DRW50

Ashley Crow is on Supernatural right now, as a mama vampire.

Andy left the show in late 2000, I believe. Andy wasn't a "man with balls," so why would pighead Sheffer want to write for him? I missed Andy so much, and not having him return for a visit at the end was one of Goutman's biggest failures (one of many), but I'm glad that that hack didn't get his paws on Andy.

I have a feeling they had no idea that moment would be seen that way in fandom. NCW seems to have had an inkling, but the director, not so much. I think they thought the scene would be interpreted as just a last gasp of twisted love between Cersei and Jaime.

I don't envy the show that. I know they got a lot of hate for their Dany story in season 2 (other than the House of the Undying being some type of casual stroll, I didn't mind her story in that season) because they had to make most of it up. I guess I wish they would either show the character (Tyrion) less, or expand his character and relationships as much as they can within the confines of the books.

I wish they'd have more of Loras with his sister and grandmother or with the knights, beyond just being the gay guy. I know this is how Oberyn is written in the books too, and it's nice that he seems to have some sort of honor and isn't on there to be a villain, but he reminds me so much of some lewd 70's movie character who hits on all the wives in the neighborhood and then, wink wink, might want to hit on some husbands too. Bisexuality is a lurid tease in the writing for him. Instead of his just being a guy who is bisexual. Again I know this isn't in the books so I can't criticize the show for it, but I would have been so happy if someone like Jon Snow had been bisexual - that would have been something different, especially since, other than his love for Ygritte, most of his stories aren't about his sexuality.

Like I said, I don't think fan favorites influences which characters die or don't. I just mean their characterization while on the show. I don't mind Stannis too much. To be honest I think he'd be more interesting with less attempts at showing an edge (apparently he didn't choke Melisandre in the book), and if they just had him as a contrast to Melisandre and her fervent fundamentalism, but even the way he is on the show, I think the whole Dragonstone clan are believable and add something different to the show - they were supposed to be in power, they were supposed to have a glorious battle, but instead it's a long slow grind to irrelevance, and Stannis is literally torching everything about his people to try to regain relevance. I like that they have such somber lives, yet with Shireen we see some glimmer of hope for their future, if she somehow manages to survive without being horribly traumatized.

I think it makes the show less willing to write them with moments that take away from the popular fan characterization of them. Tyrion, other than some season 2 plotting when he was the hand, seems to be stuck in a rut of sad panda faces, Tyrion-the-noblest-Lannister-of-them-all, mixed with some witty one-liners. Perhaps he's also that way in the books - I don't know. But it's somewhat boring for me to watch on the show.

Kieron Richardson sneering 10 times. Wow. I want to watch. That Peri or Tegan or Katarine or whatever her name is - awful awful acting.

They won't make huge changes from the books, I agree. I just meant tweaking what is already there. I think that Tyrion and Arya are both somewhat one-dimensional in part because they're such fan favorites. Hopefully that will change as the season rolls along.

I suppose it bothers me because I feel like this is where the direction of the show goes. That people who think Arya is some sort of sprightly action hero role model (instead of a teenager who is barely holding on to the last shreds of herself) and Sansa is just an idiot tend to help create that reality on the show, because that's most of what the show hears. I feel like the show simplifies the characters sometimes to help go along with what vocal fans push. It's a catch-22.

I don't know if he's a monster, but I think he's a pretty shitty guy who gets a pass from fans because he's "funny" with Arya. I've heard people say he's a good father to her because look at what she's learning. This is a guy who kills children (unless my season 1 memory is wrong, which it may be), who abandoned his army after expecting them to die for the cause, and who has a hypocritical "code" that he uses to justify whatever he sees fit. There's no great life lesson here. As for Jaime and Cersei, I agree that she won't see him any differently. The director said she was manipulating HIM in that scene, and that she wanted it, so that tells me what they will do going forward with the characters. Unfortunately I didn't see any of that onscreen, although I know others did. So instead of seeing a man who is trying to be better striving for old times with a grasping Cersei, I saw a woman saying "no" over and over until she sort of gave in. But I know that's not how the scene was intended, and I will try to go forward with their interpretation.

I agree that it's not the worst thing Jaime can do, or that this makes him worse than other male characters. What bothers me is when people say (which I know you weren't saying), who cares if they randomly made him a rapist, he did bad things, this show is about bad people. Opening that door leads to normalizing rape and shrugging it off if every man on this show started going around raping women.

Oberyn leaving his pants on while the other guy was awkwardly positioned and women writhed...eh. Oberyn feels like the generic pervy male bisexual TV cliche to me. It doesn't help that the actor reminds me of Schneider on One Day At a Time. I couldn't help comparing it to Renly/Loras, where we got a fair amount (well, two scenes) of somewhat graphic content.

Kim Rhodes will be on Supernatural tonight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwAE_4q1f7E Teri Polo filed for bankruptcy. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2610567/A-millions-dollars-debt-Meet-The-Parents-star-Teri-Polo-files-bankruptcy.html

I read a post about how they cut out things like her being catatonic after the Red Wedding. I guess that's for time, but it does make me learn more toward them seeing her as becoming a sociopath. I do see what you mean though. You've probably already read this, but the director spoke again about the episode and this time said it wasn't rape. http://zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

Unfortunately those reviews tend to carry the day. It's cool and fun to love Arya and Tyrion and Dany and jab at all the rest. I like Dany a lot, and sometimes I like Tyrion and Arya, but they aren't saints, regardless of what the press makes them out to be. I wasn't insulting Arya. It's not her fault she has become a sociopath, or is on the way to being that. I was mostly trying to say she isn't going to laugh or be embarrassed over Sansa. She's past that type of reaction. Sansa is a distant memory to her.

I made the mistake of reading an EW review which sneered that Arya would be "face-palming" because Sansa "managed" to get kidnapped yet again. Yes, let's all guffaw because a girl who barely feels anything at all now (beyond some disgust at the pig who accompanies her) would laugh it up at her sister being held hostage by a pervert. A part of me wants to quit watching this show, but when I see hacks like that, I feel like I'd sort of be abandoning Sansa (yes I know she's a fictional character) if I did. Bleh.

I understand what you're saying, Vee. I guess the problem I have is that I don't trust Jaime around any women after this. I don't just mean in romantic relationships, I mean in general. I do think he and Cersei had a very toxic relationship, with power struggles, an unhealthy relationship. But all I could think was if he can do this to her, then what is he going to do to other women? I can't say this is just because of Cersei or Cersei drove him to this, because I feel like if I do that, then I'm blaming Cersei. I know that isn't what you are doing, but I feel like that's what the scene does. I just think there were so many other ways to show this relationship ending badly.

Are you watching the show now? How do you feel about Katherine's exit (which seemed way more unpopular than the show had realized)?

I thought you meant she would be able to defend herself from rape, period. I would like to believe that through a 17 year marriage to a man who saw his dead love's face every time he crawled into bed with her, he never raped her, but I don't feel like it was ever really said on the show, other than her saying sometimes he was too drunk to actually finish the act. If Jaime had been raping Cersei for years, I don't think she would have had the reactions to him that she had in the early seasons. I think she would have lumped him in with all the other men in her life. I think in her mind, Jaime was pure. I read that article too, and I felt like it was one of those which was patting the show on the back for using some grand statement that reminds us all the men on Game of Thrones (bar a few) are terrible people. To me that's just too easy - if I assumed that every man on this show but one or two went around raping women, then I would not watch. It's not a grand statement on life and on sociology. It's a dramatic series that is supposed to have some characters with shades of complexity. She also said this: So basically Joffrey beating women and pleasuring himself to the sounds of women being beaten unconscious (or dead) are from Jaime, since now we know Jaime is a rapist. I think that's just way too much. Everything with the Lannister family is already toxic and tragic and self-destructive enough without needing to have the show turn into Pin the Tail on the Rapist. No one is saying he was a good and noble fellow. What we're saying (well, two of us) was that he wasn't a rapist. I don't think every person on this show who does terrible things is a rapist or is going to become a rapist. If I did, then there would be about a dozen characters or so characters who would be free of that trope. http://io9.com/george-r-r-martin-responds-to-that-controversial-game-1565762209

Cersei did have at least one of his children. For all of Cersei's inner strength, she is still a slender woman who has, as far as we know, taken no opportunities to learn self-defense. When a man rapes her, she has little way of stopping him. Robert likely did move away from her as time passed, but I think he did rape her and beat her at points during their marriage. I wasn't going to say anything else but I mostly just commented because my objection to that scene isn't about ruining the beautiful Cersei/Jaime love story, or wanting to see Jaime redeemed, or not realizing that Jaime is an awful person. My objection to it is that I feel like they took a character and made him a rapist for no reason, and added rape into a story for no apparent reason. Cersei's characterization was built on feeling like every man in her life but Jaime used and abused her. The one person who made her feel whole and gave her a glimpse into a life she could never have (not only what she and Jaime saw as true love, but also what Cersei saw as the man she wanted to be). When he was gone, she spun even further out of control. By the time he came back, it was too late for her to keep clinging to this fantasy. And instead of using this crumbling fantasy to mirror her crumbling mental state, Jaime is now just another rapist. If as some fans say, this wasn't new for them, then he's been raping her over and over. So her main character point is actually just another of her abusers. Cersei's rich character arc is turned into a rape storyline, and the disturbing message that being raped is something a woman can never come back from. As for Jaime, yes, he's done terrible things. But so have many other characters. Yet the show didn't just throw in rapes to help remind us of their wickedness. Let's look at Theon, a man who treated women like garbage, who sexually humiliated women, who felt inferior to women. They could have had him rape Ros. They could have had him rape the captain's daughter on the boat. They didn't. Because they knew that being a terrible person doesn't automatically mean you go around raping people. If we go down that road, where let's just throw in some rape because this person is bad news, then that means everything on the show becomes some type of rapefest. Ygritte kills innocent people and watches them be eaten? Hey, let's have her rape Jon Snow - why not? The Hound is a horrible excuse for a man - let's have him raping women he sees on the way to wherever the [!@#$%^&*] he and Arya are glowering their way toward. Why not? Tywin is a cold, cruel man - let's have him rape prostitutes, because why wouldn't he, right? Rape should not be a catchall for bad behavior, or some type of lazy touchstone. And when I keep seeing people saying Jaime is bad so of course he is a rapist, that's what it becomes. Nothing in Jaime's character arc made me think he was a rapist, or that his relationship with Cersei, twisted as it was, was built on rape. And now, any time I see him, I will wonder when he will rape again and I will see him as a rapist.

http://boards.soapoperanetwork.com/topic/40180-oltl-tribute-thread/page-140#entry1328058

I didn't. I guess I should. I don't think it was as much about money as George and Jacquie being angry about their material and changes to the characters.