TV creators ace face time

[Toups]

Great article about how more showrunners are becoming stars.

TV creators ace face time: Fans turn showrunners into Hollywood stars

[DRW50]

The most blatant with this was probably Joss Whedon, who became so known for who he was that his shows all became afterthoughts, just generic templates for his issues. I think that he started believing his own hype way too much after a few years of Buffy and it's one of the reasons he has not had a successful show (in quality or ratings, in my opinion) since.

Aaron Sorkin was another one of those, until he lashed out at fans. After that he wasn't really as much of a darling.

[EricMontreal22]

I'm a big Joss fan though I think the Church of Whedon fan community is... deluded (for instance they don't seem to realize that Joss had very little to do with the day by day showrunning on Angel--it first being David Greenwalt, then TIm Minear for the best seasons--Tim also largely running this season of Dollhouse). I actually prefered Angel in the end to Buffy and often wondered if that was why. I don't think Joss believes his own hype exactly--he's far from a Sorken when you see him interviewed--he still realizes how lucky he is to be in the industry. I think the problem is though he does have such a blind fan following that networks bank on these shows that really will only ever be small cult shows (Buffy got off to a bigger start--though of course its ratings were still always WB small--because it was a TEEN show--adults took a while to discover it--and it built its mythology slowly). He prob should do a low budget show for SyFy or something now, frankly (and I don't mean that as a diss really--it's just the expectations attached to his name can't live up to the kinda non mainstream work he's increasingly interested in doing). But like a lot of show runners he's only as good as his team (I think Tim Minear in particular is a huge talent, but I do have to admit his work on non Whedon shows has been underwhelming)

I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the internet as well--people didn't really KNOW who the showrunners were early on (I guess there were exceptions like Rod Serling, and in the 80s Steven Bochco and his associate David E Kelly got known on their own). The first REALLY cult one I can think of in this modern sense tough was Chris Carter, who I think was worse than Whedon at falling for his own hype.

[DRW50]

I forgot about Chris Carter. There was a lot of hoopla over him, at least until Millenium.

A lot of the showrunners get as much hate as love, they are quickly turned against, especially when they say or do stupid things in public. There's a difference between a showrunner who is treated as some sort of god and who is put high above any of their shows, as happens to Whedon, and someone who is known as more of a lightning rod for blame, like those men who drove the Star Trek shows into the ground, or Shonda Rimes.

[EricMontreal22]

There is a difference--but what is it? To be fair Whedon gets some hate- More and more I think people who aren't already fans see his shows as some cult they can't break into lol.

I admit a showrunner does mean a lot to me--I only watched True Blood at first cuz of Alan Ball. And, odder, only started watching the Dr Who revamp when it started (I was never a fan of the classic ones) because at the time I gave anything Russell Davies wrote a chance (I admit Who has made me a bit less of a "blind fan" of his).

[Sylph]

And it only hurts them: once people proclaim them to be something, it all plummets into depths.

[JackPeyton]

Angel was at its best when Greenwalt had the most control. But after season 4 it was pointless. That show foundation lied within David & Charisma. Not so much as Angel/Cordy in a relationship, but it was the two of them. That unique dynamic, thats what was the most fascinating about that show. It was also no overburdened with crazy fanbases. Season 4 was, from a story standpoint, worse than season 5 but i would watch season 4 over season 5 because season 5 just doesnt feel like Angel to me.

[EricMontreal22]

Jeffrey Bell was showrunner for Season 5. Tim Minear seasons 3-4, Greenwalt seasons 1-2. 3 was the best for me.

[JackPeyton]

Season 1 & 2 were the best, IMHO. But 3 is my fave. Thats the real angel/cordy angst. I also think they pulled off the other world story well in season 2/3 with Gru and bringing Fred in. My only real complaint about that show is how under used Christian Kane was. Lindsay should have become a bigger threat earlier on.

And as much as i hate season 5, the 100th episode was perfection. So glad SMG couldnt/woudlnt do it and they brought CC in and gave an end to Cordelia.

[Sylph]

Wasn't Marti Noxon responsible for a lot of stuff in the last seasons of Buffy?

[DRW50]

The Wesley/Fred/Gunn story had such bad writing, and I never thought either of them had chemistry with her. I guess because they were so busy trying to make Fred "cute." She was only interesting when they killed her.

[EricMontreal22]

Aww I liked Fred, but never as a romantic partner I admit. But yeah Illyria (sp?) was one of the best aspects of Season 5. the bigprob I had with Season 5 was they were told to make the show more self contained--each episode. And at first they did though by the end they dropped that--but that was one reason for the big restructure. It had some good moments (and some awful ones, I'm with other Buffyverse fans thinking the trip to Italy comic episode, the one that even Joss says they fucked up and he wasn't paying attention when they showed Andrew as straight, was one of the worseepisodes ever, despite the funny Italian lady ).

Sylph, Noxon was showrunner for season 6 when Joss was busy with... Something else (was Firefly then? Or the X Men comics? LOL). Season 6 divides fans a lot--the drug/magic metaphor for Willow was way too obvious but I admit I likedhow dark it was, and it's my fave of he later seasons aso think ending the show with the "Big Bad" being Willow, ie one oftheir wn made much more sense than going on with the pointless Season 7. Marti left the sow completely for Season 7 to have her baby and for all those fans who hatd her work on Season 6, I think they have to go rewatch Season 7 and see what a jumbled mess it was (it had two conflicting concepts--one was tofcus on the younger characters and do lighter Season 1 style stories, the other was to do a full on "itcomes from below" super dark series finale, and the two did NOT mix) and that maybe some of that had to do with Marti not being there.

JK, agreed about the character of Christian, although what they did do with him, I liked (the sorta mini redemptions, etc, never quite being sure where he stood).

[DRW50]

They didn't mean for Andrew to be straight? That's odd...I always thought he was one of those characters they did their best to make sure wasn't ever actually seen as gay. There were a lot of hints, but I remember when he had some fantasy about some romance novel type of scenario, both Buffy and Spike were glamorized and sexy (Buffy hair flowing in the breeze, Spike shirtless). He was devoted to Warren but that wasn't sexual. Then didn't someone hint that he might have had feelings for Dawn? Or was that just bad fanfic?

Buffy and Angel were shows that worked hard to be seen as so hip and cutting edge but, like all WB shows, that was generally in a white, heterosexual universe. They never knew what to do with Gunn, and the only gay man they ever had on Buffy was killed at his high school graduation and never mentioned again.

[EricMontreal22]

Carl you musta missed much of season 7--they all but said Andrew was gay and Joss has said many times he thought it was obvious he was. He is in the comics Joss handles too--and someone recently wrote in about his breif appearance in Angel with all those ladies and Joss says that was one thing he just let slip by and deeply regrets. Still most fans caught on--I guess you're just so cynical you decided the signs were unintentional He NEVER had feeling for Dawn and besides his love for Warren (which in Season 7 they all but admitted was sexual) his worship for Spike went beyond hero worship.

Joss wrote this in to some comments on an AfterElton ten fave gay characters on sci fi TV: It has to be said: the Andrew scene in "The Girl in Question" was a victim of me dropping the ball. I specifically said there should be a party of men AND women, all glamorous and Italian but with the Men wearing the sexier clothing, waiting for Andrew. I wasn't there when it was shot, and didn't have the time/money/energy to change it after the fact, though it made me crazy when it was all women as his entourage.

Andrew's sexuality in Season 6 Buffy, is always on the cusp of self-awareness because Andrew is stunted emotionally and because it's hilarious.

[end quote]

I don't think Buffy and Angel tried all that hard to be hip, except in marketing--again you can be so cynical . It was true to its own vision, and Anel did have Lorne even if he never had a bf

[DRW50]

Didn't Lorne flirt with men and women and basically say he was bi?

I did watch most of season 7, I just don't remember a lot of it. I can see where they sort of hinted about Andrew but Whedon not focusing that much on making sure Andrew was seen as gay (even the Angel brief mentions men and women) makes me wonder whether it was ever something they definitely had in mind.

I think the Whedon shows were often about hipness, which is what people responded to. When they started taking themselves seriously, the shows began to decline. Like season 4 of Buffy, a hollow and cynical season, emotionally dead, with sourcracks in place of wisecracks and extremely unsympathetic, shallow characters.