FrenchBug82

Phillip definitely "came back from the Dead" in the usual definition. But I am pretty sure nobody in the audience believed Adam was really dead: he was declared dead on the show in a way that was transparent he'd back. That's the distinction I personally draw between a character being presumed dead on the show (whether we are explicitly told they are alive like whenever Victor "dies" or the current Sonny story on GH, or whether it is left so open-ended that it is pretty obvious they are not like with Adam) versus a character being dead - body shown and show leaving no ambiguity in the storytelling and then later returning them in an extremely far-fetched scenario when they or the leaving performer change their mind. The latter is the trope people like to mock. I don't recall Y&R ever doing that whereas most other soaps have plenty of cases of people we SAW THE DEAD BODY OF who then turned out alive later.

This, this, THIS. That's what irked me, most of all. The story of Annie had been soapy and campy at times but the underlying story of her slowly becoming *that* person had been wonderful - well-plotted and paced and of course brilliantly acted. She was likeable when she started and that's why part of me (and I imagine a lot of the audience) kind of felt her pain and could not completely hate her. The reason her meltdown at the witness stand was a standout moment of GL history is because it was not merely evil revealed nor just crazy talk: there was a genuine human emotion behind her obsession with Reva. We FELT her, however awful she had become, because we had known her as a good person and we could understand how Reva's return from the dead slowly destroying her dreams of a better life after a rough time with her addiction and stuff would have made her very bitter and fixated on Reva. And, while the show may not have done this intentionally, there was a subtext there about Reva, a great character but a character who WAS attention-sucking. What she was doing to Annie's life could be (and ultimately would be) what her return would do to the show itself. So that Eddie Banks retcon not only made no sense but just pulled the rug from under why Annie was so compelling. And it signalled to the audience that, no, we were supposed to love Reva and root for her, not have a complicated love-hate relationship with her - which would have been more interesting and would have made Reva so much easier to swallow. Of course, confirming TPTB by then did not understand what made Annie work as an antagonist, they wrote her cartoonishly evil when she returned (I mean that brainwash potion subplot... come on). But even with that said, that Eddie Banks twist felt so tacked-on and random that it feels like a last-minute write or a change of plans.

Of course it was intended to be funny-shady.

Does anyone know why the Annie story wrapped up (the first time around) in such a weird out-of-nowhere deus ex machina (Eddie Banks) that made no sense based on the story that had been told for years prior? Did they expect CW to renew her contract for some reason and were taken by surprise and had to come up with a quick plot point to explain why Alan and Annie wouldn't get married? I remember feeling so cheated by the way CW was written out because I liked the way Annie had devolved in front of our eyes and retconning that scheming past felt sooooo cheap and tacked-on.

The writers at the time were implying it but it is also clear to me either fan reaction and/or the actors' dislike of the storyline (and we know EB wouldn't have been shy about letting them know) is why it was merely implied rather than show like it usually would Thankfully because it was never shown it gave an easy opening for later writers to make it explicit it was never consummated which was a retcon but an easily acceptable one. We can never be sure but we have to go by what they are showing us and they were showing us a married couple lovingly hand-holdingly climbing up to the bedroom. I mean, sex is what that meant.

Obviously Luann is the villain this week but considering what had had happened the weeks prior, anyone else find it amusing that Leah is in the bedroom with Eboni badmouthing Luann, even inviting Heather along! The criticism of Luann is vastly warranted but considering how much drama Leah wanted to start just the week prior in the vein of "Luann, look what Heather says publicly about you", gotta love that she switched to trashing Luanna privately without batting an eye or seeing the irony. Again, completely warranted though and others have said it better above.

Ironically, that ugly side of her personality was the side of her personality I found most interesting. Because it was real - off-putting yes but it was an actual personality trait and invited believable drama. As you said, most everything else Lily was written was either bland or very very heavy on the character-propping. I fully understand the attachment to MB and had no problems with Lily being on the canvas but I completely agree with your assessment that she was overrated on the show itself and that the show would have done itself major favours by accepting her awfulness and playing into it. Something of it peeked out during Luke's coming out story actually. A lot of fans said it sounded out of character - and I seem to recall MB being unhappy about Lily's reaction too - but it is one of the rare moments that felt true to how I saw Lily (and how you describe her) rather than how they had tried to sell her to us.

Yes. Sharon and Victor counts as one of the worst things that ever happened to the show. He had acted as a surrogate father to her all the way before. It was insane, out of character for both of them, absolutely revolting in the context of Sharon/Nick being the end game. It was absolutely definitely a horrendous mistake. That they hung on to in some version for way longer than was sane to do. And the show knows it, making sure later to tell us they never actually slept together despite getting married twice.

I think the ratio for her in the past twenty years has been 70% insulting character-trashing story, 25% snoozefest and 5% potentially interesting stuff that they drop too quickly. What was the reaction back to Mari Jo Mason as a character? I was pretty isolated in my viewing experience and I remember finding her not particularly interesting as a villain-ish character and kind of lightly written as if they created her as a plot device rather than a full-bore character. And yet she did have a lot of story while she was on. What did others think about her?

Got it. February 2012 and February 2015 look natural. April 2020 sort of too. All the others look like they have some kind of colored filter on (pinkish 2013-2014 and greenish post-2016). Why do they do that?

We have discussed it in the past in the context of these young characters rushing to marry but it is astonishing how eager the show is to AGE those characters. Not only marriage and being high executives barely out of high school but now a kid? And it is an all-around thing because that outfit Summer was wearing during her conversation with Tara would have been incredibly dowdy even for a 45yo, let alone a beautiful girl in her 20s. To make the storylines believable they have to make the character look older than they are so they have to write their dialogue, choose their wardrobe to be incredibly age-inappropriate but the other way around. How about letting characters in their 20s have storylines that 20 yos can relate to? Heck, on a purely shallow level, Kyle and Summer are both aesthetically pleasing. Why not let them be sexy and fun instead of dressing them corporate every day?

As someone who doesn't understand the technical terms very well sometimes, what do you mean by that?

Yeah, the foreshadowing is pretty heavy there. Nothing says "You're about to f*** up" like a character saying "I don't need help; I know what I am doing". It is like in competitive reality TV when a contestant says in a confessional "I am excited about this week's challenge because this is totally my expertise"... You KNOW they are going home at the end of the episode.

The process of change has been so slow that I had almost forgotten but Eric Braeden was such a dynamic presence back then. He wasn't always doing the cold mumbly thing he does most of the time now.

Why can't people have disagreements about our interpretation of what is happening on-screen without being rude, condescending, aggressive? Urgh. I watched the same show as you did. I stick to my interpretation. Summer disliked Sally on-sight and everything flew from there. They didn't build it up in a believable compelling manner, REGARDLESS of whoever you think is the "worst" person.

I don't think that's quite right: it is not like it is their choice. That's their job. Now, I wouldn't go to the barricades on this because I get it: I get shallow too but I think it is better to stick to positive comments when it comes to performers looks. If I find a performer is looking bad, I bite my tongue. I cringe when people say really vicious things about the looks of performers. They are still human beings, regardless of whether I like their work or not AND whether I personally "would" or not. Belittling people because one does not find their body to fit an artificial standard does not impress me much and distracts from the real actual criticisms that can be made. Again, not casting stones: I am sure I have done it before. But the conversation about RH yesterday struck me as completely unnecessarily unpleasant. And Lord knows there is PLENTY more legitimate things to say about him and whatever GH is doing bringing him back. Not going to belabor the point though; just wanted to express it.

He's indeed very good. There was no way that character would have had so much shelf-life when he first appeared. It is down to him that he managed to make Devon a solid lasting leading man. That said, Devon's stories have often not worked for me. But that's because the writing has been atrocious and that much is true of many characters the past fifteen years so I can separate his talent from the lackluster use they make of him.

Nine Daytime Emmy nominations at 34yo is... something.

May I be a stuck-up scold for a second and say that, while there are a gazillion reasons to dislike RH as an actor and/or resent what they are doing with his nine characters, his looks have nothing to do with it. I am not particularly attracted to him (or SB for that matter) but I am not impressed by the "Let me list what I don't like about his body" commentary.

I even came here to check whether I was the only one who had missed that GV was coming back. Could be a short term spot to wrap up the story though (finds out she cheated, leaves her and this time there is nothing hanging back that makes his absence weird)

Even today, people actually still CALL the networks for the DUMBEST things so I don't disbelieve that 1000 people, not a huge number, could have called back then. But obviously the whole thing was a PR stunt where the impact was exagerated for press consumption. Honestly I prefer that to, say, all the press Y&R is trying to get right now for hiring Thelma Hopkins for a one-day role just to get a round of coverage about the "reunion" with Bryton James. At least the Marlena death back then was an organic PR stunt about the *show* rather than trying to ride the coattails of other shows.

There is absolutely no reason for Summer or Phyllis to get THAT pressed about Sally flirting with Jack. "Her fiance's father" (come on!) can date whoever the hell he wants. Now, can she have an opinion? Sure. Is she entitled to dislike Sally on-sight? Sure. But the vendetta that the writers created was WAY out-of-proportion with the lack of compelling motive. There needed a real personal reason for them to hate her that much. We were not given it, sorry, and that did a disservice to the story and the characters involved. It was an artificial conflict.

Housewives All-Stars: Trumpturds Edition.

How does Sally going after Jack relate in any way shape or form to Summer or Phyllis? It is none of their business and, no, it does not justify their vendetta. It was out of thin air to create conflict.

A "I don't see color" kind of girl is someone who thinks that being non-racist means pretending races are not a factor in our society and the real problem is people of color talking about racism. Under the guise of "loving everyone" and "I am so not racist because I treat everyone the same" it is denying the very real experience of PoC who, whether they want it or not, HAVE to live race every day of their lives because PoC are not treated the same as anyone who reads a book or a newspaper should know by now. The whole idea that Sutton suffers from the Southern redneck stereotype the same way a black woman suffers from racism and that Sutton's "overcoming" of that stereotype should be a model for how Crystal and Garcelle should rise above the real racial issues of our country is... special. It is the anti-anti-racism mindset and I am so happy that Crystal is not there for it. Racism is more than simply overtly hating other races. And PoC know because they live it and they do not and should not have any patience with white people who belittle and deny their experience in order to assuage their guilty conscience. Reading the comments on YouTube and forums make me want to bang my head against the wall because there are plenty of white people out there like Sutton who THINK they know, will argue endlessly against PoC that they somehow know better about racism and who choose to get defensive over listening and learning. We all live in a horribly racist society with centuries of social, political, economic and culture baggage that won't go away in a day. The difference is between the white people who want to do better and those who want to pretend there is no problem because having to recognize error, making the effort to change behavior and listening to others is more effort they are willing to invest in something that doesn't impact their own lives. So they deny it is even a problem and get pissy when being called out. Sutton, at least in that moment, was *that girl*. It doesn't mean she is hopeless and can't learn - she seems more open than others and she was drunk for sure - but that's what Crystal was calling out.