This is pretty much the standard Broderick story, on steroids due to cancellation. She had Jonathan Kinder trying to keep a drug-addicted Erica under his thumb, and holding a comatose Skye prisoner for years. She had two puppetmasters on ATWT at the same time (Reid and Alec Wallace), one of whom used drugs to control people. She had the Mitch Laurence stuff on OLTL, which involved lies and control. She started the mess with Jim Thomasen, control freak and uber-villain, before she left AMC in late 1997.

Not to mention lesser instances like the horrioble Tanner Jordan/Hayley mess. Even in the ca 86-87 era of AMC when she was listed as HW, she had a thing for these larger than life villains.

I still think very highly as a HW (more than you do, I know), but it's not for these types of stories which are her weakness. (OK, I did find the Jonathan Kinder saga kinda fun I hate to admit).

Looks like there is absolutely no buildup to Angie finding out about her baby.

This is an example of a story I just blame the crunch of time left for the show, for. I think it's well done, actually, it's just going at too quick a trot--but it still seems to be covering the basic a-b-c of storytelling better than, say, the way Carlivati at OLTL does with his much more dragged out stories which typically just go from A, repeated over and over, to C with no progress. If that makes sense...

Well, we never saw it.... but it was always implied that's what she did.

Krystal was fun as that trashy character, but served absolutely no purpose after the culmination of the babyswitch. They should have kept her in jail.

Krystal was a rewrite from the start. Remember her first scene, Babe was kinda hesitant to talk much about her, and we saw Babe call her and Krystal was whoring it up in some trashy motel, the implication was she would now go to Pine Valley because her daughter had scored a rich guy and she could live off that. But as soon as she showed up next, basically, she was pretty much how she is now, albeit still a bit more trashy, but with a heart of gold who would do anything for her daughter. The implication before was she essentially abandoned Babe as much as she could.

Frankly, that original characterisation would have made a lot more sense, and made Babe's character make a lot more sense (and even maybe more likeable--although I liked Babe fine).

Whoa, Cara told Tad she slept with David. Under non-cancellation circumstances that gem would be saved for November sweeps! She isn't even questioning whether she is pregnant yet or not.

That is one instance where I appreciate the speed actually. I hate revelations like that held out SO SO long, eve n if saying it one episode later is very short.

DID ANYONE FEEL THAT EARTHQUAKE IN DC, NY, MD, OH, OR VA ??

PLEASE, you are not the ABC news interrupting soaps (or soap discussion) go off topic.

I wasn't a big Jake & Amanda fan but I'm enjoying them these days. ITA that we need one day without Orpheus ASAP!

Yup, more proof of why they shouldn't still be together!

Oh no, this is nowhere near Pratt/McTavish level! It actually makes sense to me that Broderick tried to tie up all the presumed dead characters who were going to come back for the ending. If the show were going completely off, I would've been excited to see who comes back next.

Zach & Babe should've stayed dead, Leo & Gillian should've been alive.

To play devil's advocate, Jim Thomasen was a child molester and pornographer under Broderick, but Adam was responsible for the plane crash. McTavish rewrote it that Jim sabotaged the plane.

But for Maya's sake, it doesn't really matter. It just makes her want to find out what happened to her child.

ICAM! Krystal was great as trailer trash, but she and Babe both should have gone to jail at the end of the babyswitch.

I felt it here in Vermont!

Once again, agreed with everything 100% (But you East Coasters need to get over the earthquake, we have them every couple of weeks here in Victoria BC).

Krystal was a rewrite from the start. Remember her first scene, Babe was kinda hesitant to talk much about her, and we saw Babe call her and Krystal was whoring it up in some trashy motel, the implication was she would now go to Pine Valley because her daughter had scored a rich guy and she could live off that. But as soon as she showed up next, basically, she was pretty much how she is now, albeit still a bit more trashy, but with a heart of gold who would do anything for her daughter. The implication before was she essentially abandoned Babe as much as she could.

Yep, she was trailer trash and Babe was more sympathetic that way. She didn't give a rat's ass about poor Babe, feeling lonely with her billionaire hubby. She was having some tawdry affair in a no-tell motel. Heck, even when she showed up in town she gave that doctor a BJ to help fake the paternity of Babe's unborn child. THAT scene I will never forget.

Jim was also going around killing people and controlling them. It may not have become as cartoonish as what McTavish made it but probably would have been close

I can't remember, who did he kill under Broderick?

She was. I think she assisted Dr. Clater (who I always thought was too Leslie Neilsen to be the only GYN in town. LOL)

Aww, back when they had hospital staff who weren't just the three main characters and a nameless doctor (the Paging Dr Bender doesn't count). Dr Clater (though I think different actors) was on for at least 20 years, as was shrink Dr Tolan it seemed (who was played by several actresses).

Wow Amanda had a fast recovery, at a party and eating cookies & drinking juice

She was watching her weight and said no to the food and drink, remember?

I think Jesse was 'dead' by Dixie's arrival.

He was absolutely.

Technically no. Now, please sit down before reading this one... Jesse, while dead and ushering Gillian around the afterlife in her mission to let Ryan know that Chris Stamp was his father (even though it ended up he wasn't) was around Tad & Dixie a lot. He saved Tad from being hung by Leslie Coulson, turned back time and everything. And now he's alive. Dixie's alive, and hell even Gilian who has no more heart and a giant hole in her head may be too. Dagnabbit.

Yep the dreaded Jean Passanante year (after Agnes left as co-headwriter)--though I believe the Jesse turns back time bit was actually the Fall when, amidst rumours of her firing, Jean Passanante broke her contract and left AMC (and was shockingly picked up by ATWT) and for a good four months AMC had no HW, until Culliton was hired. Probably my least fave era of AMC ever (which is really saying somethign considering Pratt's last year, some of McTavish, the Rayfield mess...)

I agree. It is so odd to me that Krystal has survived doing nothing for the better part of seven years yet they killed Babe and then virtually brought her back as Marissa. lol. Krystal only works as a supporting character and the writers have seemed to have lost sight on who to have her support so she is virtually just useless. They wrote her into a corner as soon as they changed the purpose of the character. She was originally supposed to be a neglectful scheming mother who didn't care about her child.

I apologize to everyone--I really need to learn to be patient and read the entire thread before replying as I posted all of that, after you (along with other points that people mentioned already...), instead of just replying to each message as I read it Oh well.

Its unfortunate the writers became so lost with the character and in the process made her virtually useless, because Eakes is such a powerhouse of an actress whose talents have been wasted grossly the last 2 or 3 years. Her last slew of good material was the months after Babe died and her turning to David. I think she probably is the most talented actress on AMC currently next to Morgan.

I do think Eakes is incredibly likable but I just don't think she works as this Martin matriarch they were trying to pass her off as for an indefinite amount of time. It's like she is this just a place holder for Ruth/Myrtle and every female comes to her with their problems or issues and it just doesn't really work. It's like they decided to give up on her and just force her into this role as the mother figure to all the women of AMC (Dixie, Krystal, Angie, Amanda, Kathy, etc.) I think in theory she could have worked as more as a fascinating character but she also is older as well so there is that to consider too. It feels like she was just written into this corner because she just had to be there regardless as to the why's and the road that led her there.

Krystal was a rewrite from the start. Remember her first scene, Babe was kinda hesitant to talk much about her, and we saw Babe call her and Krystal was whoring it up in some trashy motel, the implication was she would now go to Pine Valley because her daughter had scored a rich guy and she could live off that. But as soon as she showed up next, basically, she was pretty much how she is now, albeit still a bit more trashy, but with a heart of gold who would do anything for her daughter. The implication before was she essentially abandoned Babe as much as she could.

Frankly, that original characterisation would have made a lot more sense, and made Babe's character make a lot more sense (and even maybe more likeable--although I liked Babe fine).

I agree with this. It certainly made more sense that Babe latched onto people who made her feel more valued then she probably felt she was at home if Krystal was a neglectful mother who had abandoned her. It actually makes her sleeping with Jaime the first night she met him more plausible because she had mommy issues where her mother abandoned her/was ignoring her. It also would have made her marriages to Paul and JR make more sense to. She would be jumping at any person who gave her the time of day and who promised to love her forever, which she never got. But they threw that out and she just became a character with poor impulse control and a monstrous lack of responsibility and a non-existent case of right and wrong.

Yep, she was trailer trash and Babe was more sympathetic that way. She didn't give a rat's ass about poor Babe, feeling lonely with her billionaire hubby. She was having some tawdry affair in a no-tell motel. Heck, even when she showed up in town she gave that doctor a BJ to help fake the paternity of Babe's unborn child. THAT scene I will never forget.

Yeah they pretty much white washed all of Krystal's backstory and shaped her into a lioness mother who loved her daughter fiercely.

I can't remember, who did he kill under Broderick?

He gave Ricky, the boy Laura was forced to do porn with, a lethal overdose. They also implied he killed Laura's mother.

They whitewash everybody. The erase the "character" from all the characters til you have this beige slop of a boring show. I miss the nutjobs, kooks, psychos, nerds, chubbies, and misfits on soaps. The old Character Actors. Half the cast that made AMC so great would NEVER be hired in this day and age.

Eric I hope you keep making your points even if someone else did. We all say the same stuff over and over anyway. I'm glad you enjoy Lorraine's work...it's a good balance for someone like me who is more skeptical. I think the Orpheus idea had a lot of potential, under different circumstances.

Thanks Carl! I definitely don't want to give the impression that I don't recognize her flaws. And I agree with you that the story would have much more potential (even if it is a bit too sci fi for my usual taste) under other circumstances.

I know we always wonder on here how much Agnes is involved, but it sounds like for these final months she IS actively involved, in *some* capacity. I'd love to know what she thinks of it. (and as much as I worship at the altar of St Aggie, I freely admit she's not completely immune to these kinds of stories--or Broderick's supervillain scenarios--herself, maybe it was even her idea... lol )

Edited August 24, 201114 yr by EricMontreal22

The real problem with AMC now is that it is so dense and yet so vacuous. There is a ton of character baggage but this baggage just seems to manifest in the same stories again and again and again with JR or Kendall. It just seems to swallow writers alive. That's why I am looking forward to what AMC can be with a new life.

Edited August 24, 201114 yr by CarlD2

They whitewash everybody. The erase the "character" from all the characters til you have this beige slop of a boring show. I miss the nutjobs, kooks, psychos, nerds, chubbies, and misfits on soaps. The old Character Actors. Half the cast that made AMC so great would NEVER be hired in this day and age.

Yep, and this isn't something I would blame on the writers--even Pratt. It really is one of the major things that has killed soaps I think. I have a friend who just got into the ABC soaps, from me, back in Feb--and I think he gets sick of me always going on about how much better they used to be, but even he has said on numerous times (and I actually feel he's a bit too blind in his love of the shows, even without the history longterm viewers have) that too many of the people look the same, etc, etc. Soap characters used to have interesting professions too--even if we still didn't see them at their professions as much, they weren't all random businessmen/women or cops or lawyers or doctors--you had musicians, etc. And the Agnes Nixon soaps, particularly AMC, really did thrive on the over the top character roles (which it seems the established soap press in the 70s resented her for--but I think that's why some call her style Dickensian as he also wrote with a mixture of bland but rootable young lovers, almost over the top demonic villains, older maternal/paternal figures, and near-caricature comic and villainous characters, which I think could describe AMC perfectly circa 1980)

The real problem with AMC now is that it is so dense and yet so vacuous. There is a ton of character baggage but this baggage just seems to manifest in the same stories again and again and again with JR or Kendall. It just seems to swallow writers alive. That's why I am looking forward to what AMC can be with a new life.

Right. I do think Broderick has helped in small amounts--making Jake/Amanda actually rootable for instance, going a long way to make Tad likeable (though this David hate again isn't helping), etc. But it does need a complete canvas overhaul. I only closely watch AMC and OLTL right now and it's funny, AMC always feels like it has way too small a cast to me--which ahs been a problem for a long time (which is why, even when they have nothing to do, I welcome the occasional scene with, say, Scott and Madison). On the other hand OLTL seems to have way too big a cast, with characters who feel useless popping up with useless storylines.

Speaking of, why wasn't Opal at that odd women's party today? Just a few well placed comic lines from her would have made the show that much better--it's details like that, that really make soaps.