FrenchBug82

I am still pretty early on of my rewatch but the first episode contained both Kelly flying out on the copper "crossing eyesight" with Joe arriving at the bus station which was both kind of COME ON and fine, symbolism, I get it. But also Perkins remembering Kelly monologuing on how she likes to touch his muscles and that was neither hot nor romantic but pretty cringe.

Funnily enough that is EXACTLY what prompted my question. I am watching the first episodes and thinking that Joe Perkins #1 was hot and doing fine, Santana was striking, is-that-supposed-to-be-CC-wait-Jed-Allen-was-number-4, etc. Some of the recasts were wonderful too - I mean, who can argue with Robin Mattson - but I didn't see anything wrong with the OGs. And recasting so many so early really set a bad tone IMO. I am curious about this. Eden is mentioned briefly in the first episode (Kelly says she and Eden used to fight for the right to dance with their dad) so did they include that line last-minute because they had already decided to create her but scripts were already written for the first few months of the show so they didn't introduce her properly until they had managed to snag Walker? I have been watching those Television Academy interviews and while there are a handful of soap ones, the interviewer clearly is not intimately familiar with the shows and it stay superficial. I wish someone would take the time to do similar in-depts interviews for an oral history of the shows, SB in particular. Would be fascinating for those of us who were too young for the BTS shenanigans in real-time

I realize this is a woulda, coulda, shoulda but I think everyone understood the show was dying in its last season so I wish producers had had the guts at the outset to say this was going to be the last season so let's write a huge umbrella story that is going to bring back old characters in various ways to set up the final episode as a comeuppance to JR. I could have taken the JR suicide cliffhanger if it was the result of a well-constructed season-long plot instead of hastily put-together cameos. Instead of convenient last-minute plot points to explain how he would be driven to kill himself (which the JR we knew wouldn't), make it slow and excruciating and serious enough that we would understand how he'd get to that point. How does the ultimate survivor feel he genuinely can't get back up this time? Bobby and him had fought before but what if JR had been helping hide Pamela all along? That's a relationship breaker here and there and gets VP back for a satisfying bow on the Bobby/Pam romance. That gets him kicked out of Southfork, his home. Etc. Instead of the random Barbara Eden character and Michelle, weave a large conspiracy of old characters to take Ewing Oil away from JR: opportunity for a gazillion fun cameos for those who wanted only a bit appearance, more for a few willing to sign on for several episodes. Bringing back old characters would have been satisfying EVEN more so in the service of a complicated story that leads to that final moment. Make Cliff taking control of Ewing a real "moment" rather than an ironic wink at the last minute. Problem with those finales is that producers seem to think of them as "wrapping up the stories we currently have on-screen" rather than "wrapping up an entire world fans have invested in for more than a decade". I get that money can be an issue in a declining show but there is no excuse for the lack of creative ambition when you have so much material and so many characters on the table. I am not sure how aware the Knots Landing folks were their last season was going to be their last and their last season had weak moments but it did set up a large story that slowly built up over the season, pulling together every character, bringing back Val a few episodes before the end until the finale reveal that the mastermind behind the season-long plot was Abby who hadn't been on for several seasons but who came back for the finale. I wouldn't give them an A+ for the finale but in terms of creative ambition and understanding how to give some semblance of satisfaction to fans they definitely did it a lot better.

Rewatching some of the old reunions and the exchanges with Phaedra and Apollo is both incredibly satisfying because BOY was she right on the money and yet so frustrating because, after all the s**t she got at the time, there never was a "Yep, Kenya was vindicated" moment on the show itself. They just... moved on.

Was there ever a big-picture analysis or speculation as to why SB was unusually plagued by recasts, re-recasts, re-re-recasts from almost the get-go? I am not talking about things like Kelly or Mason recasts because the performer chose to leave; that's par for the course. But I mean firing some of your OG actors to recast a few months into a show is unheard of. Having such a revolving door in the first 18 months of a show is certainly sign something is going seriously wrong. Was it an issue with the Dobsons? The work environment? Why was Santa Barbara casting so bizarrely handled?

Yes. The legal liability for doing that would be huge. Playing it once without authorization might be a mix up. But keep doing it after the owner of the copyright asks them to stop? No way a big corporation would take such a legal risk considering how much of a gimme a legal case it would be for the victim. Which also brings up: if that was the case, it would have been an easy legal case for him to make for a lot of money. Why would he have done nothing about it? Show-business can be shady but I don't believe this story as told. There has to be more to it.

Inspired by the fact Jane Wyman is the thumbnail for one of the two promos above, I'd compare the Falcon finale with Dallas' and say that while Falcon Crest was absolutely horrible in its last season, worse than Dallas, and didn't quite neatly tie up everything in its finale either, it ended up with that beautiful speech that was simple but conveyed the emotional resonance of the show and the characters, even if we didn't get any guest stars or interesting plots. So it left a good taste because it acknowledged the emotional attachment of fans of the show (and you'd have to be a fan to still have been watching by that point). As someone said above, Dallas' finale was unsatisfying AND bleak. That's a bad combination.

As I said, everything you said is true. Of course she is imperfect and has her own secrets. And of course the sometimes vicious way she goes about things is why people refuse to believe her. BUT I also know that this way of doing things is exactly what Bravo expects of her, she knows it, and leans into it because that's where her career as a bravoreality star come from. I respect that but that's why I don't feel bad she is Cassandra. That's the price she pays for that "role". But gotta hand it to a player who plays the game well though and she is almost always on target.

I don't feel sorry for Kenya because she strikes me as very self-aware and she knows that her role on the show is being an antagonist and she is more than happy to earn her paycheck by stirring s**t. She knows what she is here for and she is happy playing the part and I am fine with that since she seems to be. But I continue to be fascinated by the number of times Kenya has been subsequently proven absolutely right on things that were hotly debated - and generally against her - in the fandom.

I am going to say this: it would quite something if this group of women who behaves like a pack of hyenas going after a chosen victim every season and does. not. let. go of the dumbest pettiest stuff to the point of bullying, would actually NOT do the same the one season they have a real non made-up reason to go full-on on one of them I don't like their usual behavior and what they did to LVP or DR the past seasons but I'll be damned if I see them go easy on EG this season.

It is funny because it is THE thing that struck me from the entire trailer. And I kept thinking me obsessing over that awful makeup line during a "dramatic scene" summed up this franchise pretty well. A really petty mundane detail hat somehow managed to say something about that lady's life.

I am probably the only human being in the universe having any feelings or opinions about this but I actually used to ship Lindsey Wells and Jack. They never even were officially romantically paired but they had good chemistry and understood each other without judgement. LK is pretty well enconsced in Days at this point but if they ever cancel it, I'd love to see this revisited.

In a way that is one of the small myriad largely subconscious way racist tropes sustain themselves. It wouldn't occur to even well-meaning white writers to write a wealthy black family. Because blackness is not associated with business success or old wealth in the racist subconscious of our culture, which means they aren't portrayed as such which in turn means the trope is passed on different generations. Talking of "Generations" that was one of the ways you could tell the show had some black staff because a large section of the cast got to be glamorous just like any white family on a white soap. Meanwhile, the "white-dominated" show with arguably the strongest longest-lasting AA "island" (Y&R) came out of the family of a house servant. I have a LOT of issues with Tyler Perry who I find reprehensible in many ways but the success of his shows - garbage as they are - shows the appetite is huge and out there and 100% think there is at least as much potential in "minority" viewers than there is in clinging to the dwindling viewership of conservative housefraus. And only one of these two demographics is growing. It boggles the mind not one soap is willing to make a bet and take the risk to target the former even if it means alienating some of the latter.

Me and my brother have the same exact same set of two parents but we were raised separately (long story). We are both gay. But while his husband is a great guy, I do not find him attractive in the slightest.

PS: (I couldn't resist meme-quoting but hope you do get your answer)

Ultimately it sounds like we have the same take. And I mean, being professional and respectful and focused is not mutually exclusive from being gracious and friendly and funny. There are times and places for shenanigans. But you are right that she was probably even less tolerant of shenanigans like his if she didn't like him. And as I said, I get a strong whiff of overgrown frat boy in his stories so I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't. But it is always worth remembering when people tell stories about costars or people they have worked with: one person's experience is down to their own personality as much as the person they are talking about. It is all subjective so unless we have specific documented anecdotes to base our judgement on or a pattern of anecdotes from various people, we should rarely take one person's judgement at face value. Case in point: Bev and Michael Zaslow were both giants of acting and of soaps and both have/had an excellent reputation with plenty of people singing their praises as human beings and as professionals and, yet, by all accounts, they really didn't like working with each other on GL. Goes to show...

It is undeniably true that soap directors nowadays are probably so pressed by time that they are more focused on blocking. But they are still directors - and that's the job they chose and love - so I don't also believe there is no room for giving notes when needed. No time to micro-manage like film directors would: sure. Telling an actor he is making a bad acting choice that is ruining the scene: your job as director.

OK I understand the explanation. I guess someone who is focused, professional and blindering out the outside world when trying to be in character is more my jam so his line of thinking didn't really occur to me. I am not a big fan of pranksters at work either and I don't think it makes us stick in the mud or rote. Just there is a time and place for everything. But those are the wonders of different personalities... As mentioned above I agree with this. And I also suspect there was a frat boy aspect to their antics that might have felt particularly uncomfortable for a woman to be around. So not only must it have been annoying, but from the descriptions above, I am pretty sure they must have crossed a line or two here and there that wasn't just about clashing personalities. You read this and you know who that guy is; and the fact all these years later he doesn't seem to have reflected on it at all tells me that, yep, I know *exactly* the type, I have met him and every woman on this board will have too.

Maybe I am slow-witted but how does this show her up? I am confused how him showing up without pants is supposed to be embarassing her?

We have seen bad acting in soaps before of course but I think this is the first time I see in the wild acting that looks like the parody of bad acting that actors do when they want to mock bad actors but done seriously. It is wild.

The preview for tomorrow looks like the cringe level is going at its max. Forget Frank: why are the DIRECTORS who are ON-SET while he does this stuff not saying something. That. Is. Their. Job. To direct.

That, I can co-sign And your recollection of his reaction to Angie/Cliff matches with mine. The few times I have read him mention it, it was positive and his statement that the audience rejected it because each of them were in a supercouple was absolutely correct and a well-known phenomenon. That in this case the racial element made the backlash more pronounced is also obvious but him describing the backlash matter-of-factly does not equate endorsing it.

I am getting a sense you are not a fan of the guy. LOL Listen, the subtext of what happened with VR is why I clarified. I am pretty open to the notion he may suffer from the blinders many white folks, particularly of that generation, suffer when it comes to race and wanting to control the conversation. I don't doubt that was part of the dynamic with VR. But I genuinely do not believe for a second his admittedly weird fixation with hating the Keemo story has to do with race. It is a weird hill for him to die on but I really think it is stuck in his mind as something he resented at the time and is comfortable hating on it now since there doesn't seem to be any appetite to bring them over anyway. I do think some of your ideas would not work. Keemo was established as liking a simple lifestyle and it would ring weird for him to engage in big business. I'd rather see his children be the ones to grow up with us and the show keep Keemo as this weirdly stubborn principled man - which can be an interesting source of conflict with his highly grey-area father and the influence that might have on his children. I knew the Angie/Cliff story had been sabotaged and poorly received but I had never heard Bergman wasn't fond of it. I actually always heard him speak fondly of DM. What were these objections? What did I miss?

Reminds me when Days was making fans vote on whether John or Stefano should be the father of Hope's baby (so many things wrong with that, not least of which excluding the option most fans would vote for and that they ended up going with later anyway) and the promos had three randoms with a sign in a studio parking lot. I hope the one who had to pretend they were rooting enough for Stefano as Hope's babydaddy that they showed up at the studio with a sign were at least paid a stipend.

I didn't mean to suggest as much. His misgivings with the storyline were actually absolutely justified and had nothing to do with race. But I don't think it was the way it was written (he has endured way worse stories without cursing them decades later the way he still does this one), albeit you are right it wasn't even a interesting story: he objected quite rightfully that it was a complete 180 from what Jack had been established until now. In his youth he had been established to have been an irresponsible spoiled-brat cad so the idea he went to Vietnam (no way: Terry Lester's Jack would have bought a way out!) and had a passionate romance with Luann there that he had never forgotten just rang like a completely different character from what we had been told he was in his youth until then. Terry Lester's Jack absolutely did not have a hole in his heart regarding a woman he left behind in Vietnam. That was an absurd retcon. That's the objection PB had: it was a boring story, sure, but above all it didn't fit the character AND as you said, I think he, along with many of us, suspected this was an attempt to change the character to fit his existing public image rather than trying to continue what Terry Lester had established and it must have been a little bit insulting for his ego (I mean, that didn't sound like a vote of confidence he was managing to play the character the way TL had, which, well, he wasn't even though he was doing fine). So he continues to trash this storyline today as one of his least favorites - and that is undoubtedly why it has been largely memory-holed on-screen - but the fact is this was twenty five years ago. The retcon is now cannon so his dislike of this storyline should not prevent the characters from being reintroduced and used positively, no matter what we think of the original character. And since this is a thread on racial representation in soaps, I would remiss not to point out how much Luann's passive almost submissive nature responded to ugly stereotypes about Asian women. I actually liked her, dull as she was, and she and Jack were kind of sweet but she was not well thought-out. Keemo, on the other hand, suffered from bad writing - nothing for him to do - and not stellar acting but, in the spirit of this thread, I did like that they chose a hunk and gave him original character traits - his strong moral principles, to the point of anger, while a bit of a storyline dead end, still stick out to me as a very original take on a soap character. Y&R has an iffy track record on race but it is worth noting that the two Asian male characters they introduced, while misused, at least didn't fit the usual narrative about Asian men in show business so that's a positive. Luann on the other hand was a bad stereotype. Anyhow Keemo is probably married now and has several children in Vietnam who would probably be happy to come study at university in the USA and stay with Grampa Jack. I don't think they can use Keemo himself because his initial reason for leaving was his discovery the woman he was infatuated with (Mary Jo) had had a fling with his father which went against his principles. An admirable realistic stance but one that means he probably would be useless in Genoa City since Jack has shtooped almost every female characters that would be a good match for a recast Keemo (always though Sharon would be right in the right age range but alas the misguided Jack/Sharon marriage makes that out of character).