14 hours ago, P.J. said:

I think it was as much due to not wanting to sully **** up. His rather shady past (coughcabanaboycough) along with some unwitting dupe in a black market ring, or whatever it was, meant he now had to be squeaky clean for the fangurl fantasy set. Blake and Ross could be dirtier, simply because they had established histories to fall back on. Better writers might've given **** some kind of purpose outside of Vanessa

Yes, I think they have these two on contract, so they put them in this throw away story with no consequences..ala the Nola/Buzz/Jenna story. Its clear at this point that all energy is to go to the next Reva story, and actually Van gets off easy as opposed to the dumb stuff they give Jeva to do to stay on 4 days a week. I never understood anything about Matt, does he have a life besides Van? The only other character he interacts with is Josh, and that is rarely of any substance. He never seemded much interested in what Bridget, Nola or J. were up to, besides thinking he had the moral high ground in the Nola/Buzz dumbness. He had little to no interaction with Bill, he just berates Dinah, all the while wanting to f*ck her , which if they had gone that way earlier would be make him sleazy but at least a bit more interesting, and given Van Eason to kick both to the curb. Instead of bringing India in as a third we know is not going to last (I LOVE India she deserved more then this) they should have gone with Van Ross turning to each other ( we all know that Jordans issues at this point are going to keep him off contact so Billy is out.)

I just watched a scene of Reva during the Cain storyline, as it was just outed that she was the woman on the bridge in Fletcher's stories, and while the material is still bad Kim is so much better then she is this go around. Reva is still the woman that all these men and characters revolve around (Maeve even apologizes to Reva for marrying Kyle..WTF) but Kimmer doesn't make Reva the sanctimonious bore she is during Rauch..she keeps Reva on earth, and isn't afraid to let us know that Reva is not perfect. The writing isnt as slanted as it is during Rauch so that helps, but what a difference Kimmers' acting is.

16 hours ago, Spoon said:

@alwaysAMC I totally forgot about that day-player that Ross hooked up with, it didn't last long. I think years later I retconned it in my head that that was doris wolfe. I'm guessing that was just a stop-gap until January when a familiar woman enters the Ross-Blake-Ben picture. Overall, January 1999 is a pretty good month coming up for you.

Ohh good, I can't wait! :)

15 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I remembered her mostly because she was played by Ava Haddad, who was one of the better Cassies on OLTL (maybe the best). I guess Rauch remembered her. I wonder if there were further plans for her.

I see that this was her last acting role.

I think the lack of chemistry was one issue and another was not wanting to dirty Beth up too much...and also Matt and Vanessa were not central characters so there wasn't as much story. The next sucker they pair her up with makes more sense for Beth's upcoming story (don't want to give too much away).

Interesting! I can't wait to see who it is :)

@P.J. LOL - you never disappoint with your hatred for **** :) I'm not sure I'm ready to see how bad he can get.... as you know, so far, I think he's a great guy and I really like him. I know that can't last forever though, so maybe one day I'll join in your feelings about him haha.

4 hours ago, alwaysAMC said:

@P.J. LOL - you never disappoint with your hatred for **** :) I'm not sure I'm ready to see how bad he can get.... as you know, so far, I think he's a great guy and I really like him. I know that can't last forever though, so maybe one day I'll join in your feelings about him haha.

LOL...while I find him a dullard, and a complete waste of Vanessa's time, you'd have to FF to like '06/'07. It must be '07...JvD's last year is '06. Van and **** leave in '00, and it's not until after JvD leaves that Maeve makes more regular appearances.

4 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

Yes, I think they have these two on contract, so they put them in this throw away story with no consequences..ala the Nola/Buzz/Jenna story. Its clear at this point that all energy is to go to the next Reva story, and actually Van gets off easy as opposed to the dumb stuff they give Jeva to do to stay on 4 days a week.

given Van Eason to kick both to the curb. Instead of bringing India in as a third we know is not going to last (I LOVE India she deserved more then this) they should have gone with Van Ross turning to each other ( we all know that Jordans issues at this point are going to keep him off contact so Billy is out.)

I just watched a scene of Reva during the Cain storyline, as it was just outed that she was the woman on the bridge in Fletcher's stories, and while the material is still bad Kim is so much better then she is this go around. Reva is still the woman that all these men and characters revolve around (Maeve even apologizes to Reva for marrying Kyle..WTF) but Kimmer doesn't make Reva the sanctimonious bore she is during Rauch..she keeps Reva on earth, and isn't afraid to let us know that Reva is not perfect. The writing isnt as slanted as it is during Rauch so that helps, but what a difference Kimmers' acting is.

I do wonder if, when all was said and done, Kim would've traded San Crud for some really good writing.

Ah, if only Van and Ross had turned to each other. Even if Maeve had still left, at least Vanessa could've shed herself of that parasite.

It's hard for me to separate my feels about Reva into eras. Earlier Reva might not be sanctimonious, exactly, but I find her incredibly self-centered.

I actually liked Reva as a character during the two year period when Josh was off the canvas. It kind of opened up the character to different stories/characters especially in 1986 when she was trying to build a life on her own terms and was interacting with characters she didn't normally interact with.

2 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I actually liked Reva as a character during the two year period when Josh was off the canvas. It kind of opened up the character to different stories/characters especially in 1986 when she was trying to build a life on her own terms and was interacting with characters she didn't normally interact with.

Reva and Josh were always more interesting without each other, maybe aside from Josh in 93-95, and that was just a dreary period for many.

4 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Reva and Josh were always more interesting without each other, maybe aside from Josh in 93-95, and that was just a dreary period for many.

I remember at the time that Josh returned in 1993, the show runners even said had Beth E and Mark Derwin opted to stay as Harley/Mallet that the natural thing would have been to do a Josh/Harley/Mallet triangle.. but because they were leaving, they had to figure out what else to do. I thought to myself 'You just admitted you hvae no idea what to do with Josh so why even bring him back beyond just a visit'.

With that being said, his first weeks back in 1993 were pretty good with Harley going off on him for the way he ditched her to go after the ghost of Reva and Mallet/Josh instantly not liking one another at first sight... and combine that with Dylan/Julie/Hart/Bridget going on.. and there was a lot of potential for good content.

The show bought him on, but instead of doing what Pam Long did with Maureen Garrett in early 1989 (slowly easing her back onto the canvas and test her out with the characters)... Josh was saddled with a brand new character instead of being tested with the other already established characters (the show ended up doing that in 1994 with chemistry tests with Jenna, Holly, and Lucy before finally hitting pay direct with Annie)

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

I remember at the time that Josh returned in 1993, the show runners even said had Beth E and Mark Derwin opted to stay as Harley/Mallet that the natural thing would have been to do a Josh/Harley/Mallet triangle.. but because they were leaving, they had to figure out what else to do. I thought to myself 'You just admitted you hvae no idea what to do with Josh so why even bring him back beyond just a visit'.

I think Robert was brought back due to Jordan's abrupt departure. It can't be coincidence that Josh's return coincides with Geoffrey Scott's debut as Billy. Especially when Josh hadn't been back for Billy and Van's wedding just a few weeks before.

8 hours ago, P.J. said:

LOL...while I find him a dullard, and a complete waste of Vanessa's time, you'd have to FF to like '06/'07. It must be '07...JvD's last year is '06. Van and **** leave in '00, and it's not until after JvD leaves that Maeve makes more regular appearances.

So wait, if it takes that long... why didn't you like him in the beginning... what about their pairing did you hate between 94-98 (before the Beth thing)? If Billy wasn't going to come back full-time, who did you want Van with during this timeframe, or what did you want to see Van do instead of get with Matt?

BTW, I haven't seen Billy since the Cassie and then later early clone storyline... I wonder what was going on then and why Clarke wasn't coming back for a bit.

5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Reva and Josh were always more interesting without each other, maybe aside from Josh in 93-95, and that was just a dreary period for many.

I haven't seen 93-94 YET (as you know), but I really was a fan of Josh and Annie in the very beginning of 95 before Annie turned addict and then crazy. She was a sweet young heroine of sorts and he was a handsome man next door. For someone who didn't know Josh/Reva outside of clips and basic GL knowledge, I really thought Josh/Annie were something special. Then ghost Reva came and I was like oh, ok, here we go...

4 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

So wait, if it takes that long... why didn't you like him in the beginning... what about their pairing did you hate between 94-98 (before the Beth thing)? If Billy wasn't going to come back full-time, who did you want Van with during this timeframe, or what did you want to see Van do instead of get with Matt?

Not to jump on this, but my biggest issue with the relationship is how it comes to define Vanessa, to the point of nothing being left of her. I did not hate Matt, but for someone who was a rough character when he met Vanessa, I thought he was sanctimonious. I also disliked the Matt/Dinah dynamics and how clear it was multiple regimes wanted them to sleep together but didn't have the guts to go through. And he's just not a compelling character. He could have been, with better writing, as I think Kurt was...OK when he got some tougher material later on (no spoilers), but the Matt we got was not that.

(this is just my opinion of course - I know they had a lot of fans and I don't remember ever hearing of them being crazy like some fan groups, other than driving Paul Rauch up the wall)

I didn't really care about who Vanessa ended up with in those years - my favorite Vanessa story (the custody battle over Peter) - had her alone. If she had gotten with someone I would have paired her with someone who was on her level of success, didn't feel threatened by her, could stand up to her, but also accept that she would push back on him. And someone with a good sense of humor as Vanessa, admittedly never a character prone to hilarity, needed that to balance her life.

(also someone who would not have sexual tension with Dinah - preferably, someone who would rather put her in a box and send her away)

I might have recast Justin Marler again. This would cause tension with Ross, as Justin was his brother, and they could bring back Sam, who would become like a daughter to Vanessa, causing tension with Dinah. I'd also be interested in seeing how Philip and Vanessa interacted due to Justin as I don't remember them ever being that involved in story.

Edited 11 hours ago11 hr by DRW50

Which crazed fanbase was the most toxic? Mattesa? Rassie? Manny?

3 hours ago, Spoon said:

Which crazed fanbase was the most toxic? Mattesa? Rassie? Manny?

9 hours ago, alwaysAMC said:

So wait, if it takes that long... why didn't you like him in the beginning... what about their pairing did you hate between 94-98 (before the Beth thing)? If Billy wasn't going to come back full-time, who did you want Van with during this timeframe, or what did you want to see Van do instead of get with Matt?

BTW, I haven't seen Billy since the Cassie and then later early clone storyline... I wonder what was going on then and why Clarke wasn't coming back for a bit.

I haven't seen 93-94 YET (as you know), but I really was a fan of Josh and Annie in the very beginning of 95 before Annie turned addict and then crazy. She was a sweet young heroine of sorts and he was a handsome man next door. For someone who didn't know Josh/Reva outside of clips and basic GL knowledge, I really thought Josh/Annie were something special. Then ghost Reva came and I was like oh, ok, here we go...

I don't like a lot about this era. The writing, the tone, the casting---not a lot of it feels like Guiding Light to me. (ATWT is also going through a rough patch. There's a malaise at P&G, apparently) As hard as they tried to give me reason to like ****, I never do. He's the equivalent of Chelsea, a Reardon-in-name-only. **** doesn't have any defining characteristics---he's simply written to be the working class schmo, of the Harlequin romance variety, who's going to heal Van's heart. It may not be KMcK's fault that's the way I see him (or that his character was written), but I also don't find anything about his acting that stands out. **** doesn't do anything. It's not his fault the relaunch of the Reardons fell flat, and both Nola and Bridget are gone leaving him with only Van's circle of family and friends to interact with. (and even that is sparse.) But it really makes him totally extraneous. A fact not lost years later on Wheeler, who pretty much consigns Matt to the dustbin and hell of being Dinah's occasional talk-to.

I wouldn't go as far as @DRW50 and say **** ends up defining Vanessa, but all he's really there to do is lecture Vanessa and make her feel insecure. Vanessa F-in Chamberlain knows herself, and doesn't need **** okaying when she goes back to work, or judging how much time she's spending with Maureen (newsflash, dickhead, babies crawl for months) or how she deals with Dinah. (The Vanessa I know would not have put up with Dinah's crap either, not when she'd raised Bill entirely differently, but whatever. I'd argue Dinah does a lot more to weaken and redefine Vanessa, while **** is just the parasite occupying Van's bed, but that's me.)

Vanessa had fought death off twice, **** can take his lifecoaching duties and shove them.

You're right---Jordan is not on a lot during this time. I don't think he's even formally recurring until after Maeve departs, as (I assume) TPTB have reestablished a trust in him, and Billy is there to anchor Bill (GL especially seems to believe any child needs at least one parent in town, if at all possible). At first they used him for the nostalgia factor, and sort of like a trump card when it made story sense. A lot of what went on with the clone didn't make sense, and wouldn't have worked if Billy had constantly been in town and questioning WTF was wrong with Reva.

The only realistic alternative at this time would've been Ross, but for multitudes of reasons, that wasn't possible. I would've cast someone new, a successful business man who would've challenged Van on multiple levels. I'm not sure Justin would've worked, as the OG Justin really wasn't a fan of Vanessa's either. Maybe this would've been the time to cast a suave Dietrich Lindsey to stir Springfield up and challenge Spaulding's media division. I can't really think of an established character from the past that would've worked.

Phillip and Vanessa's relationship is mostly a function of their work, in spite of the fact he was briefly married to her stepdaughter, the mother of his cousin and she was briefly engaged to his father. The only time they interact on a more direct level is when Roger is first worming his way into Spaulding. Vanessa is wary of Roger's influence on Blake, and tries warning Phillip, which he ignores. And when Roger manipulates Vanessa's firing, Phillip really stands up for her with Alexandra, to no avail.

4 hours ago, Spoon said:

Which crazed fanbase was the most toxic? Mattesa? Rassie? Manny?

1. Manny

2. Rassie

3. (or way down on the list) ***ressa fans who I don't recall being toxic, just simply vocal (and IMO, misguided) or at least able to convince TIIC they were. How the network's smallest viewership manipulated SID polls to consistently get them and later Manny in the top five was always a bit fishy.

Edited 28 minutes ago28 min by P.J.

16 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I actually liked Reva as a character during the two year period when Josh was off the canvas. It kind of opened up the character to different stories/characters especially in 1986 when she was trying to build a life on her own terms and was interacting with characters she didn't normally interact with.

That was a great period for the character, (Kim got another Emmy) buying a house, getting a job...being bullied at work (Claire) interacting with characters outside the Lewis sphere, having a guy friend that wasnt in love with her (Fletcher.) This is why I hate when they brought her back she was not eager to make her own life outside of Josh..she relies on Alan's money (and he has reason to be pissed at her, he is bankrolling her life and return) then Buzz for the dumb marriage thing. I wanted to see her back at the Journal working or doing something besides having a man worship her. The next time she has a job she is a talk show host !!!!

Reva is self centered, its part of her character and Long wrote it as a bad trait and she had people ...not liking her (Alex, India) where Rauch has her self centered and holier then tho, and NO one but Annie says a word against her. Once Cassie comes along there are two self righteous shrews running around town!