-Michael on the side, and a mother as fabulous as Holly to fight/conspire with.) A big part of me still does. I know that is weird to say right now, but going by some of the bawdy anecdotes, I can only hope Jerry wouldn't take offense.

Well, that was terribly produced and scripted, but I do miss when soaps mattered enough for anyone to bother with such promotional vehicles.

Speaking of McTavish, I finally finished watching all that's available online from Natalie in the well to the resolution of Will's murder for the first time. Given everything McTavish subsequently did in her career, it's fascinating to watch what I believe were the first characters she officially created: Angelique, Galen, Gloria, and Stephen Hamill. I have to imagine at least three of them did not work out at all as planned. I actually wonder if Gloria, the only one who ended up lasting, was even intended to: I kind of got the vibe early on that she was originally going to be the victim of a less far-reaching whodunit, maybe limited to the Cortlandts, and they changed it to Will when the actor left. In any event, I was surprised by how much I liked Gloria. The actress/character were wasted in later years in such unfortunate stories, from what I saw—somehow I still remember even her scenes from the ads for that Maria/Erica baby switch story, when I wasn't watching the show, were like nails on a chalkboard—but she was about the most riveting part of the show for a good month or two after everyone discovered Natalie was alive. And I'll be damned if I didn't feel for Gloria in the rape story, manipulative and problematic as it clearly was. With Angelique I was actually expecting the worst, given the general concept and how short-lived I knew she would be, but surprisingly I thought she had her moments. (Sometimes perhaps unintentionally hilariously, like when Angelique still couldn't speak and was just watching all the teeth-gnashing at WildWind after she was wheeled into the party, but I'm not sure what more any performer could have done with that.) I assume Angelique was meant to last longer and they cut their losses, but I also suspect the triangle they were setting up with Dimitri and Erica when the uploads cut off was originally intended for Dimitri and Natalie. Am I wrong, or did Angelique just vanish for weeks after her intro, while Natalie dropped Dimitri with barely a second glance, and Dimitri showed no inclination of wanting to reconcile with Angelique at that point? Did Kate Collins announce she was leaving right then? As for Galen and Stephen, I am guessing they were meant to be long-term romantic leads? They weren't terrible, and I'm not 100% sure if Stephen/Dixie was cut short more to make way for Tad's return than for any other reason, but it foreshadowed McTavish's challenges making "good" characters compelling/dynamic. I had heard of Galen but had no idea she was actually recast in such a brief time period, so I was as surprised as most viewers would have been 30 years ago, but the character still didn't take. To be fair, I picked these four characters even though I know McTavish must have had a major hand in creating Dimitri, and I actually think Lucas Barnes—Terrence's father—pre-dated Angelique by a day or so. But Broderick and Washam were still credited above McTavish in Dimitri's first episodes, and I really doubt Lucas was intended to stay on the show longer than he did, or move beyond a supporting role. (Although if the actor were interested, they absolutely should have kept him around and given him more to do!)

Yeah, honestly, it wouldn't surprise me that much if they were floating some of the same names as potential Iris and Vicky recasts.

Ah, so ~ 1 week before CD's last episode aired. I love how the question/possible responses were phrased as though the writers/casting director still had months to plan next steps. But, that would have been my next question—which other actresses were they teasing? Even if write-ins were an/the only option, Kate Collins at least looked/comported herself someone like Iris as portrayed by CD; and she had been on a popular soap just a few years before. KC may have just won a plurality among the sliver of respondents who chose that (younger recast) option, which could have been due to name recognition more than anything else. I'm not sure the majority of her fans at that time would have even read a soap mag poll about AW all the way through.

Wow...what was the date on that issue? I'm stunned that SOM had enough lead time to run this poll via whatever technology was available at the time—presumably a 900 number—while her on-screen exit was seemingly so slapped together. I always assumed negotiations fell apart midway through that storyline in which Iris shot Carl halfway across the country from where her ~ 2-day trial+sentencing ended up taking place. My recollection is that SOM was not in the top tier of soap rags when it came to cutting-edge journalism, which wouldn't have said much to begin with, so a part of me wonders if these three options were basically dictated by someone in PR at NBC/P&G. If so, the phrasing of the third option makes me think they were already seriously contemplating leaving Iris in jail indefinitely, and maybe provides a window into how TPTB thought the ending was an appropriate swan song for the character. Although I can't imagine P&G at the time would have actively encouraged speculation about BM's return, post-GL, even if they might have secretly been open to the idea... Regardless of who came up with the wording, how gross that hiring a younger actress, specifically, was one of the other prescribed options—and without even an alternative for an age-appropriate recast if BM wasn't interested. Still, how awesome that only 10% voted for that, especially when you consider how few things poll at 90% these days.

I agree that each year from 1993-1995 brought major developments, many of them mentioned above, that changed the genre as a whole for the worse. But here's another potentially unpopular, related opinion: I would argue the brief period right before that—and, for a handful of shows, well into those three years—was actually setting the stage for the '90s to be one of the best decades in soap history. Looking back, a number of the soaps in the early '90s were taking significant steps toward the 21st century. At least, they got a lot closer than just about anything that I've seen on soaps since, more than 20 years into the millennium. And they actually had long-range stories with momentum. I think it's significant that Y&R, AMC, and ATWT of that era were, respectively, the three top-rated soaps for a few years there, after the over-the-top '80s came to an abrupt end. Admittedly, I wasn't watching any of those three at the time. But I can't help but wonder if those shows, which were (at the time) relatively grounded and diverse, sparked a trend that at least indirectly made some of my favorite soap eras possible: Nancy Curlee, et al's work at GL and Claire Labine's tenure at GH. Not to mention the Malone-Gottlieb era at OLTL, which I know is just as beloved by many other fans. Of course, then DOOL's ratings went up—during the OJ Simpson trial and the demonic possession story, as discussed above—and the pendulum swung back in the opposite direction, and off a cliff...

I love the discussion of the Alex/Mindy dynamic. FWIW, I will say that, before Nick came to town, especially, Alex seemed to me to have a sense of perspective with Roger and Mindy both. When Alex blackmailed Mindy into coming to her showdown at the country club, for example, it seemed primarily to help further unnerve Roger as she moved in for the kill. I thought it was very clear that taking down Roger was Alex's job but making Mindy's life hell was more of a hobby. For me, the (first) point of no return was when Alex actually recruited Roger to break up Nick and Mindy. It led to some memorable scenes/stories but, from then on, Alex clearly had it in for Mindy more than she cared about keeping her family safe from Roger. In hindsight, that damaged the character and strained credibility, for sure. Perhaps not coincidentally, I remember from rewatching all those 1991-92 episodes on YouTube a few years ago (RIP) that plot twist happened right after Nancy Curlee's name had just disappeared from the credits, when she went on maternity leave. I recalled that McKinsey had drawn a line in the sand at Curlee's departure in her exit interview, and I actually thought of that again when Curlee was describing her process for pitching stories in her recent YouTube interview: how she would say, "You'll never guess what happens next," and someone would try to guess, and she would respond, "No, because..." and then Curlee would reveal her actual idea. I can't help but wonder if that would have been a "No Because" moment had she been in the building.

I have no doubt a baby for Mary and Jack named Ryan was in the original RH bible, but to be fair the show was on the air almost two years before Ryan was actually born. I hear you, killing off Ryan would have added to the depressing factor, for sure, although I have no doubt at the end of the story arc there would have been a new baby named after Ryan. Probably Jill's, instead of naming her second child with Frank after Mary—even if she was married to Frank at the time, she could have kept her name and insisted that naming the baby Ryan Coleridge would honor both their families. Alternatively, it would have been fun/twisted if Delia had another baby while not married to someone in the family and decided to name them Ryan, over everyone's objection. Perhaps down the line Maeve and/or Mary would have felt an irresistible urge to become a surrogate parent to the poor child and provide a good influence. Yeah, and my recollection is within a month or so after the explosion, most of NAA's material was more about Jill's opioid addiction anyway, which could have been accomplished without Edmond actually dying. Jill could have successfully rescued Edmond but still hurt her back in the process, and the Ryans could have had all sorts of foreshadowy scenes about how devastating it would be if they lost one of their grandchildren. And if (other characters actually noticed that) Jill neglected Edmond (only because of the pills, of course!) and then Frank and/or Seneca challenged her for custody.... I feel like someone at the network, probably, got cold feet after Edmond died—I'm sure the ratings were not doing well with all the cast changes around that time—and sent a memo decreeing that nobody could mourn him on-camera anymore. Which again might have worked out better if Ryan had been killed off to facilitate a respite from the Kate Mulgrew recasts: Jack would have likely hidden his sense of loss behind renewed rage and an attempt to go back to his pre-Ryan/Ryans life. And like I suggested, Mary could have left town to grieve off-canvas, but leaving the door open for a KM return someday to bring closure.

I'm glad they never fully went there with Jack and Siobhan, even with Sarah Felder. It would have made sense for Jack and Mary's differences to continue to drive a wedge between them, even after Jack took responsibility for Ryan and they reconciled. There were surely all sorts of other Ryan family heirlooms that would trigger Jack in new ways. To j swift's point, there is a way they could have justified Mary leaving NY and upped the stakes of the mob story even more than they did by killing her off: if baby Ryan had been accidentally(?) killed in an Uncle Tiso–ordered explosion or something. Instead of killing off Edmond, which never packed as much of a punch because Frank was clearly too self-absorbed to really care about his children, but none of the other characters seemingly noticed. Whereas Jack and everyone else besides Mary and Maeve swore up and down he'd never be a good father, but we actually saw him grow to love Ryan. Claire Labine would have written the hell out of it, of course. Maybe Kate Mulgrew could have been persuaded to return longer-term at some point in the '80s, between gigs, and Jack and Mary could have tried to deal with their mutual grief and make it work again, but ultimately... When/how did they go from romantic location shoots for Maggie and Dave to Maggie being the spoiler for Dave and the cheerleader from Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion (I know she was supposed to be playing one of Kathleen's daughters, but from what little I saw of her run, I suspect she had a way better role in Romy and Michelle)? Didn't I read that the mid-'80s writers recycle one or more of Delia's desperate antics to hang onto Frank/Pat with Maggie/Dave, or am I making that up? Never mind that this promo was mere months after she was conspiring—among other things—with Roger to ingratiate herself as Jill's long-lost sister. I like what I've seen of CT's intro and Maggie doing battle with Delia toward the show's end, but I have a hard time believing there was a plausible throughline for Maggie's character in the intervening years.

I do remember the dementia story - didn't it go beyond a rejected pitch, with Audrey actually being shown forgetting things airing, or is that soap opera urban legend? My recollection of that time period (and/or what my brain filled in in the years afterward) was that Bobbie and Tony were onscreen a fair amount, albeit less than Robin/Stone for sure, and again in that short-term story with Alan. I assumed for the next decade or two, until that interview, that the Labines were just not committing to long-term stories for Bobbie/Tony or virtually anyone else at that point because they were only staying on to finish the AIDS story. Bobbie and Tony weren't quite back together, so another triangle/quadrangle made for a short-term detour without throwing anything else at them that was too high-stakes. Of course, it's possible Labine thought of a long-lost child for Bobbie at literally the eleventh hour, after the reconciliation with Tony. Otherwise, though, I'm just surprised they didn't introduce that sooner, as a slow-boil teaser thing. I see no reason why it couldn't have overlapped with the Stone story, or even been connected: Bobbie could have been visiting him in the AIDS ward, met another patient who had been a sex worker, and made some offhanded comment about how back when she was in the life the most she had to worry about was getting pregnant. Her memories could have been the obstacle that delayed Bobbie and Tony's reconciliation, as she pushed him away because she didn't trust him enough to confide in him after all they'd done to each other. Again, unless the network was skittish and refusing to greenlight any other longer-term stories.

For sure. In hindsight, it's like the Great Recession came to soaps 10 years early. GH—like most if not every other soap—was getting ratings that would be unheard of today and the economy as a whole was booming, but soap budgets were starting to shrink in the most ridiculous ways. Even as they obviously had money for the most pointless things: Culliton's anecdote about the PC premiere becoming a Sunday night movie at the eleventh hour reminded me that GH/PC got not one but two primetime specials during Richard Culliton's brief, rocky tenure.