2 hours ago, P.J. said:

But now I can't stop imagining Vanessa (acting like her younger self) cutting Dinah down to size.

This is what I really want to see! Dinah has deserved it so many times.

21 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I can't remember if Patti was unhappy, but I think her firing was almost two years after that story started. From what some have said, she was getting big for her britches around then, arguing with fans or being online (never a great idea). I think, given that Drew was gone, she was just an easy choice to fire to free up money, similar to Anthony Addabbo, who was fired at the same time.  

Was this before or after Bilitis did her stint on AW?

Edited September 24Sep 24 by Stevel

11 minutes ago, Stevel said:

Was this before or after Bilitis did her stint on AW?

About five or six years later.

Thanks for your synopsis @alwaysAMC 

I wonder if this was the last soap story to revolve around a VHS tape (probably not).

Reading through your breakdown of the Annie downfall I'm reminded again of just how far out they went with her by the end. I'd forgotten they went so deep into rewriting her past as some kind of schemer before she ever met Josh. I don't even think it was done to make viewers unsympathetic to her, probably just as a big shock value moment to trigger her downfall, but the choice still robs the power of the original story, of viewers seeing her slowly lose her dignity and sanity due to "always." One of those story choices you can't think too hard about. 

Pam Long likely would have had more sympathy for Annie in the writing, because she identified so strongly with Josh and Reva, she would also identify with those who were aggrieved by them. She knew you had to have the full fallout to make them rooting characters.

There wasn't that type of effort here because they didn't really have that much investment in the characters, including Reva. I suppose at least they did, intentionally or not, take this feud to the ultimate level, on both sides, instead of having Reva as the old radio play heroine waiting for the door to be broken down.

Edited September 24Sep 24 by DRW50

14 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

My thinking was that the show was in an odd place during her era where there weren't a lot of females in that age group outside of Michelle... and with her trapped in the Santos orbit.. it made sense to have another female character in that age range to have some focus.

It's just a shame that Drew wasn't revealed to be Ross's niece until after Dinah left the show since I imagine the two of them would have had a lot to talk about.. plus it was a shame that Phillip wasn't interacting with his Marler relatives by that point because I think he and Drew would have clicked.

Phillip was tied to the Coopers by that point.  I didn't get why Amanda was even created as Phillip was constantly never home and always at the freaking diner.

I thought the Annie/Alan wedding was so underwhelming. Her being married to some stranger made no sense.

Edited September 24Sep 24 by MLH

4 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Thanks for your synopsis @alwaysAMC 

I wonder if this was the last soap story to revolve around a VHS tape (probably not).

Reading through your breakdown of the Annie downfall I'm reminded again of just how far out they went with her by the end. I'd forgotten they went so deep into rewriting her past as some kind of schemer before she ever met Josh. I don't even think it was done to make viewers unsympathetic to her, probably just as a big shock value moment to trigger her downfall, but the choice still robs the power of the original story, of viewers seeing her slowly lose her dignity and sanity due to "always." One of those story choices you can't think too hard about. 

Pam Long likely would have had more sympathy for Annie in the writing, because she identified so strongly with Josh and Reva, she would also identify with those who were aggrieved by them. She knew you had to have the full fallout to make them rooting characters.

There wasn't that type of effort here because they didn't really have that much investment in the characters, including Reva. I suppose at least they did, intentionally or not, take this feud to the ultimate level, on both sides, instead of having Reva as the old radio play heroine waiting for the door to be broken down.

That's a very good point.  I think back to when Annie first came on and how much I loved her and Josh together, because she seemed like a sweet girl and was such a caring step-mother... so to think she was always a schemer and was essentially a fugitive on the loose, is odd.

I guess the only thread I could pull on is her past with Rick in Chicago when it was revealed she was an alcoholic. I'm just curious now if Eddie was before or after Rick and whether Rick would have known about Eddie (assuming not). They didn't have Rick in this storyline at all towards the end, so we never got his perspective over Annie's final descent.

On 9/23/2025 at 10:46 PM, alwaysAMC said:

This is what I really want to see! Dinah has deserved it so many times.

That's what's wrong with the entire Dinah/Vanessa dynamic (with Moniz and Tognoni in the role), is that Vanessa rarely stands up to the twit. As **** says,  Dinah only ever cared  about Vanessa when she was dying. The writers only seemed to use Dinah as a borderline psychopath. As good actresses as I think Moniz and Tognoni are, they deserved better. 

Maeve has a couple of good scenes with Tognoni where she finally just shuts Dinah's endless pity party down, but it's not nearly enough and it's way overdue.

 

I stumbled upon Coop's death. OY VEY. Deas and Frankie D are chewing up the scenery. It's like they've forgotten how to act.

Edited September 25Sep 25 by P.J.

45 minutes ago, P.J. said:

That's what's wrong with the entire Dinah/Vanessa dynamic (with Moniz and Tognoni in the role), is that Vanessa rarely stands up to the twit. As **** says,  Dinah only ever cared  about Vanessa when she was dying. The writers only seemed to use Dinah as a borderline psychopath. As good actresses as I think Moniz and Tognoni are, they deserved better. 

Maeve has a couple of good scenes with Tognoni where she finally just shuts Dinah's endless pity party down, but it's not nearly enough and it's way overdue.

 

I stumbled upon Coop's death. OY VEY. Deas and Frankie D are chewing up the scenery. It's like they've forgotten how to act.

This will be a bit spoilery for alwaysAMC, as it comes in mid-1998, but we do get at least one great scene where Dinah finally crosses a line and Vanessa strikes back:

 

At least I could watch the first half, until **** shows up. Van at least tried to serve Dinah up a dose of reality....although I always thought there was more between Dinah and ^^^^ than they'd admit.

Oh, while we're talking about shared lovers---are Beth and Lizzie the only  mother/daughter duo who shared two lovers? The limit is usually one.

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

Oh, while we're talking about shared lovers---are Beth and Lizzie the only  mother/daughter duo who shared two lovers? The limit is usually one.

Thanks for thinking of me @prefab1  

Hmm, we got very close with Gilly/Vivian (I'd almost just count it considering how gross it was). 

Nothing else comes to mind on GL right now, but on AMC, pretty much Hayley/Arlene with Alec (Grant A) haha.

17 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

Thanks for thinking of me @prefab1  

Hmm, we got very close with Gilly/Vivian (I'd almost just count it considering how gross it was). 

Nothing else comes to mind on GL right now, but on AMC, pretty much Hayley/Arlene with Alec (Grant A) haha.

GL has three women who ran through families (Reva-Billy, HB, Josh and Kyle: Harley-AlanMichael, Phillip, Gus: Blake-Alan, Phillip, AlanMichael). And guys who slept with mothers/daughters (Bill did it twice, Matt, Ross, Mark Evans, Jeffrey) 

Although none of those situations were truly a triangle. It's hard to count HB/Reva/Kyle as one when it's clear that all that's keeping Reva in her marriage to HB is some sort of obligation. Ross and Holly are over before he sleeps with Blake. And Matt had sex with Dinah after he and Van were divorced.

I guess Beth was just out of options, or the writers decided to up the drama quotient for Coop's death.

2 hours ago, P.J. said:

At least I could watch the first half, until **** shows up. Van at least tried to serve Dinah up a dose of reality....although I always thought there was more between Dinah and ^^^^ than they'd admit.

Oh, while we're talking about shared lovers---are Beth and Lizzie the only  mother/daughter duo who shared two lovers? The limit is usually one.

Oh yeah, they teased the possibility of Matt/Dinah hate sex for years. There's an early scene (a couple of days after Dinah and Matt first meet) where he's still living in the boarding house, and she barges into the shower room to yell at him, and he walks out naked, basically daring her to look at his body. And then later in Vanessa's near-death It's a Wonderful Life fantasy, she imagines a scenario where Matt and Dinah get married (but still hate each other). I think during the Wheeler era they finally do have sex, but since both Matt and Vanessa are on recurring by that point, the impact is somewhat muted. 

18 minutes ago, prefab1 said:

Oh yeah, they teased the possibility of Matt/Dinah hate sex for years. There's an early scene (a couple of days after Dinah and Matt first meet) where he's still living in the boarding house, and she barges into the shower room to yell at him, and he walks out naked, basically daring her to look at his body. And then later in Vanessa's near-death It's a Wonderful Life fantasy, she imagines a scenario where Matt and Dinah get married (but still hate each other). I think during the Wheeler era they finally do have sex, but since both Matt and Vanessa are on recurring by that point, the impact is somewhat muted. 

I've felt this haha. I've seen those first two scenes you mentioned, and they teased it for quite a long time when Dinah did first show up in 1995. She even tried to seduce and blackmail him and he usually held his ground, but it was definitely teased. 

34 minutes ago, P.J. said:

GL has three women who ran through families (Reva-Billy, HB, Josh and Kyle: Harley-AlanMichael, Phillip, Gus: Blake-Alan, Phillip, AlanMichael). And guys who slept with mothers/daughters (Bill did it twice, Matt, Ross, Mark Evans, Jeffrey) 

Although none of those situations were truly a triangle.

 

I knew GL was pretty fluid (is that the right term? haha) in their hookups and relationships; everyone seemed to have their turn, so I figured there had to be good examples.  I haven't gotten to Gus yet, so curious to know how he's related to A-M and Phillip!  I didn't realize Blake and Alan had a history, eww (unless it's later/toward the end of the series, but even still, ewww).

12 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

I've felt this haha. I've seen those first two scenes you mentioned, and they teased it for quite a long time when Dinah did first show up in 1995. She even tried to seduce and blackmail him and he usually held his ground, but it was definitely teased. 

I knew GL was pretty fluid (is that the right term? haha) in their hookups and relationships; everyone seemed to have their turn, so I figured there had to be good examples.  I haven't gotten to Gus yet, so curious to know how he's related to A-M and Phillip!  I didn't realize Blake and Alan had a history, eww (unless it's later/toward the end of the series, but even still, ewww).

No, Alan and Blake happened when (or I guess technically before) Blake came to Springfield. Gus is Alan's son by some nameless chick.

I'm not sure GL was any more or less "fluid" with relationships than any other show, but maybe it feels like it because there's not that one couple that just anchors the show and weathers everything (like ATWT's Bob and Kim). You'd really almost have to go back to Bill and Bert for any stable couple. Other than Ed and Mo in the '80's/early '90's.

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

GL has three women who ran through families (Reva-Billy, HB, Josh and Kyle: Harley-AlanMichael, Phillip, Gus: Blake-Alan, Phillip, AlanMichael). And guys who slept with mothers/daughters (Bill did it twice, Matt, Ross, Mark Evans, Jeffrey) 

Wait, there's more:

Cassie slept with brothers, Richard and Edmund. 

Olivia slept with father/son, Alan and Phillip. (She probably only missed out on Alan Michael because he wasn't around much at the time).

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

lthough none of those situations were truly a triangle.

I would say the Alan/Olivia/Phillip situation was a triangle because she was with Phillip while she was married to Alan.

The one time they did a true triangle (Amanda/Mark/Jennifer) it sucked, so maybe that's why they stayed away from that kind of story.

13 minutes ago, P.J. said:

I'm not sure GL was any more or less "fluid" with relationships than any other show, but maybe it feels like it because there's not that one couple that just anchors the show and weathers everything (like ATWT's Bob and Kim). You'd really almost have to go back to Bill and Bert for any stable couple. Other than Ed and Mo in the '80's/early '90's.

That was a big hole in the show. Even though Bob and Kim were the stable couple, they still had storylines. They weren't always just in the background. Bill and Bert were constantly at odds with each other. It is possible to have that kind of married couple on a soap, but GL never found the right pairing once they ended Bert and Bill's marriage.